All Gut Bacteria Dangerous, Its Endotoxin Drives Liver Cancer; Antibiotics Cure

[CLASH]

@Kartoffel
I have seen that. I think thats more in the colon than in the small intestine. If you eat enough plant material I doubt this is an issue. I also question if this is an issue in humans considering we reabsorb our bile quite well before it hits the colon, from what I understand.

Btw for everyone above, i tried out probiotics for a a few weeks or so after my post above. Had to stop, I developed some gastro instestinl issues from them. Based on my experience I no longer can suggest them in good confidence.

 

[yerrag]

I don't agree with antibiotic use. I just went through a course of amoxicillin for a tooth abscess and I developed allergies again. Plus my tongue is white. Antibiotics are well known to cause yeast infections. There absolutely needs to be diversity and balance.

Antibiotics are a very broad class. I still don't really understand how to classify the many kinds available. It's very easy to paint them with a broad brush as either good or bad, and I use to avoid them like the plague. But lately, due to the repeated endorsements by Ray and by Danny Roddy and by Haidut and by ecstatichamster of a few of them, especially those of the tetracycline class, I got to try low-dose doxycycline for a month.

I was hoping there might be an inflammation angle to my hypertensive condition, but I was diaappointed it didn't help lower my bp.

But there was an unexpected result that was very very good. I lost the arthritic left knee pain that's bothred me for 20 years, and my seborrheic dermatitis took a breather. This has led to be to reconsider the role of bacteria in pathologies, and I've come to view its role in things usually considered purely degenerative or metabolic.

From a very naturopathic abhorrence of antibiotics, I've become a bit of a convert lately to some of it. I still don't buy the idea of a sterile gut though. I still believe that a wide variety of bacteria in a balanced microbiome innoculates us from being so easily downed by pathogens.

 

[TheBeard]

I don't agree with antibiotic use. I just went through a course of amoxicillin for a tooth abscess and I developed allergies again. Plus my tongue is white. Antibiotics are well known to cause yeast infections. There absolutely needs to be diversity and balance.

Including natural ones like fresh garlic?

 

[Hans]

What kind of improvements? Reduced bloating? Better digestion?

Lot of people mentioned seeing improvement, but they later come back commenting it was short-lived and they overall degraded.

I’m dying to see an improvement in my health: I’m constantly bloated, I’m never hungry, I lost 10kg in the past 2 years and I can hardly workout.

I always attributed my health going south to the few rounds of tetracyclines I took so I am having a hard time trusting they will get me back on track.

I tried the highest counts probiotics for one year, both orally and rectaly, fecal transplants, nothing alleviated my condition

How's your stress? Lots of people develop gut and digestion problems from chronic low grade stress.

 

[RisingSun]

Antibiotics are a very broad class. I still don't really understand how to classify the many kinds available. It's very easy to paint them with a broad brush as either good or bad, and I use to avoid them like the plague. But lately, due to the repeated endorsements by Ray and by Danny Roddy and by Haidut and by ecstatichamster of a few of them, especially those of the tetracycline class, I got to try low-dose doxycycline for a month.

I was hoping there might be an inflammation angle to my hypertensive condition, but I was diaappointed it didn't help lower my bp.

But there was an unexpected result that was very very good. I lost the arthritic left knee pain that's bothred me for 20 years, and my seborrheic dermatitis took a breather. This has led to be to reconsider the role of bacteria in pathologies, and I've come to view its role in things usually considered purely degenerative or metabolic.

From a very naturopathic abhorrence of antibiotics, I've become a bit of a convert lately to some of it. I still don't buy the idea of a sterile gut though. I still believe that a wide variety of bacteria in a balanced microbiome innoculates us from being so easily downed by pathogens.

Interesting.

Anything to note digestion wise? Bloating? Stool appearance?

 

[TheBeard]

How's your stress? Lots of people develop gut and digestion problems from chronic low grade stress.

I can’t say I’m stressed, I have it pretty easy.

Yes, like everyone I worry about the future on many levels, but nothing that causes physical stress on a chronic basis.

I really think I contracted some kind of parasite or bacteria after my repeated food poisonings in India and that it’s the cause of my poor appetite and weight loss.

I have tried 2 fresh garlic cloves + carrots and ACV everyday for 3 months straight, with bentonite clay & psyllium shakes twice a week and water enemas once a week. Nothing changed.

Nystatin enemas didn’t do anything either

 

[Hans]

I can’t say I’m stressed, I have it pretty easy.

Yes, like everyone I worry about the future on many levels, but nothing that causes physical stress on a chronic basis.

I really think I contracted some kind of parasite or bacteria after my repeated food poisonings in India and that it’s the cause of my poor appetite and weight loss.

I have tried 2 fresh garlic cloves + carrots and ACV everyday for 3 months straight, with bentonite clay & psyllium shakes twice a week and water enemas once a week. Nothing changed.

