yerrag

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
10,883
Location
Manila
I’m pretty sure both bifido and lactobacillus species dont produce LPS and many of them dont produce histamine or d lactate. Some actually inhibit and block lps and many produce compounds like GABA. They also inhibit more pathogenic strains like gram negative e.coli, klebsiella, psuedomonas, citrobactor, campylobactor, salmonella etc. As was pointed out a small intestine overgrowth may not be ideal but having the populations in the colon may not be such as bad thing. Many people report healing themselves of digestive issues using these species. There are clinical studies using these on IBD patients with success. It seems a combination of these bacteria with antibiotics would be a potent combination overall for someone with IBD or gut issues, however taking them orally may be an issue due to small intestine overgrowth possibility so taking them as an enema may be more feasible.

I think there may be a difference between isolated soluble fibers like inulin and FOS and something like garlic or a banana. Attempting to avoid soluble fibers, which seems to be implied here, would create a very restrictive diet. Assuming no dysbiosis I’d think fiber from safe foods like fruits, yams, potatoes, roots would have a different effect than the isolated supplemental fibers we are being sold as “prebiotics”.

Some essential oils are just as potent if not more potent than antibiotics. Oregano, thyme, cinnamon, and lemongrass are some examples with extremely low minimum inhibitory concentrations in ranges from .3% To 5% (v/v).

If you cant be sterile you might as well choose the least worst option especially if you have a gut issue.

Nice post. I've wondered about EM1 beneficial bacteria which I use regularly on my fishpond as well as on my cats' drinking water. And I've used probiotics myself in the past, and only limited to times when I had to take antibiotics. Lately, I've been staying away from probiotics though. But I'm conflicted as I find it hard to reconcile the concept of having a sterile gut to the concept of having a healthy microbiome. Reconciling these views would probably have to start with disabusing us of the notion that all gut bacteria are bad. Knowing that there are bacteria that don't produce endotoxins is very helpful, for one.

For me a sterile gut is anathema to our biology. Perhaps a more suitable phrase is a relatively sterile gut. This gut would still have a wide diversity of bacterial species that as a whole is the microbiome of the gut. The diversity is a requisite starting point, as it allows the body to have an assortment of capability to counter threats as part of the body's immune system. After diversity comes balance, which comes from a good mix of bacteria. A good mix is where the beneficial nature outweighs the harmful nature of the microbiome. There is Jekyll and Hyde duality to the microbiome, where there is a constant tug-of-war between good and evil, if you will. We have to set the environment of our gut to be such that good predominates. Consider that between good and evil bacteria, there is a silent majority of bacteria that's sitting on the fence. The good bacteria has to be dominant, as this will bring the rest of the fence-sitting bacteria to its side. And when such is the case, there is a healthy gut.

But that's still not enough. Maybe the next thing is to not have too much bacteria in our gut. And this is what I mean by having a relatively sterile gut. And for me, it makes sense if we take antibiotics such as tetracyclines with regular low dosages. Since such antibiotics don't discriminate, it would simply pare down the size of the microbiome while maintaining the balance and diversity.

But I'm not sure if I'm making sense here. I'm just trying to reconcile what I see to be conflicts in what I'm reading about gut bacteria.
 

tankasnowgod

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
8,131
A couple, all antibiotics including penicillin and tetracycline are linked to the development of gut diseases.

Rosacea, Use of Tetracycline, and Risk of Incident Inflammatory Bowel Disease in Women
Potential association between the oral tetracycline class of antimicrobials used to treat acne and inflammatory bowel disease. - PubMed - NCBI
Antibiotic use and inflammatory bowel diseases in childhood

Antibiotics are an inferior way to manage your intestinal flora since they kill indiscriminately and are likely to cause dysbiosis. In contrast if you harness your endogenous anti-bacteria defences such as ensuring proper bile flow, having fasting/feeding cycles, eating natural fiber-containing foods, keeping your circadian rhythms, etc, you will have a healthier flora since for instance bile preferentially kills the more harmful bacteria and spares the beneficial ones.

None of those studies imply causality in any way.
 

Kartoffel

Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2017
Messages
1,199
I still think that getting the intestines moving as vigorously as possible should be the priority.

Volle Zustimmung. I think the reason that fiber intake is negatively associated with colon cancer in most studies is that most fibers contain significant amounts of insoluble fiber, and insoluble fibers increase fecal mass and speed up transit time in almost every study. From what I have seen the most potent drain cleaner is bamboo shoots.

A few days ago, I ate a large bowl of oatmeal (cooked as Peaty as possible) because I love it and figured a bowlful a few times a year can't be too harmful. Maybe 12 hours later, and continuing for two days, my bad tooth started throbbing. It had been in a good state, no sensitivity, for weeks.

These moments of clarity are not frequent for me. But in this case the oatmeal was clearly the one thing that had changed. I think I will throw the oatmeal away for good now,

Oatmeal contains a lot of soluble fiber and therefore seems to be very good at feeding bacteria. In some of the older studies, oatmeal was one of the most potent enhancers of tumor formation and cell proliferation.
 

tankasnowgod

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
8,131
Which is not what you asked for.

Where is the evidence, any evidence whatsoever, that taking antibiotics without a specific indication is beneficial to overall health?

