All The Peat Stuff. Not Too Bad. Except

[Two Devided by Zero]

This is my daily meal routine (see the pic), has been for over a year. Due to my latent OCD I'm probably a stricter peatard than most people here (no pufas, no starch, no veggies except carrot, only good fruits, low fait strictly organic dairy etc)...and it also means i quite enjoy it...the order, the discipline, the predictability. And after all whats not to like, life is prety sweet with so much glucose and fructose.

I'm 40, 6'7" (200cm), 207 pounds (93kilos). Fairly fit due to heavy weights twice a week, skinny most of my young life, with some pounds (and waist inches) added as i was nearing 40. Realized its no good, tried paleo for about a year, went back to ultra skinny, felt good, started with weights, but kept on reading and browsing, finally stumbling onto Peat. Added some weight back on, but nothing major, and now going slowly down again. And oh yeah, diagnosed with Hashimotos, though the tsi and hormone levels still fine, so not on thyroid yet.

Even though i work as a senior manager in a financial institution, working in the socialist continental europe translates into a fairly easy going laid back work life, with family life being just as great. So essentially no stress, at least not on any conscious level. What does concern me however is my night time cortisol. I pee at night, at least once, sometimes twice. And i always give it a full bladder, so this is not some prostate irritation or false alarms. If i understand it correctly, night cortisol converts muscle tissue into glucose, with water being a byproduct, thus explaning my genuinly full bladder. It also explains why i make wirtually zero progress on the muscle building front, in spite very heavy weights, iron discipline, and high protein (close to 200g, 300g on workout days) and carb intake. Which is driving me crazy, because i don't enjoy the gym, i suffer for the looks, which are then eaten away while i sleep by the g** d*** corisol.

I have searched here and found some tips, but i haven't been able to reference any of it to Peat, which i find strange given his focus on stress and hormones. And while i have a high respect for many prople in here, having lurked for years, i do think the forums are often victim to the 'purple monkey dishwasher' syndrome. Which isn't ideal, considering its human health we're dealing with here.

So, any ideas what Peat might suggest?

(K2, D, taurine, lysine..all daily, aspirin and E a couple of times per week, about two tsp of salt a day, absolutely no refined sugar, only juices, shitload of honey and fruit, occasional cinamon to help with protein amonia, etc.)...my daytime cortisol (not fasting one..that they don't check here) is very average.

 

[meatbag]

“It should be remembered that amino acids, especially in eggs, stimulate insulin secretion, and that this can cause hypoglycemia, which in turn causes cortisol secretion. Eating fruit (or other carbohydrate), coconut oil, and salt at the same meal will decrease this effect of the protein. Magnesium carbonate and epsom salts can also be useful and safe supplements, except when the synthetic material causes an allergic bowel reaction.” -Ray Peat, PhD

“When our glucose (glycogen) stores have been depleted, we convert our own tissue into free amino acids, some of which are used to produce new glucose. The amino acids cysteine and tryptophan, released in large quantities during stress, have antimetabolic (thyroid-suppressing) and, eventually, toxic effects.”-Ray Peat

“Insulin release is also stimulated by amino acids such as leucine, and insulin stimulates cells to absorb amino acids and to synthesize proteins. Since insulin lowers blood sugar as it disposes of amino acids, eating a large amount of protein without carbohydrate can cause a sharp decrease in blood sugar. This leads to the release of adrenalin and cortisol, which raise the blood sugar. Adrenalin causes fatty acids to be drawn into the blood from fat stores, especially if the liver’s glycogen stores are depleted, and cortisol causes tissue protein to be broken down into amino acids, some of which are used in place of carbohydrate. Unsaturated fatty acids, adrenaline, and cortisol cause insulin resistance.”- Ray Peat

