Advice For Getting Off Thyroid Hormone

[charlie]

I am considering coming off thyroid medication, cold turkey. I tried to lower it gradually but my digestion grinds to a halt. Wondering if I just stop they thyroid, and wait it out if my digestion will fire back up. Any thoughts?

Yes, I realize this is potentially dangerous. But my teeth are suffering terribly right now. Literally crumbling. I think its from the raised estrogen, cortisol, and PTH. I am concerned that my bones are doing the same. Also the dermatitis raises its ugly head and gets harder to fight back.

Should I be ready to down tons of coffee to help get me through? B1? LSD? haha kidding about the LSD.

 

[charlie]

"In 1951, Greer reported the pattern of recovery of thyroid function after stopping suppressive treatment with thyroid hormone in euthyroid [normal] subjects based on sequential measurements of their thyroidal uptake of radioiodine. He observed that after withdrawal of exogenous thyroid therapy, thyroid function, in terms of radioiodine uptake, returned to normal in most subjects within two weeks. He further observed that thyroid function returned as rapidly in those subjects whose glands had been depressed by several years of thyroid medication as it did in those whose gland had been depressed for only a few days" (8)

These results have been subsequently verified in several studies (8,9) and a large number of trials where T3 was used to treat obesity. So, contrary to what has been stated in the bodybuilding literature, there is no evidence that long-term thyroid supplementation will somehow damage your thyroid gland.

http://peatarian.com/3249/how-long-unti ... 3888#a3888

 

[gretchen]

You could try coconut oil. It brings my temps up.

Ikwym, though. If it wasn't for the weight thing.... Nothing else has worked as well.

 

[ilovethesea]

I am considering coming off thyroid medication, cold turkey. I tried to lower it gradually but my digestion grinds to a halt. Wondering if I just stop they thyroid, and wait it out if my digestion will fire back up. Any thoughts?

Yes, I realize this is potentially dangerous. But my teeth are suffering terribly right now. Literally crumbling. I think its from the raised estrogen, cortisol, and PTH. I am concerned that my bones are doing the same. Also the dermatitis raises its ugly head and gets harder to fight back.

Should I be ready to down tons of coffee to help get me through? B1? LSD? haha kidding about the LSD.

How would taking thyroid raise estrogen, cortisol and PTH and harm your teeth/bones? Wouldn't the dermatitis flares be a low thyroid issue?

 

[charlie]

You could try coconut oil. It brings my temps up.

Ikwym, though. If it wasn't for the weight thing.... Nothing else has worked as well.

I was just reading more about coconut oil, thank you. Definitely going to keep that flowing.

How would taking thyroid raise estrogen, cortisol and PTH and harm your teeth/bones? Wouldn't the dermatitis flares be a low thyroid issue?

Because thats how it happens with some people. There are studies where thyroid hormone caused osteoporosis. My dermatitis along with other high estrogen symptoms get worse the higher my metabolism and thyroid supplement goes. I am not able to find that happy medium anymore, its either too low and my digestion is horrible, or its too high I deal with estrogen symptoms.

 

[Katty]

Me too! Think I had a thyroid storm last weekend. Dr did more blood tests this week and told me to hold off before taking the meds- waiting for the blood test results. So I've been off T4 and T3 for a week. Though obviously the T4 is still in my system since I've only stopped it for a week. I was still storming the first few days, so didn't feel different. Yesterday had a random crying spell in the middle of the day (low blood sugar possibly related to going off the meds). Tonight my digestion is way slow and painful. And my pulse is about 78, which is a record low for me. Even before starting thyroid meds my pulse was never this low. I'm pretty much always around 90. And my temp is 98.5, which is also low for me for 8:30pm during the 2nd half of my cycle.

Perhaps this is a good sign, that even though temp and pulse are lower for me, perhaps my stress hormones aren't running anymore. My cortisol about 2 weeks ago was high above range (blood test). I'm pretty sure the high cortisol is from the meds... so like you, my estrogen symptoms get worse. I'm sort of wishing I had never started thyroid meds at all a couple years ago. Ah well, live and learn. I think my body just does not dig the synthroid so it will be interesting.

Sorry, this ended up like my own testimonial. But I'll keep you updated with what it's like to go off the meds cold turkey. If the symptoms get really bad, I might take a small dose of something.

 

[charlie]

I'm sort of wishing I had never started thyroid meds at all a couple years ago.

Me too Katty. I feel trapped.

Ok I do remember your thread about the high cortisol and I even remember saying to myself thats me.

How long were you on thyroid meds before stopping? And how much were you on?

Yes please keep me updated. I do feel relief that someone else is going through it too.

 

[aguilaroja]

I am considering coming off thyroid medication, cold turkey....

Charlie,

I don't know all the parameters here-what the original indication was for supplementing thyroid, how well it has worked, and what form you are currently using.

In terms of the general question-stopping supplementary thyroid-I will mention a few things, based on the experience of my circle:

(a) I know more cases of people stopping when they were doing well, compared to stopping due to problems with thyroid, once adjusted. IMNHE, some people think bio-identical thyroid support is "unnatural" and taper down once they feel better rather than entirely well. With pain, I'll mention that less Peat-y reasoning in some of the same people is that exhaustive long-distance running, tofu, and melatonin are "natural" while thyroid is not.

(a1) But certainly there are situations where supplementing thyroid is not helpful, or not primary. Does "digestion grinding to a halt" refer to heartburn/"dyspepsia", food intolerance, bloating/gas, problems with elimination, other things, or a combination?

(b) It is by far easier to taper down in the spring/summer than in the winter. The sunlight, ambient infrared and temperature seem to count for a lot.

(c) Generally for stopping supplementary things, when there is no toxicity, tapering down, even steeply, seems preferred to cold turkey stopping. "YMMV"

(d) The main caution IMNHE is "reverting" to the low thyroid state when things were difficult before.

For the specific situation, the factors contributing to difficult tooth mineralization are not known to me. My suggestion is to further investigate independent of decision on thyroid support.

Though I only review the topical literature now and then, I think there's been some unclear thinking about thyroid supplements and mineralization, and rarely has mineralization been assessed with combined T4/T3 supplementing, let alone rational combination supplementing. Bone mineralization goes most well with a well supported metabolism.

As you have surely moderated, there are numerous proxies for boosting metabolism and thyroid function without supplementing thyroid, but they are best adjusted based on individual context. If in the northern hemisphere in late autumn and winter, incandescent and red light would be pretty high on the list. However, I don't know how light and heat relate to the reported dermatitis issue...

In the short term, if not already doing so, I would suggest separate T4 and T3 preparations if tapering down, to more easily adjust the ratio.

--
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21757236

J Affect Disord. 2012 Jan;136(1-2):e89-94. doi: 10.1016/j.jad.2011.06.011. Epub 2011 Jul 14.
Long-term treatment with supraphysiological doses of thyroid hormone in affective disorders - effects on bone mineral density.
Ricken R1, Bermpohl F, Schlattmann P, Bschor T, Adli M, Mönter N, Bauer M.

"BACKGROUND: To investigate the long-term effects of supraphysiological, TSH suppressive doses of levothyroxine (TSDL) on bone mineral density (BMD) in patients with affective disorders during an average treatment duration of 69 months.
....CONCLUSION: This study did not demonstrate evidence that long-term treatment of affectively ill patients with TSDL accelerates loss of BMD compared to an age- and gender-matched reference population."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15555712
J Affect Disord. 2004 Dec;83(2-3):183-90.
Bone mineral density during maintenance treatment with supraphysiological doses of levothyroxine in affective disorders: a longitudinal study.
Bauer M1, Fairbanks L, Berghöfer A, Hierholzer J, Bschor T, Baethge C, Rasgon N, Sasse J, Whybrow PC.

"CONCLUSIONS: This study did not demonstrate evidence that long-term treatment of affectively ill patients with supraphysiological doses of L-T4 significantly accelerates loss of bone mineral density compared to the age-matched reference population. However, the decline of BMD in one individual patient underscores that caution is indicated and that regular assessment of BMD during longer-term supraphysiological thyroid hormone treatment is needed."

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/abem/v58n5/000 ... 5-0452.pdf
The multiple effects of thyroid disorders on bone and mineral metabolism
Ludmilla F. Cardoso1, Léa M. Z. Maciel1, Francisco J. A. de Paula1
"The hypercalcemia of thyrotoxicosis may result from an abnormal calcium efflux from the skeleton, kidneys and gastrointestinal tract to the extracellular fluid. The trend to hypercalcemia in thyrotoxicosis has been documented and its incidence varies from 8 to 22%. It is usually mild, but occasionally it is severe enough to be symptomatic and rarely is associated with signs and symptoms of acute hypercalcemia. The mean serum calcium concentrations of hyperthyroid patients are higher than those of control subjects (53-55)."

 

[arinryan]

I have been forgetting to take thyroid this fall, which isn't the same as going off it deliberately, but...I have not needed it as much. I remember to take a .25 grain bit in the morning, but then I forget to take it again during the day. However, I haven't really needed it... It was helping with sleep, and hormone issues, for me, but it seems I am getting both resolved using other methods, that seem to be working surprisingly well.

