Alternative To Caffeine? Dopamine Agonist Without GABA Antagonism/NMDA Agonism?

[ImprovingDaily]

So I'm in a bit of a conundrum. I have a love hate relationship with caffeine. I love the energy and dopamine boost it gives me. I hate the anxiety I get from it . I'm a bit of an anxious guy which I developed later in life. Whenever I take a GABA agonist or NMDA antagonist, it greatly reduces my anxiety, especially social anxiety. Problem is I don't have the energy or motivation to do anything without caffeine. I've tried no caffeine for months and it severely messes with my energy levels to the point of affecting work.

So my question is, what are the alternatives? Any experiences with successful alternates?

Things that I've tried that are hit or miss
-Lisuride
-Tyrosine
-DHEA (increases estrogen too much for me)
-Pregnenolone (Decent, but at times feels like it increases my estrogen)

I've also tried caffeine with GABA agonists like Theanine and Taurine, but it doesn't seem to be enough GABA agonist to offset the caffeine.

 

[ddjd]

Have you tried regular B6 (not p5p). It can give an incredible dopamine boost

 

[ImprovingDaily]

Have you tried regular B6 (not p5p). It can give an incredible dopamine boost

I've tried p5p but not the regular one. I'm curious what the difference is between the 2. P5P feels dopaminergic but not enough to replace caffeine.

 

[Herbie]

How do you take your coffee?

Ray said to add sugar to coffee until no adrenalin effects.

Personally 5-8 sugars in a coffee does me well.

 

[lampofred]

Caffeine blocks GABA-A activity but GABA-B activity also helps to reduce anxiety. GABA-B activity is promoted by low estrogen and high progesterone (and also by meditation). High dopamine + high GABA-B = you're the smoothest guy ever.

 

[SOMO]

Ephedra (Ma Huang) is a very mild stimulant with mild-to-potent-dopamine effects (depending on dosage) and unlike Psuedoephedrine or amphetamines, is not really vasoconstrictive or cardiotoxic (or addictive).
On the contrary, Ephedra is used for sinus issues in TCM (traditional Chinese medicine.) I actually think Ephedra is less stimulating than black coffee and I get anxiety from too much caffeine, but do not feel that way on ephedra.

The only issue is obviously sourcing it.


I would go to your nearest Chinatown and visit the shops there and ask around. I think it's worth it.

 

[ImprovingDaily]

How do you take your coffee?

Ray said to add sugar to coffee until no adrenalin effects.

Personally 5-8 sugars in a coffee does me well.

I put a ton of sugar in my coffee, ever since peating my sweettooth is well satisfied. I usually sweeten until it tastes good, which is quite a lot. The anxiety doesn't feel like adrenaline though, it's like a nervous restlessness.

 

[ImprovingDaily]

Ephedra (Ma Huang) is a very mild stimulant with mild potent-dopamine effects and unlike Psuedoephedrine or amphetamines, is not really vasoconstrictive or cardiotoxic. On the contrary, Ephedra is used for sinus issues in TCM (traditional Chinese medicine.) I actually think Ephedra is less stimulating than black coffee and I get anxiety from too much caffeine, but do not feel that way on ephedra.

The only issue is obviously sourcing it.


I would go to your nearest Chinatown and visit the shops there and ask around. I think it's worth it.

Very interesting, I'll have to try this out. Thanks!

 

[ImprovingDaily]

Caffeine blocks GABA-A activity but GABA-B activity also helps to reduce anxiety. GABA-B activity is promoted by low estrogen and high progesterone (and also by meditation). High dopamine + high GABA-B = you're the smoothest guy ever.

I like Progesterone, have seen much benefit from it, but it doesn't seem to take away what anxiety caffeine gives me. Maybe I'm missing GABA -a activity

 

[General Orange]

You can try Yohimbe, Mucuna pruriens (L-Dopa) roasted seeds or extract, Yerba Maté, or high dose of ginseng; combine it with Passionflower or Lemon Balm for the GABA. Passion flower made me anxious, lemon balm worked better.

 

[ddjd]

I've tried p5p but not the regular one. I'm curious what the difference is between the 2. P5P feels dopaminergic but not enough to replace caffeine.

Regular b6 pyridoxine hydrochloride has a completely different effect. Huge dopamine increase. P5p doesn't really compare

 

[ddjd]

Ephedra (Ma Huang) is a very mild stimulant with mild-to-potent-dopamine effects (depending on dosage) and unlike Psuedoephedrine or amphetamines, is not really vasoconstrictive or cardiotoxic (or addictive).
On the contrary, Ephedra is used for sinus issues in TCM (traditional Chinese medicine.) I actually think Ephedra is less stimulating than black coffee and I get anxiety from too much caffeine, but do not feel that way on ephedra.