“Blood sugar falls at night, and the body relies on the glucose stored in the liver as glycogen for energy, and hypothyroid people store very little sugar. As a result, adrenalin and cortisol begin to rise almost as soon as a person goes to bed, and in hypothyroid people, they rise very high, with the adrenalin usually peaking around 1 or 2 A.M., and the cortisol peaking around dawn; the high cortisol raises blood sugar as morning approaches, and allows adrenalin to decline. Some people wake up during the adrenalin peak with a pounding heart, and have trouble getting back to sleep unless they eat something. If the night-time stress is very high, the adrenalin will still be high until breakfast, increasing both temperature and pulse rate. The cortisol stimulates the breakdown of muscle tissue and its conversion to energy, so it is thermogenic, for some of the same reasons that food is thermogenic." -Ray Peat

Processing protein requires energy. While a certain amount of protein intake is necessary and healthful, the wrong amount, at the wrong time, in the wrong meal context can cause problems. This is from experience and memory but too much protein at any time can cause hypoglycemia;

“Decreased blood sugar is a basic signal for the release of adrenal hormones.” - Ray Peat

“Since glucose and salt are used to treat shock (intravenous 7.5% salt solutions are effective), it seems appropriate to use carbohydrate (preferably sugar, rather than starch) and salty foods during the night, to minimize the stress reaction. They lower adrenalin and cortisol, and help to maintain the volume and fluidity of blood. Thyroid, to maintain adequate carbon dioxide, is often all it takes to improve the blood levels of salt, glucose, and adrenalin.”-Ray Peat

Considering that nighttime; the lack of light itself, is energetically costly, it's possible the utilization of protein is not ideal during this time.

So how to ensure good sleep while eating adequate protein?

Consume the protein with more sugar, sweetened milk with a dash of salt is good I think

Consider consuming a majority of protein in the daytime and supplying enough sugar before sleep to ensure glycogen stay topped off and prevent hypoglycemia.

That is what has helped me.

I got some of the quotes from the link before and I think the advice therein is sound. Also have you tried increasing sodium intake. I find I feel better at a huge amount but still to taste (like 15g a day) coming from a sports and bodybuilding background where I likely didn't get enough. Best of luck!


http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/06/12/10-tips-for-better-sleep/

 

[loess]

That rotation of foods is almost exactly what I stuck to for 2 years while recovering from total collapse (except for the octopus? I ate heaps of scallops though). As my system shifted more and more toward oxidative metabolism, I found that while I slept I burned through my liver's stored glucose very quickly each night and routinely woke up with symptoms of high cortisol and adrenaline. I started keeping a glass of salty OJ with lots of added sugar by the bed and would drink that when I was awoken, it put me right back to sleep, calmed my elevated heart rate and the tension caused by the cortisol. Another thing that helped was having a bit of ice cream before bed rather than something low fat.

I'd also double check yourself to make sure you're simply eating enough during the day. I found that it was very easy to undereat with such a limited selection of foods, especially when faced with social situations where I had no access to good food and hadn't brought any of my own to compensate.

 

[Two Devided by Zero]

Some interesting quotes and advise guys, thanks. I especially appreciate the suggestions based on actual personal experience.

 

[tara]

Total carbohydrate and calorie estimates?
Meal timing?

My current impression, based on reading a lot of related threads here and a bit in other places, is that because:
- Fructose can be helpful for liver glycogen storage.
- Fructose is not much use for muscle glycogen storage.
- Healthy muscles can store a lot more glycogen than even a healthy liver, let alone a damaged/underfunctioning liver.
- Our tastes may tell us when we've had as much sugar as our systems can currently handle.

Therefore, for people who have larger and/or more active muscles, relying primarily on high-fructose (~halfish or more fructose) food sources may have these effects:
- It is harder to get enough glucose to refill muscle glycogen than by using a bit more high-glucose food (eg starchy foods or refined glucose).
- It may be easy to consume as much fructose as the system can handle in one go for restoring liver glycogen without getting enough glucose to restore muscle glycogen.
- If the liver is healthy, this may be an issue, but probably even more so if liver is struggling.
- Trying to run long periods between meals (eg 3 meals a day) could make this problem worse.
- It may be possible to make sugars work better by spreading refuelling over many times a day - eg every hour or so.

I guess you've seen some of tyw's posts on the subject of glucose/fructose?