You are correct on your first point. I should have been more specific, as it's pretty clear that sick people are more likely to take antibiotics in the first place.

As for your second point, well, there's literally evidence in the first post in the thread.
 
Joined
Nov 18, 2018
Messages
765
Does anybody have a good source for doxycycline? Any dietary/supplement suggestions that are especially important to adhere to while taking doxy?
 

Collden

Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
Messages
630
As for your second point, well, there's literally evidence in the first post in the thread.
No, this study was done in genetically engineered mice with a knock-out mutation that caused severe intestinal dysbiosis. Its not surprising that antibiotics would be beneficial in the context of a genetic mutation that completely messes up your microbiome, but it has no relevance for the average person.
 

tankasnowgod

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
8,131
No, this study was done in genetically engineered mice with a knock-out mutation that caused severe intestinal dysbiosis. Its not surprising that antibiotics would be beneficial in the context of a genetic mutation that completely messes up your microbiome, but it has no relevance for the average person.

Still far stronger evidence than anything taken from the Nurses Health Study.
 

Luk3

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2018
Messages
89
Isn’t the integrity of the intestinal wall the critical factor in exposure to endotoxin?
 

kyle

Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2016
Messages
399
@Collden

Wrt the acne study you linked

A lot of people report acne/skin issues being strongly linked to gut function. E.g., often restricting starches or other aggravating foods can cure their acne.

Often people with acne get on antibiotics after the antibacterial topicals dont work. This suggests that the acne itself can be an IBD symptom, perhaps an early sympton before an IBD diagnosis is made.
 

Peater

Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
2,637
Location
Here
Does anyone take oregano oil regularly? I had a bottle of Bob's Best I bought for fighting illness etc, and decided to start taking daily before it goes out of date.
 

TeaRex14

Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2018
Messages
629
I don't see this study posted:
A Plant Kavalactone Desmethoxyyangonin Prevents Inflammation and Fulminant Hepatitis in Mice

From the abstract: "...The results showed that LPS/D-GalN−induced hepatic damage is likely through perturbing amino acid metabolism, which leads to decreased pyruvate formation via catalysis of aminotransferases, and [desmethoxyyangonin] DMY treatment can prevent to a certain degree of these alterations in metabolic network in mouse caused by LPS/D-GalN. Mechanistic investigation demonstrated that DMY protects LPS or LPS/D-GalN−induced damages in cell or liver tissues mainly through de-regulating IKK/NFκB and Jak2/STAT3 signaling pathways. This report provides evidence-based knowledge to support the rationale for the use of A. pricei root extract in anti-inflammation and also its new function as hepatoprotetive agent against fulminant hepatitis."

I didn't hunt for Alpinia pricei Hayata used in this study, but went directly to kava root extract, which contains DMY, (in small doses) to protect liver against LPS.
Thanks, I didn't know about this.
 

Owen B

Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2016
Messages
310
When people say "antibiotics", what dosage are they talking about? Isn't that a key?

There was a post somewhere about RP taking low dose tetracycline a couple of times a week.

There's plenty of studies out there about low dose doxycycline. If you take it a a dose lower than 50 mgs a day you'll get an antibiotic effect, but no resistance. Plus, at that dose it's anti-inflammatory.
 

yerrag

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
10,883
Location
Manila
Does anybody have a good source for doxycycline? Any dietary/supplement suggestions that are especially important to adhere to while taking doxy?
If you're not squeamish about going to a vet to get doxycycline intended for pet dogs or cats, a brand called doxyvet may be of use. I got doxyvet 10, which means 10mg/ml in a 100 ml bottle. It cost me less than $10 in Manila. Sometimes, I feel they're better as the sweet syrup it's mixed in is likely made with sugar, and not the sugar substitutes which a lot of medicine made for humans are mixed with. Animals are less fussy, and they don't fall for the low-calorie bull****.
 

yerrag

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
10,883
Location
Manila
If you're not squeamish about going to a vet to get doxycycline intended for pet dogs or cats, a brand called doxyvet may be of use. I got doxyvet 10, which means 10mg/ml in a 100 ml bottle. It cost me less than $10 in Manila. Sometimes, I feel they're better as the sweet syrup it's mixed in is likely made with sugar, and not the sugar substitutes which a lot of medicine made for humans are mixed with. Animals are less fussy, and they don't fall for the low-calorie bull****.
What is the difference between antibiotics used for animals and those used for humans? Is there food-grade antibiotics (for animals) and pharma-grade antibiotics (for humans)?
 

Vinny

Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
1,438
Age
51
Location
Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined
Nov 18, 2018
Messages
765
If you're not squeamish about going to a vet to get doxycycline intended for pet dogs or cats, a brand called doxyvet may be of use. I got doxyvet 10, which means 10mg/ml in a 100 ml bottle. It cost me less than $10 in Manila. Sometimes, I feel they're better as the sweet syrup it's mixed in is likely made with sugar, and not the sugar substitutes which a lot of medicine made for humans are mixed with. Animals are less fussy, and they don't fall for the low-calorie bull****.
10 bucks damn that’s cheap! I’ll check it out as I’m in Miami
 

yerrag

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
10,883
Location
Manila

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom