All The Peat Stuff. Not Too Bad. Except

[thebigpeatowski]

I originally got into ray peat and I believed the high fat intake had caused my issues. Its now clear it was the caloric restriction and absence of carbs, that were the main issues.

This was my experience too, exactly. I did an ultra low fat diet two years ago to get rid of most of my excess body fat and it worked very well to drop 38 pounds. However, for me, it was NOT sustainable in the long run. I went back to eating more fat (due to intense cravings) and my sleep improved dramatically. Also, my energy levels are much more steady.

I haven't gained any body fat from eating more fat, in fact I've started losing again (albeit slowly)...I attribute this to more movement, cutting out refined sugar and cow products (I use only full fat goat/sheep dairy) and better sleep from the higher fat intake. I have 9 more pounds to lose in order to reach my goal and I'm still able to put on muscle despite being a 50 year old female.

 

[keith]

I do thank you for this suggestion, it is embarrassing I wasn't aware of this possibility, though looking at google this seems to be well established effect of higher protein intake. My last meal of the day at around 8PM comes up to over 50 grams of protein (250g farmers cheese and half a liter of milk, +lots of honey), which is on top of 120 grams I eat earlier in the day. On my work out days I eat about 230 grams of proteins.

I have been trying to figure this out too, and just had the same reaction. I actually remember reading something by Dr. Peat that said it was better to eat protein earlier in the day and make your evening meal mostly carbs and fat and I don't remember where I saw it, but do remember not really understanding why, and sort of dismissing it for that reason, but I usually have my biggest protein meal of the day at night. Hmmmm.

 

[Blossom]

I was going to take a stab at explaining the protein at night thing but I remembered that @Mittir had already explained it much better than I ever could!
Eating chicken and human temperature
Mittir wrote
"Did you eat that amount before or after sunset. If i eat steak for dinner i do not feel good the next day.
Tryptophan in muscle meat can increase serotonin after dark, that disrupts sleep.
This is why RP recommends eating mostly carb and fat after sunset. Digestion also slows down in the night
and causing endotoxin problems. Protein are harder to digest."

 

[Peater Piper]

While I don't put much weight in anectodal information. I eat a lot of fat. I will drink a pint of heavy cream in a sitting sometimes. I assure you I am far from metabolically damaged. And this was NOT the case just a short time ago. I originally got into ray peat and I believed the high fat intake had caused my issues. Its now clear it was the caloric restriction and absence of carbs, that were the main issues. In fact I am healthier and stronger than all of the 20 somethings I train. And they are all bigger than me.

Thanks for clarifying what you meant by low fat and ketosis in another thread. Can I ask what a typical day's worth of food looks like for you? How many grams of carbs and fat? I've found I can eat moderate carb and quite a bit of fat and feel good, but I can't get much over 25 grams of carbs at a very high fat meal or my glucose goes nuts (much more so than it would if I didn't eat the fat at all). Transient insulin resistance is fine for a few hours so long as blood glucose is staying at a moderate level, but some of us seem to be really limited by how many carbs we can eat with our fat. If I ate to taste I'd be around 40% for both fat and carbs, but this seems to be the absolute worst for my blood glucose.

 

[James IV]

All good points, and I agree with the statement regarding low protein vegans. That is likely part of the issue.

I couldn't tell you my macros. I eat different types of foods on different days. I go by cravings and how much glycolytic activity im doing mostly.

Contrary to how it sounds, my diet is mostly composed of "peat" foods. I get most of my carbs from fruit and sugar. And I avoid PUFA, except from some whole food sources like some nuts and guacamole here and there.

I just have a "floating" macro diet. It's likely lower in carbs than what is considered modern "peat." But I think that is more interpretation rather than his views. I don't think he reccomendations blanket macros. He's said a diet can be up to %50 fat and be healthy. And his older work was even more fat agnostic. I also have days where I eat a lot of carbs.

Conciously restricting any macro doesn't seem to work for me in the long term. And I actually stay stronger and leaner when I eat everything.

I guess my main point is that getting leaner will make your healthier most of the time. And the hard part of getting lean is dieting. For real life people, controlling carbs seems to make fat loss easier, and give them great steady energy and sleep. With very few exceptions lowering fat makes everything more difficult, and causes energy levels to be all over the place. Again, this is for real life people, not weirdos like us that study this stuff relentlessly.