I am not needing to take anything to sleep at night anymore, not even gelatin... I just do something other than look at faces on a screen in the evening! Watch TV only when the sun is up. I am amazed how much this has helped me. Its so simple! I also try to spend a lot of time outside during the day, especially the morning.
I started trying this after reading Paul Jaminet's circadian rhythm ideas: http://perfecthealthdiet.com/category/circadian-rhythm-therapy/

(The other new thing for me is 10 mg B6, which is helping me more than progest-e ever has. I am pretty surprised.)

 

[Katty]

I'm sort of wishing I had never started thyroid meds at all a couple years ago.

Me too Katty. I feel trapped.

Ok I do remember your thread about the high cortisol and I even remember saying to myself thats me.

How long were you on thyroid meds before stopping? And how much were you on?

Yes please keep me updated. I do feel relief that someone else is going through it too.

I started thyroid meds around the middle of 2012. Started with Armour then switched to Nature-throid- around 1.25 or 1.5 grains (added T3 a while but Dr took it away). Then this last spring I switched from Nature-throid to synthetic T4 and T3 combo. I tried closer to 4:1 ratio when I first started the synthetics, but after about 8 weeks wasn't feeling great. So I did what my Dr wanted which is 75mcg of T4 and 10mcg of T3- been on that dose for the last 8-9 weeks. Cortisol symptoms just kept getting worse. Was warm all the time. Thought maybe I was doing ok though because temps and pulse were always really high. The synthetics make me smell funny too (though maybe that's just the stress hormones). And I was starving all the time. In any event, can't figure out how to get my cortisol down and I think the thyroid meds are responsible because my morning cortisol has historically been low until now.

Last night, shortly after posting, my stomach pains (in liver/gall area and then also actual stomach) were pretty bad so I took 1.5ish mcg of T3. Seemed to help a bit and I slept ok. This morning after breakfast the discomfort and nausea are back- though not quite as bad. Pulse right now is 85, which is, again, record low for me at 11:15am.
I'll actually probably start taking about half my dose of T4, which is 37mcg, and then maybe stick with the 10mcg of T3- see how I do with that because now I am concerned about stoping cold turkey. But I'm waiting to hear back from my Dr to see what he says on dosing. The thyroid storm I had over the weekend was kind of scary. Resting pulse at 120 that won't go down freaked me out.

Not sure how helpful this is. Tapering off is probably a better bet than just stopping cold turkey. I probably would have tried to taper instead, except the crazy pulse rate scared me.

Good luck with whatever you decide. Maybe slowly tapering down is a good idea?

 

[charlie]

(a1) But certainly there are situations where supplementing thyroid is not helpful, or not primary. Does "digestion grinding to a halt" refer to heartburn/"dyspepsia", food intolerance, bloating/gas, problems with elimination, other things, or a combination?

Major burping and heartburn are the grinding to a halt symptoms. I am sure some bloating too.

(b) It is by far easier to taper down in the spring/summer than in the winter. The sunlight, ambient infrared and temperature seem to count for a lot.

Yes I had that thought, I know its probably not the best time to try. However, I am not sure my teeth will last till next summer so I feel I have no choice. I dont have the financial means to have work done on my teeth so I gotta try this and see if it works.

(c) Generally for stopping supplementary things, when there is no toxicity, tapering down, even steeply, seems preferred to cold turkey stopping. "YMMV"

I will keep that in mind. maybe i will wait for symptoms too bad to deal with and then add a little thyroid. I dunno.

(d) The main caution IMNHE is "reverting" to the low thyroid state when things were difficult before.

Well, I rather go back to being exhausted all the time instead of losing my teeth, and my face on fire from the dermatitis. However, I am hoping that enough of the underlying problems have been solved that required the thyroid supplementation and I wont be exhausted.

For the specific situation, the factors contributing to difficult tooth mineralization are not known to me. My suggestion is to further investigate independent of decision on thyroid support.

I have tried everything, the more things I try the worse it gets.

In the short term, if not already doing so, I would suggest separate T4 and T3 preparations if tapering down, to more easily adjust the ratio.

Katty, do you think the pain you are having is possibly from constipation? One of the things I am making sure to keep going in the cascara sagrada.

Oh and I have the starving all the time too. I have ate so much in the last couple months to see if that would bring down the cortisol but to no avail.

 

[Katty]

Katty, do you think the pain you are having is possibly from constipation? One of the things I am making sure to keep going in the cascara sagrada.

Oh and I have the starving all the time too. I have ate so much in the last couple months to see if that would bring down the cortisol but to no avail.

It could be a constipation kind of situation. Possibly gastroparesis (slow stomach emptying). I'm not all out constipated because I still go every day, but some meals I guess take longer and cause more issues.
I'm afraid to keep eating because I can't stop gaining weight. It was ok at first, but for the last 2 years I just keep going up and up in weight... thanks a lot, cortisol

 

[charlie]

Maybe the weight will start coming off once the cortisol lowers.

How is your sleep?

