Adrenaline and T3

[Waremu]

I just started some cynomel yesterday. My doses have been very small---3.1mcg per dose with food. I first took some with breakfast and noticed that I felt great. My pulse came up a bit, but wasn't still that high (only around 70--my pulse has been in the mid 60's on average). 4 hours later, by lunch, I took another dosage with food and I started feeling lethargic and anxious. It had later subsided. By dinner, my third dose, I started feeling better again. By the time I went to bed I was feeling very relaxed, calm, and sleepy. However, by 6AM I wake up with a pounding heart beat and high body temperate. Problem is, my pulse still wasn't that high, like you'd normally expect eith an adrenaline rush. It was just pounding hard, though still faster than usual. I was wondering if this is adrenaline sensitivy and maybe I should cut back to 1.5mch per meal for now. I'm getting plenty of protein, calcium, sugar, salt, magnesium, selenium, copper, b vitamins, etc. Any input would be greatly appreciated, as I am trying to figure out how to go about this. My pulse and body temperature has been low on average and after 1.5 years of pleating, I decided to give thyroid a try.

Thanks.

 

[paper_clips43]

Have you considered taking cynoplus?

 

[aguilaroja]

It is easier to adjust supplementing thyroid with the perspective of a few weeks, rather than a few hours or a few days. Certainly, it's fine to use a lower amount and go more slowly.

It may be clearer to take the T3 (cynomel/cytomel) before a between meals to judge its effect (especially for early stages). Taking T3 with meals may make the rate of absorption slower or more variable. (OTOH, in some cases T3 with food makes delivery steadier.)

It's just a guess: the 6 AM effect sounds like the T3 wearing off, leaving "unopposed" adrenalin at the end of the night cycle. Even though as you report there is not a classic adrenalin surge.

Even restorative effects of T3 can have early actions that are uneven. For instance, when metabolism is swiftly improving, glucose (sugar) can be consumed quickly, giving brief lethargy. The heart may be more efficiently (feeling rapid rate rate or pounding), or the brain may come to quick alertness (vigilant or hyper). HOWEVER, similar symptoms can arise for other, worrisome reasons, including medical problems or overshooting the dose. Experience and sometimes guidance sorts through this over time.

Over the intermediate term, some people do better with a combination of the more slowly utilized T4 in combination with the T3. T3 is much shorter acting, so it's easier to make adjustments in amount.

If you find T3 especially stimulating, emphasize daytime use in the beginning. While good thyroid function helps throughout the day, responses to T3 are individual, especially when beginning support. My experience is before/between meal use is easier for calibrating, unless the response to T3 without food is brisk.

 

[Waremu]

Have you considered taking cynoplus?

Yep. I do plan on using cynoplus also. I bought both cynoplus and cynomel, but I figured if start a few mcg of cynomel first to see how I react.

 

[Waremu]

It is easier to adjust supplementing thyroid with the perspective of a few weeks, rather than a few hours or a few days. Certainly, it's fine to use a lower amount and go more slowly.

It may be clearer to take the T3 (cynomel/cytomel) before a between meals to judge its effect (especially for early stages). Taking T3 with meals may make the rate of absorption slower or more variable. (OTOH, in some cases T3 with food makes delivery steadier.)

It's just a guess: the 6 AM effect sounds like the T3 wearing off, leaving "unopposed" adrenalin at the end of the night cycle. Even though as you report there is not a classic adrenalin surge.

Even restorative effects of T3 can have early actions that are uneven. For instance, when metabolism is swiftly improving, glucose (sugar) can be consumed quickly, giving brief lethargy. The heart may be more efficiently (feeling rapid rate rate or pounding), or the brain may come to quick alertness (vigilant or hyper). HOWEVER, similar symptoms can arise for other, worrisome reasons, including medical problems or overshooting the dose. Experience and sometimes guidance sorts through this over time.

Over the intermediate term, some people do better with a combination of the more slowly utilized T4 in combination with the T3. T3 is much shorter acting, so it's easier to make adjustments in amount.

If you find T3 especially stimulating, emphasize daytime use in the beginning. While good thyroid function helps throughout the day, responses to T3 are individual, especially when beginning support. My experience is before/between meal use is easier for calibrating, unless the response to T3 without food is brisk.

