Advocatus Diaboli: The Anti-peat Framework

[Zigzag]

I have yet be fully bought into the Peat way. Likely because I haven't felt amazing since.

Have you tried going back to the previous way of eating?

 

[revenant]

Don't forget that a higher metabolic rate will ultimately wear you down an deplete the number of ticks available in your internal biological clock!

The whole life extension community is basically founded around this idea, so it's not "obvious" that the idea is wrong. I wonder if someone like Jeanne Calment had a high or low metabolism.

I'm guessing the Okinawans (with their "eat to 80% fullness") are slightly hypothyroid too, yet they live pretty long.

 

[Kunstruct]

Have you tried going back to the previous way of eating?

That is a good exercise, one should go back to his previous ways of eating and see if things improve.

Now I doubt most people are really peat for real, take for example how most peatarians do not even drink milk, orange juice, etc, because they do not feel good on it.
So what is to eat peaty if you can only eat half peaty?
Maybe it means peat diet is something only certain people can do if we only are able to do 33% of it.

 

[sunraiser]

I thought it would be funny and interesting to develop a framework opposed to Ray peats ideas. This is purely an intellectual exercise. Of course, I will try to keep the framework as self consistent as I can (or as Gödel will allow me), and I will not include obviously wrong things, ie "Being hypothyroid is actually GREAT" or "Castrate yourself for a longer lifespan". Another requirement is that everything should be backed up by high quality evidence. So, lets start:

-Omega 3 are good for you. Krill oil is a super food
-Serotonin is the "happiness" hormone and contributes to the feeling of contentment
-Melatonin is necessary for restorative sleep
-Fibre is essential for a diverse microbiome. Eat various forms of fibres to gain maximum diversity
-Beta-oxidation is good. It also leads to fat loss. L-Carnitine supplementation is a must
-Intermittent fasting is a great tool to "detox" and loose weight
-Excess carbs impair metabolic health by interfering with insulin signaling
-Nitric Oxide is necessary for arterial health, and also for downstairs optimal function. L-Arginine supplementation is great
-Hormesis is essential for developing a resilient organism
-Estrogen is neuroprotective
-Sugar is addictive, and will lead to excess caloric consumption
-Glutathione is essential, oxidative stress is universally bad, and having plenty of antioxidants is a must
-Activating the sirtuins, with Resveratrol for example, leads to life extension
-Metformin is great for life extension and anti-cancer therapy
-Having a big methyl pool is critical. High doses of methylfolate, B12 and methyl donors are warranted.
-Cold thermogenesis will increase Brown Adipose Tissue, which is great for having a higher BMR

I hope to eventually, as time allows me, to back everything up with studies, and gain more knowledge in the process. I know there are many refutations of most things stated here in the forum, so no need to debunk them.

Additions to the framework or studies supportive thereof are very welcome :)

I can chime in with a few personal anti peat anecdotes (I respect the man obviously but I respect my own experiences and body more) linked to your points...

Fibre - I eat and enjoy fibrous foods like wholegrains every day. I eat kale or greens a few times a week. It's odd with kale, I can tell by mouth feel which bits i don't want to swallow so I guess I'm avoiding "bad fibre".

Sugar - I eat honey to craving and it's necessary to combine with things like oats for me, but forcing sugar down (eg as a way to hit a calorie target) makes me have worse glycogen storage and fat gain.

NO - i eat dark chocolate everyday because i crave it. It's the most satisfying texture of any food for me, though it supposedly increases nitric oxide considerably.

These aren't hard scientific rebuttals but more challenges to his theories in practice. I don't need to understand the exact why, but can be content with having a loose framework of physiological knowledge while accepting that I don't fully understand - it'll always be within an incomplete context through which my intuition will guide me.

 

[Goobz]

Obviously wrong things?

Environmental effects on longevity in the male rat: Exercise, mating, castration and restricted feeding - ScienceDirect
Castration & Life Expectancy: Eunuchs Live Longer Than Other Men, Study Shows | HuffPost
Effects of Castration on the Life Expectancy of Contemporary Men - LessWrong 2.0
Can castration really prolong a man's life?
Eunuchs May Hold Key to Longevity
The lifespan of Korean eunuchs - ScienceDirect
PROLONGATION OF THE LIFE SPAN OF KOKANEE SALMON (ONCORHYNCHUS NERKA KENNERLYI) BY CASTRATION BEFORE BEGINNING OF GONAD DEVELOPMENT

Lol you beat me to it on that one.

There are a few others there which I think are totally valid, or at least far more complicated than made out, and framed here as simply "wrong". High protein intake for example - if it's muscle meat sources high in methionine etc, then yes it will reduce health and life expectancy.

 

[Goobz]

I have yet be fully bought into the Peat way. Likely because I haven't felt amazing since.