There is also a theory (not Peat's) pointed to by westsidepufas about well-(wet)-cooked gelatinised starches having a special role in promoting insulin sensitivity that cannot be done by disaccharides or monosaccharides or dry-cooked starches. I don't know if this theory is well-founded or not.

Personally, I am a middle-aged woman currently doing not much exercise, and with some specific health issues, so not the same situation as you. But my experience with increasing my well-cooked starch consumption (I never stopped eating it, just was eating more sweet foods for a while) seems to have some advantages for me.

I'd say that there is probably not a perfect ratio that will be optimal for everyone at all times of life and all levels of activity. Different people here seem to do better with no starch, or various amounts of jasmine or sticky rice, potatoes, etc. Unless you have distressing negative reactions to starchy foods (as some do), I'd consider experimenting to see whether including a bit more high-glucose food might help.

 

[lindsay]

I second the salty OJ (with added sugar if needed). When I wake up and can't sleep, OJ usually puts me back to sleep - salt or no salt and I never add sugar. I never have to wake to urinate in the middle of the night - well rarely. I eat a lot of cheese at night though - the kind with lots of fat and salt. Not sure if it's a good thing, but maybe adding some fat and salt (and some sugar) before bed would help.

Were you put on thyroid hormone for your Hashimoto's?

P.S. I am jealous of your European farmers' cheese. I love that stuff (they have it in Eastern Europe too, and I ate it all the time when I lived there) - it's so hard to find here in the US!!! Delicious with a bit of honey :)

 

[tara]

I 3rd trying OJ by the bedside in case of waking.

 

[marikay]

I 3rd trying OJ by the bedside in case of waking.

+1

 

[Richiebogie]

If you only need 30-80g of protein a day, then your excess protein must be eliminated through the urine.

Human milk has a quarter the protein of cows milk.

Babies fed cows milk die of kidney failure and dehydration because the protein content is too high.

Their bodies attempt to urinate out the nitrogen waste products of ammonia and uric acid.

Maybe despite all your weightlifting you are just a big baby?

Try decreasing the protein and increasing the fruit sugar to increase the muscle.

 

[lollipop]

Total carbohydrate and calorie estimates?
Meal timing?

My current impression, based on reading a lot of related threads here and a bit in other places, is that because:
- Fructose can be helpful for liver glycogen storage.
- Fructose is not much use for muscle glycogen storage.
- Healthy muscles can store a lot more glycogen than even a healthy liver, let alone a damaged/underfunctioning liver.
- Our tastes may tell us when we've had as much sugar as our systems can currently handle.

Therefore, for people who have larger and/or more active muscles, relying primarily on high-fructose (~halfish or more fructose) food sources may have these effects:
- It is harder to get enough glucose to refill muscle glycogen than by using a bit more high-glucose food (eg starchy foods or refined glucose).
- It may be easy to consume as much fructose as the system can handle in one go for restoring liver glycogen without getting enough glucose to restore muscle glycogen.
- If the liver is healthy, this may be an issue, but probably even more so if liver is struggling.
- Trying to run long periods between meals (eg 3 meals a day) could make this problem worse.
- It may be possible to make sugars work better by spreading refuelling over many times a day - eg every hour or so.

I guess you've seen some of tyw's posts on the subject of glucose/fructose?

There is also a theory (not Peat's) pointed to by westsidepufas about well-(wet)-cooked gelatinised starches having a special role in promoting insulin sensitivity that cannot be done by disaccharides or monosaccharides or dry-cooked starches. I don't know if this theory is well-founded or not.

Personally, I am a middle-aged woman currently doing not much exercise, and with some specific health issues, so not the same situation as you. But my experience with increasing my well-cooked starch consumption (I never stopped eating it, just was eating more sweet foods for a while) seems to have some advantages for me.

I'd say that there is probably not a perfect ratio that will be optimal for everyone at all times of life and all levels of activity. Different people here seem to do better with no starch, or various amounts of jasmine or sticky rice, potatoes, etc. Unless you have distressing negative reactions to starchy foods (as some do), I'd consider experimenting to see whether including a bit more high-glucose food might help.