Thanks for the input. That makes sense. It does seem like most people do better on both T4 and T3. I started cynomel first to see how I reacted to it. I've noticed a lot of people who were very sensitive to adrenaline start out with one or two mcg of T3 per dose and slowly work their way up. I remember Ray Peat saying that it's not too uncommon to have someone who is very sensitive to adrenaline to take one or two mcg every hour or two I believe. I lowered my dose to 1.5mcg for my breakfast and lunch dose just incase it is an adrenaline sensitivity issue. It's interesting how you mention daytime use of T3 in the beginning because one thing I have noticed is that when I take T3 with breakfast I feel pretty decent. But both times I took it with lunch, I felt lethargic. I just took a smaller dose with a late lunch and still feel a bit off, but not as bad as last time. I also read how it can take a few weeks for someone who is sensitive to adrenaline to adjust to thyroid. So my idea was maybe it was smart to just use T3 the first few weeks until I become less sensitive to it and then switch to cynoplus, since I would think it's much easier to knock back on T3 dosage than cynoplus as far as side effects go, but maybe I'm wrong. Do you think maybe 1-2 mcg on an empty stomach 30 min before each meal, every few hours, would be better? I was thinking about taking another dose of T3 when I woke up with the adrenaline rush at 6AM this moing, but was too afraid too. Instead, I took honey and salt, which helped lower my adrenaline reaction. Then later I had more with my breakfast and some B vitamins and a smaller dosage of thyroid. Do you think its good to take more T3 in that situation? I was thinking about what you said about the early effects of T3 too. I definitely expect to go through some "adjustments." I know that when it comes to thyroid, it's largely keep plugging away until you find the right dosage and ratio that is right for you. I just hope I do it with enough caution.

 

[aguilaroja]

..Thanks for the input. That makes sense. It does seem like most people do better on both T4 and T3. I started cynomel first to see how I reacted to it. I've noticed a lot of people who were very sensitive to adrenaline start out with one or two mcg of T3 per dose and slowly work their way up. I remember Ray Peat saying that it's not too uncommon to have someone who is very sensitive to adrenaline to take one or two mcg every hour or two I believe. I lowered my dose to 1.5mcg for my breakfast and lunch dose just incase it is an adrenaline sensitivity issue. It's interesting how you mention daytime use of T3 in the beginning because one thing I have noticed is that when I take T3 with breakfast I feel pretty decent. But both times I took it with lunch, I felt lethargic. I just took a smaller dose with a late lunch and still feel a bit off, but not as bad as last time. I also read how it can take a few weeks for someone who is sensitive to adrenaline to adjust to thyroid. So my idea was maybe it was smart to just use T3 the first few weeks until I become less sensitive to it and then switch to cynoplus, since I would think it's much easier to knock back on T3 dosage than cynoplus as far as side effects go, but maybe I'm wrong. Do you think maybe 1-2 mcg on an empty stomach 30 min before each meal, every few hours, would be better? I was thinking about taking another dose of T3 when I woke up with the adrenaline rush at 6AM this moing, but was too afraid too. Instead, I took honey and salt, which helped lower my adrenaline reaction. Then later I had more with my breakfast and some B vitamins and a smaller dosage of thyroid. Do you think its good to take more T3 in that situation? I was thinking about what you said about the early effects of T3 too. I definitely expect to go through some "adjustments." I know that when it comes to thyroid, it's largely keep plugging away until you find the right dosage and ratio that is right for you. I just hope I do it with enough caution.

Your general approach seems sound. And the T3 only seems a very reasonable way to calibrate–it's more flexible for making quick changes.

I don't know what the after-lunch lethargy represents. One way to test is by having something fruity or sugary on hand and seeing if the lethargy lifts. As I mentioned, sometimes a newly more efficient metabolism consumes nutrients quickly.

Your decision to use honey and salt for the apparent AM adrenalin event also seems like thoughtful testing. I do not hold myself as an expert. The 1 to a few mgs of T3 before meals 2 or 3 times a day may be one good option.