In my opinion and experience Ray Peat is right about 70% of the time. That's an awful lot higher than most people. But he's still not infallible and his word certainly shouldn't be taken as gospel in my opinion. That's not how science works - you go with the evidence, not the theory or the word of one man. My advice - if its not working for you, listen to your body and continue to read widely in a search for answers.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Lol you beat me to it on that one.

There are a few others there which I think are totally valid, or at least far more complicated than made out, and framed here as simply "wrong". High protein intake for example - if it's muscle meat sources high in methionine etc, then yes it will reduce health and life expectancy.

Muscle meat has pretty much the same amount of methionine as milk. Cheese has way more methionine than muscle meat. That can't be used as an argument against muscle meat, or else, it's also an argument against dairy.

 

[schultz]

Did he say why a little of it can be a good thing? I imagine that it's more that a little bacteria is good because it keeps the immune system on a healthy level of constant alertness. So one could be impervious to allergens. But I don't know about endotoxins except that endotoxins are associated with dead bacteria.

I don't remember exactly how he said it or in which podcast unfortunately. Sometimes I just remember concepts and ideas instead of exact dialogue as it's easier for me. I may try and look for it but there are a ton of podcasts now so it's like finding a needle in a haystack, unless it's in one of the ones with endotoxin in the title lol.

 

[yerrag]

I don't remember exactly how he said it or in which podcast unfortunately. Sometimes I just remember concepts and ideas instead of exact dialogue as it's easier for me. I may try and look for it but there are a ton of podcasts now so it's like finding a needle in a haystack, unless it's in one of the ones with endotoxin in the title lol.

Yeah, I wish Steve had kept his website L-I_G_H-T.com going. It helped me search through the many interviews Peat's had. Now we have to remember very well what was said. I find myself having to run through each new interview a few times just to internalize it, but I only get to do that when I drive and listen to podcasts. At other times, it's hard for me to simply sit and listen to podcasts. It would be nice if I were in a gym working out.

 

[schultz]

Yeah, I wish Steve had kept his website L-I_G_H-T.com going. It helped me search through the many interviews Peat's had. Now we have to remember very well what was said. I find myself having to run through each new interview a few times just to internalize it, but I only get to do that when I drive and listen to podcasts. At other times, it's hard for me to simply sit and listen to podcasts. It would be nice if I were in a gym working out.

Yes that site was amazing!

Working out to Ray Peat: It wouldn't exactly pump me up lol. I listen while I am at work, but I do have to listen a few times as I tend to miss things because I am working. I've listened to all of the podcasts multiple times. I'm not a weirdo, I just run out of things to listen to at work and am always looking for new things to listen to. Sometimes I'm like "maybe I'll go through all the Ray podcasts again..." I used to do audiobooks but I found I could only follow certain types of books or certain styles of writing. Michael Crichton was easy to listen to, so I listened to all his books. Some more complicated books I started I had to stop because I realized I didn't know what the heck was going on. The Sherlock Holmes stories were actually easy to listen to. Lots of them are short stories.

 

[yerrag]

Yes that site was amazing!

Working out to Ray Peat: It wouldn't exactly pump me up lol. I listen while I am at work, but I do have to listen a few times as I tend to miss things because I am working. I've listened to all of the podcasts multiple times. I'm not a weirdo, I just run out of things to listen to at work and am always looking for new things to listen to. Sometimes I'm like "maybe I'll go through all the Ray podcasts again..." I used to do audiobooks but I found I could only follow certain types of books or certain styles of writing. Michael Crichton was easy to listen to, so I listened to all his books. Some more complicated books I started I had to stop because I realized I didn't know what the heck was going on. The Sherlock Holmes stories were actually easy to listen to. Lots of them are short stories.

I used to listen to Michael Donnelly (not sure if it's Michael)'s novels on Detective Harry Bosch. Having lived in LA, it made it more real. Back then, I had not heard of Ray Peat. Otherwise, he'd have competition.

 

[schultz]

I used to listen to Michael Donnelly (not sure if it's Michael)'s novels on Detective Harry Bosch. Having lived in LA, it made it more real. Back then, I had not heard of Ray Peat. Otherwise, he'd have competition.

Oh, is that what the TV series Bosch is based off of? My brother said he liked the series. I'll check out the books. Thanks for the suggestion!

Sorry to the OP for the off topic chit chat. When I check my inbox I do not always recognize which thread I am in and just reply to the individual.

 

[sladerunner69]

The whole life extension community is basically founded around this idea, so it's not "obvious" that the idea is wrong. I wonder if someone like Jeanne Calment had a high or low metabolism.

I'm guessing the Okinawans (with their "eat to 80% fullness") are slightly hypothyroid too, yet they live pretty long.

How realistic is it that Okinawans actually follow this principle? Also their traditional diet is relatively low in PUFA and high in carbohydrate.

 

[redsun]

Lol you beat me to it on that one.