This is an awesome post @tara! Bookmarked

 

[James IV]

I think I would experiment with less protein (1g per lb of lean mass is more than enough), possibly less
carbohydrate, definitely more fat. The body can only use so much glucose at once. The lower your fat intake, the smaller and more often you will need to eat. They guys at my gym that are very low fat eat 8-12 meals a day and often sleep poorly, or have to wake up to eat through the night.

Fat slows digestion, and also causes transient insulin resistance. Which gets a bad rap simply because it has insulin resistance in its name. But this is a good and perfectly natural thing. It keeps sugar in your blood longer, so it can be used for many hours. It takes very little sugar to maintain blood glucose.

The more fat you eat, the less often you need to refuel. This is particularly important at night if you don't want catabolic hormones kicking in for energy while you're trying to sleep. It also makes life a hell of a lot simpler when you don't have to worry about trying to maintain blood sugar by eating constantly.
Eating 1-3 meals a day is no issue, and getting through the night like a log, is the norm.

Oh, and fat, particularly dairy fat, is very anabolic. It will definitely help with the muscle issue. When I was low fat I couldn't put on muscle either. I was getting skinny despite lifting regularly. I upped my fat (a lot) and I literally changed my physique in weeks. It also helps that you will feel a heck of a lot stronger.

 

[damngoodcoffee]

Fat slows digestion, and alsocauses transient insulin resistance. Which gets a bad rap simply because it has insulin resistance in its name. But this is a good and perfectly natural thing. It keeps sugar in your blood longer, so it can be used for many hours. It takes very little sugar to maintain blood glucose.

The more fat you eat, the less often you need to refuel. This is particularly important at night if you don't want catabolic hormones kicking in for energy while you're trying to sleep. It also makes life a hell of a lot simpler when you don't have to worry about trying to maintain blood sugar by eating constantly.
Eating 1-3 meals a day is no issue, and getting through the night like a log, is the norm.

@Westside PUFAs Your thoughts on this? And Westside, how long have you been eating low fat? Have you had blood sugar problems, and has it gotten better over time?

 

[Velve921]

For my athletes, the following puts on muscle with ease:

1. Ice cream with salt before bed time. Eat until no longer crave.

2. Epsom salt baths before bed 1-7x a week in warm water no hot.

Anecdotally, I've put on 30lbs of muscle in 2.25 years and only lifting 1x a week. My athletes have been putting on similar types of muscle.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

@Westside PUFAs Your thoughts on this? And Westside, how long have you been eating low fat? Have you had blood sugar problems, and has it gotten better over time?

I think this: "Just about everything that goes wrong involves FFA increase. If they are totally saturated fatty acids, such as from coconut oil and butter, those are less harmful, but they still tend to shift the mitochondrial cellular metabolism away from using glucose and fructose and turning on various stress related things; By lowering the carbon dioxide production I think is the main mechanism."-RP

I've been eating low fat since August of 2014, almost two years. I had pre type two diabetic symptoms and fixed it by going low fat. High fat proponents mostly use dairy fat as their "fuel." I think they just like whole milk and butter so much that they hate the thought of cutting down on it or giving it up. Some here claim to be in ketosis while drinking whole milk and eating fruit. All of that lactose and fruit is not ketosis. And they are not converting their dairy fat right into ketones. It must be stored as body fat first before being converted into ketones. So if a high fat proponent is truly not overweight and is as healthy as they claim, then their muscle tissue is somehow burning the free saturated fatty acids directly and not storing them as fat. I get all of the saturated fat I need from the fermentation of fiber, coconut, cacao fat, red palm fruit oil, and the small amount in the lean animal meats I eat. Too much fat clogs up my bloodstream with fat and blocks sugar from being used properly, too much fat causes blood sugar and mood problems, too much fat causes digestion problems and too much fat causes body fat gain. Too much fat makes me feel "fatted out" and exhausted. In order to store the absorbed sugar from fruit or starch as fat would require that some of it be converted into triglycerides first, which hasn't been my experience. Peat says the pufa you eat gets stored right away because your body wants to burn the sugar first. That right there is him saying that the fat you eat is the fat you wear, or the pufa you eat is the pufa you wear, only to be released at a later time. And he's also mentioned that dairy fat can cause fat gain, so this is what high fat proponents ignore. Saturated milk fat is required for babies during breastfeeding but after that we don't have the same need for it. It gives babies baby fat. And it gives adults adult fat. High fat proponents will then say "anything in excess makes you fat." But wait, that's not your argument. That's not their claim. Their claim is saturated fat does not make you fat under any circumstances. So don't backtrack and say "anything in excess makes you fat." Dairy fat is not a good source of fat soluble vitamins. It only has very small amounts of vitamin A and K2. D is synthecially added. If it was such a good source of vitamin A then why do so many people supplement A?