 

[Katty]

Maybe the weight will start coming off once the cortisol lowers.

How is your sleep?

I hope so. But I'm not really sure how to lower the cortisol. Nothing I've been doing is working. Hopefully going off or lowering the thyroid meds will help, but who knows?

My sleep is good. Occasionally I have trouble falling asleep, but really not too bad. And occasionally I wake up around 5am (probably when cortisol is kicking in for the morning), but sometimes it's just because that's when my husband starts stirring as well. And I sleep 8-9 hours generally, sometimes more.

How is your sleep?

 

[charlie]

I hope cortisol will drop after the thyroid supp cleans out.

Lasts nights sleep was pretty good, i dropped my dose yesterday and its already showing. I did not wake up one time last night, thats one of my clues of estrogen is too high. I always have problems going to sleep which i contributed to cortisol. I cant remember if I had problems going to sleep before starting thyroid.

I am also much friendlier today. lol When the estrogen is pumping I am grumpy as heck and ready to snap at everything. It sucks.

 

[BingDing]

Charlie, I'm not familiar with the unique problem you describe about thyroid and teeth. My first thought is to megadose D3. This is pretty strong and clean, I found it at a local store.

40,000 IU/day for two weeks is perfectly safe, that would be 20 drops of that product. I have posted about this in another thread, I can dig it up if you need me to.

FWIW, I have a hard time connecting your health problems with thyroid. There are lots of essential nutrients other than thyroid, they all have to be there for metabolism to work well.

Best, BD

 

[thebigpeatowski]

I was able to come off Armour thyroid a couple years back, I stayed off all meds for a year and this was after being on thyroid medication for close to 15 years, so it is very doable. I tapered down by cutting pills in half and then quarters and eventually quit with no issues whatsoever. I used a lot of coconut oil and iodine (didn't know any better at the time). Like I stated earlier, things went well until the winter of 2012 when I crashed for the first time. I think eating massive amounts of PUFA and low vit. D caused it, but I could be wrong. I'm gonna try to go off meds again, but NOT during the fall/winter.

Also, I was under the impression that taking a T4 only thyroid med such as Synthroid was the contributing factor in bone loss. Certainly chronically elevated cortisol will cause calcium depletion in bones. How come eating lots of sugar doesn't bring down those cortisol levels?

What about boosting vit. K?

Do you have other symptoms of being hyperthyroid Charlie? Like high temps and pulse?

 

[Blossom]

I was wondering if you've had your prolactin checked? My teeth were practically translucent when my prolactin was at it's highest level. Just thought I'd mention that as another possibility.

 

[ilovethesea]

I was able to come off Armour thyroid a couple years back, I stayed off all meds for a year and this was after being on thyroid medication for close to 15 years, so it is very doable. I tapered down by cutting pills in half and then quarters and eventually quit with no issues whatsoever. I used a lot of coconut oil and iodine (didn't know any better at the time). Like I stated earlier, things went well until the winter of 2012 when I crashed for the first time. I think eating massive amounts of PUFA and low vit. D caused it, but I could be wrong. I'm gonna try to go off meds again, but NOT during the fall/winter.

Also, I was under the impression that taking a T4 only thyroid med such as Synthroid was the contributing factor in bone loss. Certainly chronically elevated cortisol will cause calcium depletion in bones. How come eating lots of sugar doesn't bring down those cortisol levels?

What about boosting vit. K?

Do you have other symptoms of being hyperthyroid Charlie? Like high temps and pulse?

Good post, I thought the same re: bone loss. Pretty sure there is a Ray Peat quote floating around somewhere about that, I had to look it up to show it to my doctor once.

I just can't see that cortisol and the other symptoms would get better by going off thyroid (in winter of all times!). But it does seem like more than a few people on the forums are having trouble with high cortisol symptoms.

Maybe the problem is metabolism is getting boosted without the accompanying nutrient requirements being fulfilled?

Have you tried high dose pregnenolone? Are you on no starch high sugar diet? Maybe a round of antibiotics would help also.

 

[ilovethesea]

Here is the quote.

"A few incompetent medical "studies" have made people fear that "taking thyroid can cause osteoporosis." Recognizing that hypothyroid women are likely to have small bones and excessive cortisol production, the inadequate treatment of hypothyroidism with thyroxin (the thyroid-suppressive precursor material), is likely to be associated with relative osteoporosis, simply because it doesn't correct hypothyroidism. Similar misinterpretations have led people to see an association between "thyroid use" (generally thyroxin) and breast cancer--hypothyroid women are likely to have cancer, osteoporosis, obesity, etc., and are also likely to have been inadequately treated for hypothyroidism. T3, the active form of thyroid hormone, does contribute to bone formation. (For example, M. Alini, et al.)" - Ray Peat

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/osteoporosis.shtml