There are a few others there which I think are totally valid, or at least far more complicated than made out, and framed here as simply "wrong". High protein intake for example - if it's muscle meat sources high in methionine etc, then yes it will reduce health and life expectancy.

Not only do dairy and meat in general have about the same amount of methionine, but muscle meat (if its pork or beef) has much more histidine in relation to methionine. Meaning in theory more methionine should be used up (as SAM-e) to metabolize histamine. Most dairy except for certain cheeses has nearly equal histidine and methionine ratios as opposed to red meats which are significantly more skewed in favor of histidine.

 

[yerrag]

Oh, is that what the TV series Bosch is based off of? My brother said he liked the series. I'll checbbk out the books. Thanks for the suggestion!

Sorry to the OP for the off topic chit chat. When I check my inbox I do not always recognize which thread I am in and just reply to the individual.

Yes, but I didn't like the TV series. It doesn't bring out the character of Harry Bosch that well, and there's a lot of the internal thought process and back story of Harry Bosch that the screen can't bring out, and for a detective series revolving on his character the screen just can't measure up.

 

[Steven Bussinger]

Yeah, I wish Steve had kept his website L-I_G_H-T.com going. It helped me search through the many interviews Peat's had. Now we have to remember very well what was said. I find myself having to run through each new interview a few times just to internalize it, but I only get to do that when I drive and listen to podcasts. At other times, it's hard for me to simply sit and listen to podcasts. It would be nice if I were in a gym working out.

That's gone now? He could've handed it over to Dan Wich or someone else. How much did running that cost? I remember funding that on IndieGoGo and never received any perks. Just checked, it was $506.

 

[yerrag]

That's gone now? He could've handed it over to Dan Wich or someone else. How much did running that cost? I remember funding that on IndieGoGo and never received any perks. Just checked, it was $506.

I didn't know it was in IndieGogo, and that you had helped find it. It was very helpful, and I wish he'd pass it on to someone to continue running it, and Dan Wich would be an excellent choice.

The cost, other than maintaining the site, would be having transcribers for the interviews of Ray that comes out regularly. If I'm not mistaken, he had that farmed out to India.

 

[Goobz]

Muscle meat has pretty much the same amount of methionine as milk. Cheese has way more methionine than muscle meat. That can't be used as an argument against muscle meat, or else, it's also an argument against dairy.

Not only do dairy and meat in general have about the same amount of methionine, but muscle meat (if its pork or beef) has much more histidine in relation to methionine. Meaning in theory more methionine should be used up (as SAM-e) to metabolize histamine. Most dairy except for certain cheeses has nearly equal histidine and methionine ratios as opposed to red meats which are significantly more skewed in favor of histidine.

In relation to both posts - yes it is also an argument against dairy. Having drunk lots of milk growing up, I like the taste of the stuff, and I love cheese, but I'm not one who believes dairy is a health food.

For example, there was a study of dietary factors and Parkinsons disease progression I read by Dr Laurie Mischley. She's a natural doctor whatever that is, but who has no vested interests in selling PD drugs or otherwise and whos work has found many useful things for PD sufferers such as lithium, DHEA, boron etc. Her study showed dairy intake increased the progression of Parkinsons more than meat intake. I think beef was the next worse thing after dairy. The only thing worse than both of them was iron supplementation, which makes pretty straightforward sense to me. Though in multiple studies now, dairy is linked with PD, so it could be due to many factors apart from the amino acid - a gut microbiome thing perhaps.

The only real food source that comes to mind as an exception to this argument is gelatin and collagen. I think the majority of the time high protein intake probably isn't a good thing unless you're growing. But that's just my take on it.

Very interesting about the histidine / SAMe, I don't know much about that.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

In relation to both posts - yes it is also an argument against dairy. Having drunk lots of milk growing up, I like the taste of the stuff, and I love cheese, but I'm not one who believes dairy is a health food.

For example, there was a study of dietary factors and Parkinsons disease progression I read by Dr Laurie Mischley. She's a natural doctor whatever that is, but who has no vested interests in selling PD drugs or otherwise and whos work has found many useful things for PD sufferers such as lithium, DHEA, boron etc. Her study showed dairy intake increased the progression of Parkinsons more than meat intake. I think beef was the next worse thing after dairy. The only thing worse than both of them was iron supplementation, which makes pretty straightforward sense to me. Though in multiple studies now, dairy is linked with PD, so it could be due to many factors apart from the amino acid - a gut microbiome thing perhaps.

The only real food source that comes to mind as an exception to this argument is gelatin and collagen. I think the majority of the time high protein intake probably isn't a good thing unless you're growing. But that's just my take on it.

Very interesting about the histidine / SAMe, I don't know much about that.

I see. I'll look into that doctor you mentioned. Thanks.

 

[Spokey]

Need to add: "Life is endless Darwinian conflict, only the most aggressive survive."