I much admire and attend to Dr. Peat's views. However, for myself and my friends, I have found the chewing small amounts of a tablet every hour a difficult strategy to maintain during a busy day with pulls in many directions. Micro-amounts very frequently may be necessary for some.

You are being prudent and studious. If safety is a concern, you might read briefly about signs of hyperthyroidism, to have an idea about what responses an overshoot would look like. Though there is individual variation, the gratifying thing about this whole process is that usually a threshold is crossed where a person feels markedly, or dramatically better. It's inconvenient that we don't know exactly where the threshold is, but delightful that folks get there.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=773&hilit=strong+heartbeat

This is something I've been dealing with for quite a long time now. Curiously, it started at the exact same time I started Peating, eating more and trying to boost my metabolism. I am slowly getting better over time, but there were times when it's been pure hell.

Sometimes, when you try to push forward one part of the body the others might be reluctant to follow. In my case taking any amount of T3 further increases my already rather high sensitivity to adrenaline. Might be a good idea to try pregnenolone or progesterone simultaneously (or that first, and thyroid after) to see if you succeed in getting a smoother transition.

In general any kind of palpitations (heartbeat being noticeable in any way) is a sign that things aren't running so smoothly. So if the current approach makes them worse try it from the other angle.

 

[Waremu]

..Thanks for the input. That makes sense. It does seem like most people do better on both T4 and T3. I started cynomel first to see how I reacted to it. I've noticed a lot of people who were very sensitive to adrenaline start out with one or two mcg of T3 per dose and slowly work their way up. I remember Ray Peat saying that it's not too uncommon to have someone who is very sensitive to adrenaline to take one or two mcg every hour or two I believe. I lowered my dose to 1.5mcg for my breakfast and lunch dose just incase it is an adrenaline sensitivity issue. It's interesting how you mention daytime use of T3 in the beginning because one thing I have noticed is that when I take T3 with breakfast I feel pretty decent. But both times I took it with lunch, I felt lethargic. I just took a smaller dose with a late lunch and still feel a bit off, but not as bad as last time. I also read how it can take a few weeks for someone who is sensitive to adrenaline to adjust to thyroid. So my idea was maybe it was smart to just use T3 the first few weeks until I become less sensitive to it and then switch to cynoplus, since I would think it's much easier to knock back on T3 dosage than cynoplus as far as side effects go, but maybe I'm wrong. Do you think maybe 1-2 mcg on an empty stomach 30 min before each meal, every few hours, would be better? I was thinking about taking another dose of T3 when I woke up with the adrenaline rush at 6AM this moing, but was too afraid too. Instead, I took honey and salt, which helped lower my adrenaline reaction. Then later I had more with my breakfast and some B vitamins and a smaller dosage of thyroid. Do you think its good to take more T3 in that situation? I was thinking about what you said about the early effects of T3 too. I definitely expect to go through some "adjustments." I know that when it comes to thyroid, it's largely keep plugging away until you find the right dosage and ratio that is right for you. I just hope I do it with enough caution.

Your general approach seems sound. And the T3 only seems a very reasonable way to calibrate–it's more flexible for making quick changes.

I don't know what the after-lunch lethargy represents. One way to test is by having something fruity or sugary on hand and seeing if the lethargy lifts. As I mentioned, sometimes a newly more efficient metabolism consumes nutrients quickly.

Your decision to use honey and salt for the apparent AM adrenalin event also seems like thoughtful testing. I do not hold myself as an expert. The 1 to a few mgs of T3 before meals 2 or 3 times a day may be one good option.

I much admire and attend to Dr. Peat's views. However, for myself and my friends, I have found the chewing small amounts of a tablet every hour a difficult strategy to maintain during a busy day with pulls in many directions. Micro-amounts very frequently may be necessary for some.

You are being prudent and studious. If safety is a concern, you might read briefly about signs of hyperthyroidism, to have an idea about what responses an overshoot would look like. Though there is individual variation, the gratifying thing about this whole process is that usually a threshold is crossed where a person feels markedly, or dramatically better. It's inconvenient that we don't know exactly where the threshold is, but delightful that folks get there.