 

[James IV]

Thanks for clarifying what you meant by low fat and ketosis in another thread. Can I ask what a typical day's worth of food looks like for you? How many grams of carbs and fat? I've found I can eat moderate carb and quite a bit of fat and feel good, but I can't get much over 25 grams of carbs at a very high fat meal or my glucose goes nuts (much more so than it would if I didn't eat the fat at all). Transient insulin resistance is fine for a few hours so long as blood glucose is staying at a moderate level, but some of us seem to be really limited by how many carbs we can eat with our fat. If I ate to taste I'd be around 40% for both fat and carbs, but this seems to be the absolute worst for my blood glucose.

I think this is fairly common. Unless you go very low fat (and maybe even then), massive doses of carbs in a sitting will likely destabilize your blood sugar unless you just exercised, or exercise directly after. I beleive that may be the reason many succesfull high carb folks naturally lean towards endurance activities. It may be out of nessecity.
My blood sugar tends to stay up for longer after a higher carb mixed meal as well. Which is part of the reason I tend to eat most of my carbs with my last meal, when I want it to stay up while I sleep.

 

[YuraCZ]

All good points, and I agree with the statement regarding low protein vegans. That is likely part of the issue.

I couldn't tell you my macros. I eat different types of foods on different days. I go by cravings and how much glycolytic activity im doing mostly.

Contrary to how it sounds, my diet is mostly composed of "peat" foods. I get most of my carbs from fruit and sugar. And I avoid PUFA, except from some whole food sources like some nuts and guacamole here and there.

I just have a "floating" macro diet. It's likely lower in carbs than what is considered modern "peat." But I think that is more interpretation rather than his views. I don't think he reccomendations blanket macros. He's said a diet can be up to %50 fat and be healthy. And his older work was even more fat agnostic. I also have days where I eat a lot of carbs.

Conciously restricting any macro doesn't seem to work for me in the long term. And I actually stay stronger and leaner when I eat everything.

I guess my main point is that getting leaner will make your healthier most of the time. And the hard part of getting lean is dieting. For real life people, controlling carbs seems to make fat loss easier, and give them great steady energy and sleep. With very few exceptions lowering fat makes everything more difficult, and causes energy levels to be all over the place. Again, this is for real life people, not weirdos like us that study this stuff relentlessly.

Exactly.. Carb intake depends on activity level and when carbs go down fats go little up and visa versa. Every time Im going low carb or low fat. My body is telling me wtf are you doing dude? Like you said on a low fat I will crush(hypoglycemia) so easily its not even funny.. low carb is total nonsense. Without zero glycogen you a are like zombie.. Zero energy to do anything.. For protein I was a bodybuilder for a long time with 2g per kg of body weight without a problem. Now I was trying much lower protein intake and then even lower 30-40g day and my metabolism was in the toilet. I will stay around 100g which is Peat approved. This amount feels good to me (I have 83 kg) But my protein sources is different from bodybuilding years for sure. Back then it was about lean meat. Now I see it's not a good idea = bad calcium-phosphorus ratio, iron etc..

 

[tara]

See attched crono-meter screenshots.
I'm at about 2500 calories, on workout days it is about 3000.
The picture in my original post IS MY ACTUAL diet, I made that pic with my son. Including the amounts. I eat pretty much 3 times a day, with my last meal being at 8PM (pictured as "dinner").

I supplement K2 (MK-9, 1000g), D2 (8000 IU) and magnesium (1000mg) daily, ...E (400 IU) once a week, aspirin (500mg) once or twice a week. I am objectively low in manganese, dont even know what that is.

This looks like enough calories for a healthy average-height man who is not exceptionally physically active.
My hunch would be to experiment with adding in some potatoes or rice in some form you can enjoy, or if you are keen to see if you can make it work for you while avoiding starches, try adding in a snack between meals and before bed.
I imagine it's a good idea to at least meet RDI of manganese.

 

[DesertRat]

If you don't succeed with diet, there's an OTC product in the US called Famotidine which supports the hepatic storage of glycogen. In standard non-Peat naturopathic endocrinology, waking at night to pee associates with malabsorption issues --so you may look in this direction as well.

 

[Richiebogie]

the 500 grams of farmers cheese I eat every day is very low fat (0.5%)

That's a lot of cheese! It seems to be missing from your cronometer extract... Is it equivalent to the 1.25 litres of skim milk or in addition to?

We tend to think of muscle as lumps of protein but it could be closer to lumps of glycogen = digested starch.

I think this is what Tara and Westside are suggesting.

Try swapping that low fat cheese for 700g of white and sweet potatoes with say 50g of full fat cheese and some bolognese sauce with chives or spring onions.

 

[aquaman]

The picture in my original post IS MY ACTUAL diet, I made that pic with my son. Including the amounts. I eat pretty much 3 times a day, with my last meal being at 8PM (pictured as "dinner")

What time is breakfast?