I also agree with these quotes.

 

[aquaman]

Total carbohydrate and calorie estimates?
Meal timing?

^^This is incredibly important

And especially when training, I need to combine starches with fruits. Fruit only makes me cold (ie lowered metabolism). Current favourite is roasted butternut squash.

FYI I'm 95kg at 6 foot 3, around 16% body fat. Lift weights 2-3 times a week heavy.

Edit: seems you're going low fat. With 800 calories from protein, that would mean you would need more than 1500 from carbs (assuming say 500 from fat), which if only from fruit would be around 3kg of fruit per day?! [fruits are around 1/6th carbs at a rough estimate). Are you adding honey or using dried fruits?

 

[damngoodcoffee]

I think this: "Just about everything that goes wrong involves FFA increase. If they are totally saturated fatty acids, such as from coconut oil and butter, those are less harmful, but they still tend to shift the mitochondrial cellular metabolism away from using glucose and fructose and turning on various stress related things; By lowering the carbon dioxide production I think is the main mechanism."-RP

Hard to argue with that. :)

Do you feel better now than in the beginning of low fat? Have you ever felt that this low fat diet just isn't satisfying you? Thanks!

 

[James IV]

I think this: "Just about everything that goes wrong involves FFA increase. If they are totally saturated fatty acids, such as from coconut oil and butter, those are less harmful, but they still tend to shift the mitochondrial cellular metabolism away from using glucose and fructose and turning on various stress related things; By lowering the carbon dioxide production I think is the main mechanism."-RP

I've been eating low fat since August of 2014, almost two years. I had pre type two diabetic symptoms and fixed it by going low fat. High fat proponents mostly use dairy fat as their "fuel." I think they just like whole milk and butter so much that they hate the thought of cutting down on it or giving it up. Some here claim to be in ketosis while drinking whole milk and eating fruit. All of that lactose and fruit is not ketosis. And they are not converting their dairy fat right into ketones. It must be stored as body fat first before being converted into ketones. So if a high fat proponent is truly not overweight and is as healthy as they claim, then their muscle tissue is somehow burning the free saturated fatty acids directly and not storing them as fat. I get all of the saturated fat I need from the fermentation of fiber, coconut, cacao fat, red palm fruit oil, and the small amount in the lean animal meats I eat. Too much fat clogs up my bloodstream with fat and blocks sugar from being used properly, too much fat causes blood sugar and mood problems, too much fat causes digestion problems and too much fat causes body fat gain. Too much fat makes me feel "fatted out" and exhausted. In order to store the absorbed sugar from fruit or starch as fat would require that some of it be converted into triglycerides first, which hasn't been my experience. Peat says the pufa you eat gets stored right away because your body wants to burn the sugar first. That right there is him saying that the fat you eat is the fat you wear, or the pufa you eat is the pufa you wear, only to be released at a later time. And he's also mentioned that dairy fat can cause fat gain, so this is what high fat proponents ignore. Saturated milk fat is required for babies during breastfeeding but after that we don't have the same need for it. It gives babies baby fat. And it gives adults adult fat. High fat proponents will then say "anything in excess makes you fat." But wait, that's not your argument. That's not their claim. Their claim is saturated fat does not make you fat under any circumstances. So don't backtrack and say "anything in excess makes you fat." Dairy fat is not a good source of fat soluble vitamins. It only has very small amounts of vitamin A and K2. D is synthecially added. If it was such a good source of vitamin A then why do so many people supplement A?