Well, since this first post, or my incident this morning, I knocked down my dose of T3 to 1.5 mcg with a small meal every 4 hours and so far, I have to say that today the results have been pretty good. No lathargic feeling like I had yesterday. Just feeling calm and focused and a overall good mood, which is, according to Dr. Peat, a good reaction. I've also been taking plenty of calcium, Vitamin B6, B3, and especially more salt and Vitamin B1 (for the ant-adrenaline effects). My pulse has reached 80-85 BPM and my Body temperature has been 98.0-98.6 since lunch. I've also increased the chocolate syrup in my milk because of its higher mineral content. Oddly, today is the first time I haven't been able to drink very much coffee at all---which again would seem to indicate an adrenaline sensitivity issue, from T3. I do know Dr. Peat recommends coffee because it increases T3 uptake, but I've been replacing that with more coconut oil, which also does the same thing, so that has seemed to work well too. I'm going to try to have some cottage cheese and orange juice and salt in my gelatin tonight right before bed and not take any T3 and see what happens. By doing this, I am thinking that I hopefully won't have another adrenaline rush --- though another dose of T3 right before bed would probably hold me through for another four hours or whatever, it may also exponentiate the level of sensitivity to my nighttime adrenaline when it wears off. So hopefully that will work. I'm going to also sleep with some sugar syrup mixed with salt and Vitamin B6, B3, and B1 near me just incase I do wake up again. Are you taking cynoplus by any chance? If so, how has it been for you?

 

[Waremu]

http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=773&hilit=strong+heartbeat

This is something I've been dealing with for quite a long time now. Curiously, it started at the exact same time I started Peating, eating more and trying to boost my metabolism. I am slowly getting better over time, but there were times when it's been pure hell.

Sometimes, when you try to push forward one part of the body the others might be reluctant to follow. In my case taking any amount of T3 further increases my already rather high sensitivity to adrenaline. Might be a good idea to try pregnenolone or progesterone simultaneously (or that first, and thyroid after) to see if you succeed in getting a smoother transition.

In general any kind of palpitations (heartbeat being noticeable in any way) is a sign that things aren't running so smoothly. So if the current approach makes them worse try it from the other angle.

Yeah, I hear ya buddy. It can be a fight at times. Sorry to hear you had a rough experience with it. I'll check out that link with your post. How has your nutrition been while taking thyroid? I am definitely finding out more and more that thyroid is so dependent on proper nutrition to work correctly. I know a lot of people usually have to change their dose several times before finding the right one that works for them. Have you tried cynoplus also?

 

[lexis]

What are the ingredients in cynoplus?

 

[aguilaroja]

Well, since this first post, or my incident this morning, I knocked down my dose of T3 to 1.5 mcg with a small meal every 4 hours and so far, I have to say that today the results have been pretty good. No lathargic feeling like I had yesterday. Just feeling calm and focused and a overall good mood, which is, according to Dr. Peat, a good reaction. I've also been taking plenty of calcium, Vitamin B6, B3, and especially more salt and Vitamin B1 (for the ant-adrenaline effects). My pulse has reached 80-85 BPM and my Body temperature has been 98.0-98.6 since lunch. I've also increased the chocolate syrup in my milk because of its higher mineral content. Oddly, today is the first time I haven't been able to drink very much coffee at all---which again would seem to indicate an adrenaline sensitivity issue, from T3. I do know Dr. Peat recommends coffee because it increases T3 uptake, but I've been replacing that with more coconut oil, which also does the same thing, so that has seemed to work well too. I'm going to try to have some cottage cheese and orange juice and salt in my gelatin tonight right before bed and not take any T3 and see what happens. By doing this, I am thinking that I hopefully won't have another adrenaline rush --- though another dose of T3 right before bed would probably hold me through for another four hours or whatever, it may also exponentiate the level of sensitivity to my nighttime adrenaline when it wears off. So hopefully that will work. I'm going to also sleep with some sugar syrup mixed with salt and Vitamin B6, B3, and B1 near me just incase I do wake up again. Are you taking cynoplus by any chance? If so, how has it been for you?