I'm assuming it's 5-6 hours between meals? Could be stress hormones combined with stress from training that limits your muscle growth.

Can you sip collagen OJ with a bit of extra sugar between meals? And eat a bit earlier. For me 6.30pm is great as the final main meal

 

[Two Devided by Zero]

This looks like enough calories for a healthy average-height man who is not exceptionally physically active.
My hunch would be to experiment with adding in some potatoes or rice in some form you can enjoy, or if you are keen to see if you can make it work for you while avoiding starches, try adding in a snack between meals and before bed.
I imagine it's a good idea to at least meet RDI of manganese.

Well at 6'7'', hardly an average height.
Thanks Tara for the well meant advise, but trying to be fairly strict with my diet, I'd have an issue going the starch way, in light of Peat's well known - and pretty sensible and well argued negative position on starch..
But yeah I have now implemented OJ in my before bed routine.

If you don't succeed with diet, there's an OTC product in the US called Famotidine which supports the hepatic storage of glycogen. In standard non-Peat naturopathic endocrinology, waking at night to pee associates with malabsorption issues --so you may look in this direction as well.

You got my attention on this one. Care to tell more? How will I find out? Or more importantly, what symptoms do I have to fake so that my lazy **** doctor does the necessary tests? I'm afraid a night time urination won't be enough.

That's a lot of cheese! It seems to be missing from your cronometer extract... Is it equivalent to the 1.25 litres of skim milk or in addition to?

We tend to think of muscle as lumps of protein but it could be closer to lumps of glycogen = digested starch.

I think this is what Tara and Westside are suggesting.

Try swapping that low fat cheese for 700g of white and sweet potatoes with say 50g of full fat cheese and some bolognese sauce with chives or spring onions.

Nope, the cheese is definitely there under Quark (Magertopfen), which means farmers cheese in Austrian, or German. Those 1.25 liters of milk is on top of that.

What's with the all the starch recommendations people? Peat would spin in his grave if he knew how starches are pushed in the forums bearing his name.

What time is breakfast?

I'm assuming it's 5-6 hours between meals? Could be stress hormones combined with stress from training that limits your muscle growth.

Can you sip collagen OJ with a bit of extra sugar between meals? And eat a bit earlier. For me 6.30pm is great as the final main meal

Actually 5-6 hours is not correct, my bad, come to think of it I somehow always find something to shove in there, or rather, I stretch each of the 3 meals over a longer time, like I have eggs and OJ first thing in the morning, and then milk, cheese and honey 45 minutes later, just before i leave house. It's all breakfast. Same with lunch, spread over few hours, with milk and OJ being drank at least 2 hours after I eat meat/cheese+ fruit, or I just sip it throughout the afternoon.

As a result, I am rarely really hungry. But you're right, it certainly wouldn't be wise to go 5 or 6 hours with no meal. I wouldn't do that.

 

[tara]

Well at 6'7'', hardly an average height.

Exactly. And trying to gain mass by lifting heavy weights. Quite possibly not enough.

What's with the all the starch recommendations people? Peat would spin in his grave if he knew how starches are pushed in the forums bearing his name.

Hopefully he won't be in his grave for a while yet. :) I believe Peat has discussed some of the downsides of starchy foods, said sweet ripe fruit sugars are preferable, that starches should be avoided by people with unfavourable balance of gut microbiota, and that starches can make blood glucose management harder in some contexts. Also that grains can have unfavourable mineral balance and anti-nutrients. He's also spoken favourably about potatoes and root vegetables from time to time, and the potato juice process as only relevant for people with severely compromised digestion.
I think he has said he seldom goes an hour without drinking something sweet. My guess is that if you can refuel continuously, sticking to sugars may be more workable than if you were trying to last for several hours between meals.
Are you avoiding starch for theoretical reasons of Peat's, or because you can actually tell you do better without it? If you can get enough fuel in without it, and it's working for you, I'm not going to push you to eat starch. Just something to consider trying in small or moderate quantities if what you're doing is not working.

 

[keith]

Not sure if you ever found a fix. I thought I read or heard that RP sometimes took 500 mg aspirin before bed to help him sleep. Didn't look for the source, don't know if it is true, but tried it one night when I didn't sleep well the night before and slept straight through the night for the first time in years. 700 mg seems to be perfect for me. I can generally sleep 8 hours at least without getting up to pee now. Might be worth trying if aspirin doesn't disagree with you.