Nystatin enemas didn’t do anything either

Do you bloat from any food or only certain types?

 

[InChristAlone]

Antibiotics are a very broad class. I still don't really understand how to classify the many kinds available. It's very easy to paint them with a broad brush as either good or bad, and I use to avoid them like the plague. But lately, due to the repeated endorsements by Ray and by Danny Roddy and by Haidut and by ecstatichamster of a few of them, especially those of the tetracycline class, I got to try low-dose doxycycline for a month.

I was hoping there might be an inflammation angle to my hypertensive condition, but I was diaappointed it didn't help lower my bp.

But there was an unexpected result that was very very good. I lost the arthritic left knee pain that's bothred me for 20 years, and my seborrheic dermatitis took a breather. This has led to be to reconsider the role of bacteria in pathologies, and I've come to view its role in things usually considered purely degenerative or metabolic.

From a very naturopathic abhorrence of antibiotics, I've become a bit of a convert lately to some of it. I still don't buy the idea of a sterile gut though. I still believe that a wide variety of bacteria in a balanced microbiome innoculates us from being so easily downed by pathogens.

Yeah the tetracycline class may be different, it may be less broad especially if used in low enough doses. I guess my comment is too black and white, trying out low doses tetracycline couldn't hurt too bad.

Including natural ones like fresh garlic?

Yes including natural antibiotics, you can very easily wipe out your gut biome with oregano oil for instance.

 

[TheBeard]

Do you bloat from any food or only certain types?

Only raw meat doesn’t bloat me

 

[stsfut]

Frequent antibiotic rounds gave me a bad case of thrush that I’m just now getting over thanks to Diflucan...has that happened to nobody else?

 

[InChristAlone]

Frequent antibiotic rounds gave me a bad case of thrush that I’m just now getting over thanks to Diflucan...has that happened to nobody else?

Yeast tend to overgrow when not kept in balance with good bacteria. It seems like no one is addressing this. I mean if you are already in pretty good health you could probably keep yeast back enough to use some antibiotics, but for those not healthy and needing to use antibiotics it's clearly a concern. Not to mention the risk for C. Diff which is listed on the pamphlet of most antibiotics.

 

[haidut]

I don't agree with antibiotic use. I just went through a course of amoxicillin for a tooth abscess and I developed allergies again. Plus my tongue is white. Antibiotics are well known to cause yeast infections. There absolutely needs to be diversity and balance.

Fungal overgrowth is indeed common with prolonged antibiotic use. But most doctors are (or should be) aware of this and typically prescribe an antifungal with the antibiotic as well and that resolves the problem typically.
The issue with calls for balance is that nobody seems to be able to define what that balance is. If somebody were to ask you what a "balanced" microbiome is what would be your response? The fact of the matter remains that chronic exposure to endotoxin is now known to lead to virtually all chronic conditions currently known. So, one way or another, this endotoxemia needs to be addressed. What would be the "balanced" way to address endotoxemia in your opinion?

 

[InChristAlone]

Fungal overgrowth is indeed common with prolonged antibiotic use. But most doctors are (or should be) aware of this and typically prescribe an antifungal with the antibiotic as well and that resolves the problem typically.
The issue with calls for balance is that nobody seems to be able to define what that balance is. If somebody were to ask you what a "balanced" microbiome is what would be your response? The fact of the matter remains that chronic exposure to endotoxin is now known to lead to virtually all chronic conditions currently known. So, one way or another, this endotoxemia needs to be addressed. What would be the "balanced" way to address endotoxemia in your opinion?

Address thyroid function. The overgrowths of bad bacteria can be kept in check by good digestion. I am no expert in the gut biome, all I know is I have seen people get severe overgrowths from antibiotics, so it shouldn't be taken so lightly. I took them a lot as a kid for strep throat and ended up with IBS-C, which I fixed by eliminating hard to digest fiber and vitamin C. It will come back though if I eat nuts for a few days. Considering we have an epidemic of autism in the US where we use antibiotics like candy this conversation needs both sides of the story.

 

[haidut]

Address thyroid function. The overgrowths of bad bacteria can be kept in check by good digestion.

First, I would like to point out that this thread and other like it where the studies talked about gut sterilization, is about cancer. I'd say this is a bit different than what most people on the forum are struggling with, hence the more "aggressive" approach of such studies in regards to the microbiome. I have not yet seen a study on treating cancer with prebiotics. Maybe there will be one day, but for now the studies focus on limiting endotoxin as much as possible given the direct role of the bacteria producing it and the endotoxin itself in lethal conditions like cancer.