The only issue is obviously sourcing it.


I would go to your nearest Chinatown and visit the shops there and ask around. I think it's worth it.

Same as ephedrine?

 

[SOMO]

Same as ephedrine?

Sort of, Ma Huang/Ephedra Sinica/Mormon Tea (all names for the same plant) is the whole plant.
Ephedrine is the MAIN chemical in Ma Huang/Ephedra/Mormon Tea. (Kind of like how Green Tea is the whole plant, but Caffeine and Theophylline are constituents of the whole plant.)

I think in some countries you can still buy pure Ephedrine tablets for cough or sinus symptoms. In the US you can only get PSUEDO-Ephedrine which seems to work quite differently.

Ephedra also contains tannins as well (the ephedra tea tastes woodsy and bitter, sort of like green tea if you accidentally dropped some oatmeal in it) and has a moderately bitter taste. Ephedra looks like small green/yellow twigs and you can grind it in a coffee grinder and dissolve it in hot water to make tea. Simply putting the twigs in hot water doesn't seem to do much because they're very cellulose-ey.

You can try Yohimbe, Mucuna pruriens (L-Dopa) roasted seeds or extract, Yerba Maté, or high dose of ginseng; combine it with Passionflower or Lemon Balm for the GABA. Passion flower made me anxious, lemon balm worked better.

I would advise against Yohimbe.

I had a negative reaction with significant hypertension + tachycardia/rapid heart beat + sweating + cold/clammy hands and that was after just 1 Yohimbe pill. I'm fairly certain Yohimbe could give someone a cardiac event (heart attack?) if they're prone to such an event or have pre-existing heart issues (taking yohimbe would be a bad time to find out your heart is sensitive to strong stimulants). I think Yohimbe is just too powerful for some lol.

 

[Catecholamine]

Regular b6 pyridoxine hydrochloride has a completely different effect. Huge dopamine increase. P5p doesn't really compare

Does tolerance develop to it or not?

 

[Daft]

Taurine seems to increase dopamine as far as I can tell

 

[johnwester130]

increasing dopamine depletes b6

I can't find the study at the moment

 

[Daft]

increasing dopamine depletes b6

I can't find the study at the moment

Is it a co factor in it's production?

 

[mayweatherking]

increasing dopamine depletes b6

I can't find the study at the moment

hi, thanks for this. i was thinking about this comment for the last 2 hours while i was running errands. i found a study, maybe it is the one you are referring to:

Dopamine is a commonly used pressor agent. Frequently recognized side effects other than occasional reports of pedal gangrene respond to reduction of dose. Because a number of compounds interfere with vitamin B6 and dopamine toxicity in animals is modified by B6, we studied the dopamine-vitamin B6 interaction in rabbits. Six animals received 40 mg dopamine/kg and 10 mg pyridoxine injections; 6 received dopamine and saline. Dopamine administration led to an average fall of 20% (p = 0.04) in plasma pyridoxal 5'-phosphate (PLP) levels, which declined 42% by day 5. Three days later, a 25% decrease persisted (p = 0.03). Dopamine with pyridoxine caused a PLP rise of 65% (p = 0.007), but the post-study level was 28% lower than baseline (p = 0.04). We interpret our data to mean that dopamine reduced PLP levels during and 3 days after the study, and that dopamine appeared to increase the requirements for B6. We worry that dopamine given with other drugs, ie gentamicin, digoxin and theophylline which are frequently used in critical care settings, could aggravate alterations of requirements for or body stores of vitamin B6, creating B6 deficiency.
Depression of vitamin B6 levels due to dopamine. - PubMed - NCBI



i was wondering, this is going to sound controversial, but what if porn was able to deplete b6 through it's ability to increase dopamine? or entertainment addiction or something? i think it is possible.

 

[KyleKingsly]

Regular b6 pyridoxine hydrochloride has a completely different effect. Huge dopamine increase. P5p doesn't really compare

Have you tried both? Everything I've read seems to indicate that p5p would be better because it's the activated form of the vitamin b6. Additionally, I read that pyridoxine hydrochloride can cause nerve damage at higher doses.

 

[ddjd]

Have you tried both? Everything I've read seems to indicate that p5p would be better because it's the activated form of the vitamin b6. Additionally, I read that pyridoxine hydrochloride can cause nerve damage at higher doses.

well i can only talk from experience, p5p is good but has completely different effects than regular b6 for me