 

[keith]

Oh, and 70 mg caffeine seems to improve the effect. That amount seems to be enough to work without adversely impacting sleep. I take that with dinner, and the aspirin just before bed.

 

[Regina]

“It should be remembered that amino acids, especially in eggs, stimulate insulin secretion, and that this can cause hypoglycemia, which in turn causes cortisol secretion. Eating fruit (or other carbohydrate), coconut oil, and salt at the same meal will decrease this effect of the protein. Magnesium carbonate and epsom salts can also be useful and safe supplements, except when the synthetic material causes an allergic bowel reaction.” -Ray Peat, PhD

“When our glucose (glycogen) stores have been depleted, we convert our own tissue into free amino acids, some of which are used to produce new glucose. The amino acids cysteine and tryptophan, released in large quantities during stress, have antimetabolic (thyroid-suppressing) and, eventually, toxic effects.”-Ray Peat

“Insulin release is also stimulated by amino acids such as leucine, and insulin stimulates cells to absorb amino acids and to synthesize proteins. Since insulin lowers blood sugar as it disposes of amino acids, eating a large amount of protein without carbohydrate can cause a sharp decrease in blood sugar. This leads to the release of adrenalin and cortisol, which raise the blood sugar. Adrenalin causes fatty acids to be drawn into the blood from fat stores, especially if the liver’s glycogen stores are depleted, and cortisol causes tissue protein to be broken down into amino acids, some of which are used in place of carbohydrate. Unsaturated fatty acids, adrenaline, and cortisol cause insulin resistance.”- Ray Peat

“Blood sugar falls at night, and the body relies on the glucose stored in the liver as glycogen for energy, and hypothyroid people store very little sugar. As a result, adrenalin and cortisol begin to rise almost as soon as a person goes to bed, and in hypothyroid people, they rise very high, with the adrenalin usually peaking around 1 or 2 A.M., and the cortisol peaking around dawn; the high cortisol raises blood sugar as morning approaches, and allows adrenalin to decline. Some people wake up during the adrenalin peak with a pounding heart, and have trouble getting back to sleep unless they eat something. If the night-time stress is very high, the adrenalin will still be high until breakfast, increasing both temperature and pulse rate. The cortisol stimulates the breakdown of muscle tissue and its conversion to energy, so it is thermogenic, for some of the same reasons that food is thermogenic." -Ray Peat

Processing protein requires energy. While a certain amount of protein intake is necessary and healthful, the wrong amount, at the wrong time, in the wrong meal context can cause problems. This is from experience and memory but too much protein at any time can cause hypoglycemia;

“Decreased blood sugar is a basic signal for the release of adrenal hormones.” - Ray Peat

“Since glucose and salt are used to treat shock (intravenous 7.5% salt solutions are effective), it seems appropriate to use carbohydrate (preferably sugar, rather than starch) and salty foods during the night, to minimize the stress reaction. They lower adrenalin and cortisol, and help to maintain the volume and fluidity of blood. Thyroid, to maintain adequate carbon dioxide, is often all it takes to improve the blood levels of salt, glucose, and adrenalin.”-Ray Peat

Considering that nighttime; the lack of light itself, is energetically costly, it's possible the utilization of protein is not ideal during this time.

So how to ensure good sleep while eating adequate protein?

Consume the protein with more sugar, sweetened milk with a dash of salt is good I think

Consider consuming a majority of protein in the daytime and supplying enough sugar before sleep to ensure glycogen stay topped off and prevent hypoglycemia.

That is what has helped me.

I got some of the quotes from the link before and I think the advice therein is sound. Also have you tried increasing sodium intake. I find I feel better at a huge amount but still to taste (like 15g a day) coming from a sports and bodybuilding background where I likely didn't get enough. Best of luck!


http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/06/12/10-tips-for-better-sleep/

Fantastic quotes. Thx for posting the link!

 

[X3CyO]

Youre drinking a lot of milk, extremely tall, eating copious amounts of protein (albeit for your size, you do require slightly more than the average), take in a good amount of liquid, and salt intake is.. low. Very low.

Ill take a couple shots just to think about.

Too much protein
Not enough salt
Possibly too much progesterone from milk, if not estrogen (which decreases testosterone)
Not enough essential minerals, and possibly vitamins.. particularly the water soluble variety.

Liver glycogen storing function can be improved and might be overworking from the above.