Things sound encouraging. Feeling clear beneficial effects in the first two days gives feedback of good progress. Other people may respond more slowly. (There's plenty of room for optimism in slower responding cases too. It's just that unwell people can understandably be eager for relief.)

It took me a while to get to equilibrium with coffee, and I still do better when coffee is paired with fuel (cream or milk, sometimes sugar) or a meal. If you prefer to go without coffee, there are many other restorative nutrients.

I am hoping the B3 mentioned is the amide form-niacinamide and expect that's what's intended. If you are charting temp/pulse, it might help to note a few words about the day, so you can look back in a few weeks for the longer trend.

I have used cynoplus and it was quite useful. I have also used many other T4 & or T3 formulations. That's been a mix of fine tuning and exploration. At times when I need thyroid support, I have found using separate T4 and T3 synthetic (bioidentical) forms allows my to adjust the T4/T3 ratio depending on the situation.

You have made a good decision between T3 and the T4/T3 combos for a start. You are getting improvement early after the change. Since you are clearly tracking things carefully and adjusting, either decision probably will work well.

Another gratifying thing is that when people look back after improving thyroid function, they usually realize other things got better-things that they either expected to "live with" or were convinced would not better.

 

[chelle86]

High waking pulse

I've been reading all that I can on heart rate and thyroid supplementation and I am still a bit confused, even with my own experience, in figuring out what to do. Since starting to eat the Peatarean way 4 weeks ago, beggining nutrimeds bovine thyroid (2 weeks ago), temps have been steadily rising, with the average waking temp of 98.3-98.6 .... that's all great from where it started. With the pulse it's a different story. Usually waking with a pulse of anywhere from 102-120, and after breakfast seeing it drop some days, and raise other days. Began taking cynoplus 4 days ago (1/2 tab with breakfast, 1/2 with lunch). My confusion is with trying to dose the nutrimeds and bovine thyroid and the cynoplus to understand what effect the cynoplus has ... some people say their pulse lowers after taking cynoplus, others say it raises ... I know that everyone is different, and this is a lot of trial and error for us, but does anyone have a way of explaining to me in a simple manner how to dose cynoplus and what is best for such a high pulse rate? My assumption is that it is just going to take time to see everything balance back out and high pulse is from hypothyroidism trying to compensate.
This forum is a lifeline and I appreciate any tips, advice experience from anyone! Thank you

 

[Blossom]

@chelle- In full disclosure I must tell you that I'm still working on adjusting my own thyroid dose using cynomel and cynoplus. Whenever my heart rate is at 100 or above I do not take any thyroid meds. I had a set back a few months ago and I'm just now figuring out why but ever since then I have followed that general guideline that forum member j. (Thanks j.) suggested to me. There are a lot of very experienced and well informed forum members that will hopefully chime in with additional information. I just don't think it is good to have the pulse go above 100 significantly or repeatedly. The average waking temp you mentioned also seems on the high side. I was having that same experience too and the combination of high pulse and high waking temp actually pointed toward my pushing myself inadvertently into a hyperthyroid state. I hesitate to comment because my own experience in this area is so limited but I do think it would be sensible to cut back on some of your thyroid supplements to bring the pulse and waking temp down a bit. Let's hope for more input. A good resting pulse is 85 and a normal waking temp, I will need to verify, but I believe it is 97.8-98.2.

 

[Blossom]

When I was experiencing a similar issue I was informed by Charlie (thanks Charlie) that a waking pulse of 80 or slightly higher was desirable and a waking temp of 97.8-98.2 was adequate. Hope that helps some.

 

[aguilaroja]

I just don't think it is good to have the pulse go above 100 significantly or repeatedly....

I think it's best generally to be wary of resting pulse rates in the range of 100 or higher beats per minute. It is common for the pulse to get that high during intense activity, but not at rest. Physicians, for instance, take that heart rate speed seriously. If the pulse is repeatedly that fast, it would be good to be cautious, stop or reduce dosing, and re-evaluate.

Cynomel per the manufacturer contains 120 mcg of T4 and 30 mcg of T3. It is the T3 part that is best divided during the day, ideally to deliver 4 mcg (or a few mcg) per hour or so (similar to the physiologic amount). My experience is that for most people it is not practical to dose things hourly.