I also agree with these quotes.

Hard to argue with that. :)

Do you feel better now than in the beginning of low fat? Have you ever felt that this low fat diet just isn't satisfying you? Thanks!

Regarding Dr Peats quote, I have seen that many diseases are associated with high blood levels of FFA. However it's important to note that in general, lower carb eaters have lower blood levels of FFA because they are being burned at a much higher rate. This may not be true for extreme low (<10% calories) fat folks, but I've never come across any info on that,
and I find diets like that impossible to sustain for most folks. So it's te chicken and egg argument. Are the FFA's elevated because of the disease, or are the elevated FFA's making the person sick.

@WSP, I'm glad that low fat high carb is working for you. Seriously you seem to enjoy it very much, and That's awesome. For me it was slowly killing me.
Every single marker of health for me is significantly better on a high fat diet. I don't eat for ketosis, I still eat carbohydrate based on feel.

I am not a "proponent" of anything other than listening to your body, rather than listening to the Internet. However, I have not found all these claims about fat being metabolically damaging as compared to carbohydrate to be true, when applied to real humans. Quite the opposite.
I read all the papers and theories, but when it comes down to my own beliefs, I rely most on logic.
There is just too much information and observations in favor of a higher fat intake being more optimal for robust health. It's also of interest to note Dr Peat was a proponent of a high fat diet for many years.

If metabolism is essentially the balance between anabolism and catabolism, then higher fat intake is by far more anabolic. If carbs are so metabolically stimulating, and fat detrimental, why are higher (saturated) fat cultures so much bigger and stronger than low fat cultures? If fat slow metabolism, what have bodybuilders used high fat low carb diets for 40 years to build muscular, lean physiques. And why are almost all 80/10/10 and low fat high carb folks extremely catabolic, and skinny as rails.
I know durian rider, one of the most famous HCLF proponents recently posting his blood work, and his cholesterol was extremely low. He sees it as a good thing, I personally am not so sure.
I think it's important to differentiate between simply burning a ton of energy, and actually using that energy for growth an repair of cells. The former doesn't seem very useful IMO.

While I don't put much weight in anectodal information. I eat a lot of fat. I will drink a pint of heavy cream in a sitting sometimes. I assure you I am far from metabolically damaged. And this was NOT the case just a short time ago. I originally got into ray peat and I believed the high fat intake had caused my issues. Its now clear it was the caloric restriction and absence of carbs, that were the main issues. In fact I am healthier and stronger than all of the 20 somethings I train. And they are all bigger than me.

No one should take my word for anything other than food for thought. But please consider humans are a living, extremely adaptive organism. Ideas, theories, and things that seem to make so much sense on paper, do not always have the same effect when applied in the real an current world. Positive changes to diet will make you healthier very quickly. This idea that it takes years to get healthy is nonsense IMO. If you are doing all the "right" things and you aren't getting better. Maybe those things aren't right.

 

[YuraCZ]

I agree James.. Nothing is just black or white... Btw you are right about bodybuilders in 70s and 80s. They were anti carb and it was working. 90s and 2000 it was all about carbs, protein and avoidning much fat as possible. This was my era. Nothing but low fat protein sources nad a lot of carbs - rice, oats.. I was eating this diet maybe 8 years and I was HUGE maybe 115 kg for 177cm height. Now it's no more low carb or fat. Now its balanced and it works the same.. Everybody is obsessed with the perfect diet. But there is no single approach perfect for everyone. I must laugh really hard when I listen ignorant low carb or low fat fanatics..

 

[damngoodcoffee]

I've been quite enjoying low fat. Digestion has been better, mood is better, walking and bicycling doesn't feel so exhausting, feet don't get so numb when sitting in the toilet, less headaches. And to me, eating low fat foods is more pleasurable. The "satiety" from fattier food is not really satiety to me. It just feels uncomfortable.
I have to admit though that few hours after a fattier meal i feel a little "stronger" or something than when i just eat low fat all the time.