Solution?
Drop protein
Raise carbs via sugar (improve thyroid and insulin) and and or potato (for weight gain via caloric excess and stronger insulin response post workout)
take a multivitamin/vegetable broth/ red bull
add salt
Slowly work up caffiene tolerance to around 600mg throughout the day, for decent liver function.
Add on a little body fat if less than 10% body fat (muscle burns fat passively/ you can always cut it off later)


Youre getting a great amount of nutrients from liver, but rejecting other nutrient dense stuff like vegetable broth, or a multivitamin we tend to miss out on a lot of different minerals crucial for the body. That, and a peat diet increases bodily need for all nutrients. You got your fat solubles though, even through supplements too, thats great.


Id reccomend salting and sugaring your liquids if youre gonna insist on the no starches, otherwise very well cooked starches with coconut oil (to halt starch perabsorption) will be fine. I only eat potatoes fried in coconut oil in regards to starch, and since, my temps have only gone up.


To be strictly peat and thrive as such you must live peats lifestyle, which to me seems to be moreso mentally stimulating and longevity promoting more than anything instead of physical. But, with proper adjustments....


Good luck

 

[Hgreen56]

I think I would experiment with less protein (1g per lb of lean mass is more than enough), possibly less
carbohydrate, definitely more fat. The body can only use so much glucose at once. The lower your fat intake, the smaller and more often you will need to eat. They guys at my gym that are very low fat eat 8-12 meals a day and often sleep poorly, or have to wake up to eat through the night.

Fat slows digestion, and also causes transient insulin resistance. Which gets a bad rap simply because it has insulin resistance in its name. But this is a good and perfectly natural thing. It keeps sugar in your blood longer, so it can be used for many hours. It takes very little sugar to maintain blood glucose.

The more fat you eat, the less often you need to refuel. This is particularly important at night if you don't want catabolic hormones kicking in for energy while you're trying to sleep. It also makes life a hell of a lot simpler when you don't have to worry about trying to maintain blood sugar by eating constantly.
Eating 1-3 meals a day is no issue, and getting through the night like a log, is the norm.

Oh, and fat, particularly dairy fat, is very anabolic. It will definitely help with the muscle issue. When I was low fat I couldn't put on muscle either. I was getting skinny despite lifting regularly. I upped my fat (a lot) and I literally changed my physique in weeks. It also helps that you will feel a heck of a lot stronger.

Hello james Szat
you and the guys have poor insulin sensitivity.

1. On high-carbohydrate intakes, do you find yourself getting pumped and full or sloppy and bloated? If the former, you have good insulin sensitivity; if the latter, you don’t.
2. When you eat a large carbohydrate meal, do you find that you have steady and stable energy levels or do you get an energy crash/sleep and get hungry about an hour later? If the former, you probably have normal/low levels of insulin secretion; if the latter, you probably tend to over-secrete insulin which is causing blood glucose to crash which is making you sleepy and hungry.
   
3. https://bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/insulin-sensitivity-and-fat-loss

how to increase sensitivity? to eat a low fat diet.

an obese person should probably try to normalise their body composition to a non-obese state. Doing so is by definition, "eating a high fat diet". ie: An obese man losing 2lbs of fat a week is "eating 2lbs of extra fat a week (from their own fat stores)".

The difference between actually eating that fat as dietary fat, and mobilising it from stores, is that the reduction of adipose stores also comes with systemic effects like improved insulin sensitivity, while eating dietary fat probably accentuates insulin resistance.
Tyw: Natural Bodybuilding Competition With RP's-style Diet

you and your "guys" had just had to do one thing, and that was going on with the low fat diet for a longer time, and the problems were solved on its own.
Now eating fat is just a bandage that stops the symptoms.

You need to know this ***t when you own a gym

edit: crap, i post this in a 4 year old topic...

 

[James IV]

Hello james Szat
you and the guys have poor insulin sensitivity.

how to increase sensitivity? to eat a low fat diet.

you and your "guys" had just had to do one thing, and that was going on with the low fat diet for a longer time, and the problems were solved on its own.
Now eating fat is just a bandage that stops the symptoms.

You need to know this ***t when you own a gym

edit: crap, i post this in a 4 year old topic...

So you start your own thread with a question that you 100% copy and pasted from a comment I made years ago, presenting it as your own thought. You take that same quote and use it as your profile signature. Then you respond to a 4 year old thread, just to make a response to another comment I made years ago. You stalking me bro? ...Sorry, I’m taken.

 

[Maljam]

So you start your own thread with a question that you 100% copy and pasted from a comment I made years ago, presenting it as your own thought. You take that same quote and use it as your profile signature. Then you respond to a 4 year old thread, just to make a response to another comment I made years ago. You stalking me bro? ...Sorry, I’m taken.

How come you are so bothered? I thought you'd left the forum?