Half a tab of Cynomel contains about 15 mcg of T3. Taking it with food will slow its absorption. However, splitting the tablet into quarters and taking the quarters with food or snack would deliver closer to the physiologic amount. But in this case if the pulse is clearly higher than the 80's, it would be better to scale back (glandular and bio-identical) unless there is in person guidance from a provider AND the clearest thyroid indications.

My experience is that it is more difficult to know what is in the glandular nutrient products, how standardized it is, and how the amount of iodine in the product affects things.

 

[chelle86]

Thanks Blossom -- Never be afraid to input -- I appreciate everyone's thoughts and experiences! This definitely is a tricky business getting everything balanced and figuring each individual thing out, but we'll get this balanced right sooner or later -
What are your thoughts about some saying that when things are first getting started on re-balancing, sometimes our pulse goes high/higher as our adrenals compensate for low temps as we are adjusting thyroid? I understand where our targets should be... but if I back off on the thyroid I've definitely noticed that my temp. goes back down even with pulse staying the same. Pulse has been high since before changing diet and starting thyroid .... it's like it's comfortable there or something!

 

[Blossom]

Thanks Blossom -- Never be afraid to input -- I appreciate everyone's thoughts and experiences! This definitely is a tricky business getting everything balanced and figuring each individual thing out, but we'll get this balanced right sooner or later -
What are your thoughts about some saying that when things are first getting started on re-balancing, sometimes our pulse goes high/higher as our adrenals compensate for low temps as we are adjusting thyroid? I understand where our targets should be... but if I back off on the thyroid I've definitely noticed that my temp. goes back down even with pulse staying the same. Pulse has been high since before changing diet and starting thyroid .... it's like it's comfortable there or something!

This has been tricky for me too and I think part of it has been a long term stress pattern that as you say the body gets comfortably stuck in so to speak. I took prescribed stimulants in the past which I'm sure added insult to injury. I noticed when I would get the pulse too high from thyroid and have to back off my feet would get cold so I had to start to look into other supportive measures. For me taking pregnenolone everyday has been extremely beneficial. I've also noticed niacinamide will warm me up every time! I've had to just fine tune things through experimentation like many here. I was in a pretty poor condition so I've probably required more interventions than many forum members but not all I'm sure. What warms me may not warm you but those are two things that you could research to see if they may be worth trying. Trying one new thing at a time is always ideal so you can judge the effects better. Additionally I use estro-ban which is a vitamin a,d,e and k formula created by forum member haidut. That supplement seem to dramatically decrease my thyroid med requirement. I feel it was mainly the vitamin A in the formula that helped my body make and utilize the hormones better but it is all synergistic imo. It a beautiful place to be really, fine tuning the regenerative measures, I wouldn't want anything different.

 

[SQu]

Waremu you're doing great! This approach, tiny amounts, a few mcgs, has been working really well for me too, I'm about 7 weeks into thyroid and feeling much better for it. But I had unevenness, I had adrenalin from t3, and hypo increase from t4 to begin with. To stabilize the adrenalin response, taking less t3 and adding a tiny bit of t4 did the trick. I know everyone is different, but for me at least, tiny amounts often, and just a bit of t4 at bedtime has been working very well. Every time there's been difficulty, I cut back not add.
I think adrenalin can be sneaky as we are so used to living with it and don't really feel it sometimes, but as soon as I don't feel great I check my pulse and if it's over 95 I slow down on dosing because it's adrenalin. For me, a pulse of 85 is normal, below is more hypo. After T3 I'll feel best when it's between 90 and 95, higher means adrenalin. If I am wondering whether to take another dose, I go by the clock( 3 hour intervals for now simply as a rule of thumb as that seems to be when the last lot will be used up) mood and pulse, if my pulse is higher than about 88 I won't take another dose just yet. Afternoons I would sometimes find my adrenalin up without me realizing due to being busy, they've been trickier to manage.
I don't go by temp though I know I should take it into account - taking your pulse can be done anywhere, anytime. Mercury thermometers can break so mine stays next to my bed! Also in my case, temps have been a bit all over the place though mostly low.