If metabolism is essentially the balance between anabolism and catabolism, then higher fat intake is by far more anabolic. If carbs are so metabolically stimulating, and fat detrimental, why are higher (saturated) fat cultures so much bigger and stronger than low fat cultures? If fat slow metabolism, what have bodybuilders used high fat low carb diets for 40 years to build muscular, lean physiques. And why are almost all 80/10/10 and low fat high carb folks extremely catabolic, and skinny as rails.
I know durian rider, one of the most famous HCLF proponents recently posting his blood work, and his cholesterol was extremely low. He sees it as a good thing, I personally am not so sure.

So maybe you're on to something here..
To be fair, those HCLF guys you're referring to are also low protein vegans..

 

[Two Devided by Zero]

Total carbohydrate and calorie estimates?
Meal timing?
I guess you've seen some of tyw's posts on the subject of glucose/fructose?

See attched crono-meter screenshots.
I'm at about 2500 calories, on workout days it is about 3000.
The picture in my original post IS MY ACTUAL diet, I made that pic with my son. Including the amounts. I eat pretty much 3 times a day, with my last meal being at 8PM (pictured as "dinner").

I supplement K2 (MK-9, 1000g), D2 (8000 IU) and magnesium (1000mg) daily, ...E (400 IU) once a week, aspirin (500mg) once or twice a week. I am objectively low in manganese, dont even know what that is.

Were you put on thyroid hormone for your Hashimoto's?

P.S. I am jealous of your European farmers' cheese. I love that stuff (they have it in Eastern Europe too, and I ate it all the time when I lived there) - it's so hard to find here in the US!!! Delicious with a bit of honey :)

No pills yet, the diagnoses was made on the basis of an ultrasound. T hormones are at ok levels, TSH at around 2.

Yes, European food is great, especially in Austria. Very clean, high quality, very reasonably priced. The free trade pact with the US will be a disaster for Europe, the polluted American garbage they call food will flow freely. Very sad.

If you only need 30-80g of protein a day, then your excess protein must be eliminated through the urine.

Human milk has a quarter the protein of cows milk.

Babies fed cows milk die of kidney failure and dehydration because the protein content is too high.

Their bodies attempt to urinate out the nitrogen waste products of ammonia and uric acid.

Maybe despite all your weightlifting you are just a big baby?

Try decreasing the protein and increasing the fruit sugar to increase the muscle.

I do thank you for this suggestion, it is embarrassing I wasn't aware of this possibility, though looking at google this seems to be well established effect of higher protein intake. My last meal of the day at around 8PM comes up to over 50 grams of protein (250g farmers cheese and half a liter of milk, +lots of honey), which is on top of 120 grams I eat earlier in the day. On my work out days I eat about 230 grams of proteins.

So yeah, this could explain the full bladder, but it doesn't explain my zero muscle gain from the weight lifting.

I think I would experiment with less protein (1g per lb of lean mass is more than enough), possibly less
carbohydrate, definitely more fat. The body can only use so much glucose at once. The lower your fat intake, the smaller and more often you will need to eat. They guys at my gym that are very low fat eat 8-12 meals a day and often sleep poorly, or have to wake up to eat through the night.

I appreciate the response, but this is way too non-Peat for me at this time. I started Peating with full fat milk, full fat greek yogurt and full fat farmers cheese (coming from Paleo). I switched to low fat diary after I started gaining noticeable subcutaneous fat. I do eat about 2 tbps of coconut oil a day, and the milk I drink is 1%, so I am definitely not zero fat.

On my meat days (liver, heart), the fat is actually a lot higher than what cronometer shows on my low fat mozzarella day below. And in fact, while the 500 grams of farmers cheese I eat every day is very low fat (0.5%), I have a full fat cheese whenever I crave it, which is like once a week. So i certainly don't deprive myself of fat, i just don't feel like I having it too often and too much of it.

To be fair, those HCLF guys you're referring to are also low protein vegans..

Indeed, not quite fair to be grouping malnourished vegans with low fat peatards like myself.