Anyways, by all means, thyroid function should be addressed first and hopefully it fixes the issue. But as many people on this forum would testify, that does not seem to help much in severe cases of SIBO or severe colon dysbiosis. Ultimately, the problem of endotoxemia comes down to too many bacteria in the colon (and sometimes small intestine), often forming thick biofilms that cannot really be removed by much else except antibiotics. Serotonin production depends entirely on that bacteria, and if the person already has issues with endotoxemia unless the count/biofilms are somehow reduced that problem will not go away.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/serotonin-production-gut-depends-on-bacteria.6409/

I hear your point about indiscriminate use of antibiotics and it likely does more harm than good when done by the whitecoats who often do it without any test to see if there is even bacterial infection present. But autism has been pretty reliably tied to serotonin excess, and lowering serotonin by sterilizing the gut has been shown to largely eliminate the symptoms.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/ssri-drugs-during-pregnancy-cause-child-autism-antiserotonin-drugs-cure-it.28865/
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/ssri-during-pregnancy-causes-cognitive-dysfunction-autism-in-offspring.11557/
Wiping out the gut microbiome could help with heart failure: Tracing the surprising connections between the gut, immune system and heart

That last link above is on heart failure but I included it just to show that sterilizing the gut can treat another condition considered insurable and lethal by modern medicine, similar to the OP topic in this thread. The caution, which that last link raises as well, is what bacteria ends up recolonizing the gut after it has been sterilized by antibiotic therapy. If the antibiotics are not strong enough and there is already latent C. difficile infection or another opportunistic pathogen present then the end results may not be very beneficial. But this is not because the approach to having less bacteria in the gut is wrong but rather because the protocol for sterilization was not done very well. There are very specific protocols for gut sterilization and most people do not follow them. The ones most commonly used involved a cocktail of 5-6 antibiotics including well-known ones like ampicillin, vancomycin, tetracycline, etc, or a 2-drug cocktail consisting of just 3-4 day therapy with neomycin+polymyxin B. The latter is commonly used before elective GI surgery precisely because it reliably sterilizes the gut, it takes just 3-4 days to complete, and limits risk of post-operative issues like peritonitis.
Bowel Preparation before Elective Surgery

Now, does that mean everybody should start popping antibiotics indiscriminately, as the very first option? Absolutely not. Try thyroid, try fixing diet, maybe even try limiting effects of endotoxin/serotonin first. If antibiotics are being considered, maybe a first good step would be to do a microbiome analysis through a fecal sample. This way the person would know what antibiotics to choose. But my point is that endotoxin is perhaps the cardinal chronic cause of most diseases and without keeping the microbiome in check that issue will not go away. As such, for those who have severe gut dysbiosis, established fibrotic and/or other chronic disease, or autism thyroid alone may not be enough. In such cases, judicial use of antibiotics may be the only thing capable of breaking the vicious cycle. That's what these threads are supposed to convey. After all, they do not talk about indigestion, they talk about cancer, hear failure, Alzheimer's, etc, how these conditions are driven by gut bacteria, and how antibiotics can be therapeutic.
Just my 2c.

 

[yerrag]

Interesting.

Anything to note digestion wise? Bloating? Stool appearance?

Definitely no bloating. In terms of stool appearance, I noticed my stools for a while weren't one large Cavendish banana, but were like pieces of malnourished tamarind. My digestion stayed the same. Continue to experience no gassing at all. Now that you ask, it's been a while and I hadn't noticed this, but it's not because of the antibiotics.

Were you having problems digestion-wise with some antibiotics.

 

[RisingSun]

Definitely no bloating. In terms of stool appearance, I noticed my stools for a while weren't one large Cavendish banana, but were like pieces of malnourished tamarind. My digestion stayed the same. Continue to experience no gassing at all. Now that you ask, it's been a while and I hadn't noticed this, but it's not because of the antibiotics.

Were you having problems digestion-wise with some antibiotics.

Thank you.

I feel I was less bloated and consistently had well-formed stools before my rounds of doxycycline.
I don’t remember how I felt during or right after the course. Maybe I would be better off being on a long term low dose to prevent the aftermath consequences, who knows

 

[yerrag]

Thank you.

I feel I was less bloated and consistently had well-formed stools before my rounds of doxycycline.
I don’t remember how I felt during or right after the course. Maybe I would be better off being on a long term low dose to prevent the aftermath consequences, who knows

I feel a need for doxycycline again. Or minocyline (haven't tried it yet). My issue has never been with the gut it seemed. With my protocol to lower blood pressure, it seemed to be going along fine, as I am getting much lower spO2 readings, indicating higher oxygenation. But the downside is my blood pressure has been on the upswing, and a CBC test this morning revealed my wbc is back to being high at 7.38, coupled with my neutrophils as well on the upswing at 71.30. It seems that I'm breaking some biofilms present in plaque, and the increased wbc and neutrophils may be a sign that a lot of bacteria is being let loose by the broken biofilms. So I think some antibiotics would help take the load off my innate immune system, and my wbc and neutrophils would not be needed as much.

I get the feeling that if one's guts are fine bacteria-wise, the antibiotic is going to find somewhere else in the body where bacteria lurks and deal with it, and right now I could need its help with these jailbroken bacteria.

 

[RisingSun]

I feel a need for doxycycline again. Or minocyline (haven't tried it yet). My issue has never been with the gut it seemed. With my protocol to lower blood pressure, it seemed to be going along fine, as I am getting much lower spO2 readings, indicating higher oxygenation. But the downside is my blood pressure has been on the upswing, and a CBC test this morning revealed my wbc is back to being high at 7.38, coupled with my neutrophils as well on the upswing at 71.30. It seems that I'm breaking some biofilms present in plaque, and the increased wbc and neutrophils may be a sign that a lot of bacteria is being let loose by the broken biofilms. So I think some antibiotics would help take the load off my innate immune system, and my wbc and neutrophils would not be needed as much.

I get the feeling that if one's guts are fine bacteria-wise, the antibiotic is going to find somewhere else in the body where bacteria lurks and deal with it, and right now I could need its help with these jailbroken bacteria.

Why is the biofilm being broken in the first place? Is that a consequence of the antibotics too or are you doing something else at the moment?

How is your liver on doxycycline?

After my third liver flush (Andreas Moritz protocole) I passed 2 parasites/worms.
I have no way to know if they were in my gut or in my liver, but you’re right, the gut is far from being the only place crippled with pathogens.

 

[yerrag]

Why is the biofilm being broken in the first place? Is that a consequence of the antibotics too or are you doing something else at the moment?

How is your liver on doxycycline?

After my third liver flush (Andreas Moritz protocole) I passed 2 parasites/worms.
I have no way to know if they were in my gut or in my liver, but you’re right, the gut is far from being the only place crippled with pathogens.

Sorry, I got off topic I'll just move my response to another thread.

 

[Amazoniac]

We think of gut bacteria creeping up the small intestine or stopping at the stomach, yet the critical sites for the majority of nutrient absorption are neglected, a small disturbance there is troubling. An overgrowth doesn't have to be from microbes taking over by advancing, it can be that the established ones are not being controlled and swept out properly, they are not necessarily migrating. But often the times the imbalance can be traced to the mummified mouth. It need not be a severe pertubation in the upper gut to affect every consequential step.

You can find various syndromes where differences in microbial composition at those sites were detected when compared to normal people. Makes no sense to neglect it.

- Dysbiosis of small intestinal microbiota in liver cirrhosis and its association with etiology

"As can be observed in this study, at the genus level, Veillonella, Prevotella, Neisseria, and Haemophilus, were the most discriminative taxa between cirrhosis and controls. All these taxa are commonly presented in the oral cavity11, which suggests oral microbiota has a great impact upon duodenal microbiota. The oral cavity is the entry point of bacteria into the body. The human oral microbiota not only play a role in disease of the oral cavity, but also interact with microbiomes from other parts of the human body12. Our earlier study has found that microbes of oral origin could be present in stool of cirrhosis patients13. Recently, a direct evaluation of the salivary microbiome in controls and patients with cirrhosis was performed by Bajaj et al.14. In salivary microbiome of cirrhotic patients with previous hepatic encephalopathy, relative abundance of autochthonous taxa (Lachnospiraceae and Ruminococcaceae) decreased whereas potentially pathogenic taxa (Prevotella and Fusobacteriaceae) increased. Partly in consistent with their results, our results also found the relative abundance of duodenal Prevotella and Fusobacterium in cirrhosis was significantly higher than in controls. It has been reported in a previous study that distinct bacterial populations in the oral microbiota are involved in production of high levels of H2S and CH3SH in the oral cavity. The H2S group showed higher proportions of the genera Neisseria, Porphyromonas and SR1, whereas the CH3SH group had higher proportions of the genera Prevotella, Veillonella, Atopobium, Megasphaera, and Selenomonas15. It is interesting that the duodenal bacterial groups enriched in cirrhosis and healthy controls are highly consistent with the oral microbiota in CH3SH group and H2S group, respectively. Blood levels of CH3SH have been suggested as important factors in the pathogenesis of hepatic encephalopathy16. The shift of microbiota toward CH3SH generated community might indicate a direct contribution of duodenal microbiota to hepatic encephalopathy in cirrhosis. Our results are in line with recently published data showing that gut dysbiosis links with systemic and neuro-inflammation. When compared with control mice, the small intestinal microbiota in cirrhotic mice showed relative increase in Enterobacteriaceae and Staphylococcaceae along with predominantly oral families such as Streptococcaceae17. Taking together, these results might indicate associations between small intestinal microbiota of oral origins and hepatic encephalopathy."​

It mayn't be a cause, but it's toxic, and the minimum that we can do is to starting regulating infections of this sort as drugs.