Adrenalin - Histamine - Carrot

[managing]

I've had about 6 weeks to a/b this and it is pretty clear. But I am open to alternate explanations.

Started using the shredded raw carrot thing one to two/day, about 1/2 - 1 cup packed shredded raw carrot. What I've seen is a return of severe allergies and mild asthma which I haven't seen in 20 years. The connection between lowered adrenaline and raised histamine is well-established.

Please help me understand and establish a strategy. I want the benefits I've observed w/ carrot, but I also want not to keep experiencing allergies and asthma.

 

[managing]

Self-serving bump:

So, nobody finds this interesting, or you have no ideas?

One of the most popular Peat Memes--carrot--potentially causing asthma trouble? Not knocking it, because good in oh, so many ways. And no thoughts on how to control the histamine rebound or how long it might last . . .

 

[Mittir]

Are you using organic carrot? I had some skin issues using commercial
carrot, those shiny and polished one. I read they use some kind of chemical
to increase shelf life. Are you eating carrot separate from the meal to avoid
carotene absorption?

I was mildly allergic to carrot according to a skin prick test i had
5-6 years ago. When i first started carrot i was having mild upset stomach
for about 2 months. I was only eating a small carrot. Upset stomach
usually gives me breathing problem. After 2 months i was not having
any issues with raw carrot as long as i stick to organic carrot.
I also had mild flu for a week when i started raw carrot salad.
I think raw carrot is a very powerful antibiotic increasing endotoxin
in the beginning.

I think it is better to start with small amount of carrot and slowly increase
over time. I have also noticed that all organic carrot are not same in
their effectiveness. I get better result from carrot with stronger
astringent taste.

Carrot salad can also lower your blood sugar and low blood sugar
increases allergic reaction. I drink a cup of Apple juice half an hour
before i eat carrot salad and drink another cup after 1.5 to 2 hours.
Eating Carrot salad has been quite complicated for me.

 

[managing]

Are you using organic carrot? I had some skin issues using commercial
carrot, those shiny and polished one. I read they use some kind of chemical
to increase shelf life. Are you eating carrot separate from the meal to avoid
carotene absorption?

I was mildly allergic to carrot according to a skin prick test i had
5-6 years ago. When i first started carrot i was having mild upset stomach
for about 2 months. I was only eating a small carrot. Upset stomach
usually gives me breathing problem. After 2 months i was not having
any issues with raw carrot as long as i stick to organic carrot.
I also had mild flu for a week when i started raw carrot salad.
I think raw carrot is a very powerful antibiotic increasing endotoxin
in the beginning.

I think it is better to start with small amount of carrot and slowly increase
over time. I have also noticed that all organic carrot are not same in
their effectiveness. I get better result from carrot with stronger
astringent taste.

Carrot salad can also lower your blood sugar and low blood sugar
increases allergic reaction. I drink a cup of Apple juice half an hour
before i eat carrot salad and drink another cup after 1.5 to 2 hours.
Eating Carrot salad has been quite complicated for me.

Thanks Mittir. I've definitely seen the low blood sugar with carrot and/or activated charcoal. I think this is due to a decrease in adrenalin, which itself is antagonistic to histamine (adrenalin im is the emergency treatment for asthma attack). Ergo, the histamine bump. I am having a glass of OJ as I write and will have carrot in ~30.

I'll also try limiting the serving size. I am curious about the antibiotic/endotoxin effect if you have any references, peat or otherwise. I've been doing it for awhile now and I've sometimes felt like there was an endotoxin rebound (goes down and then higher than baseline) and have wondered about exactly same effect. So I'll cut back and work up.

Yes, I do w/o meal. Organic, yes. They sometimes appear very fresh and other times not so much. Flavor varies too, but I understand what you mean. Just got some carrots from the farm membership. Probably were pulled out of the ground yesterday, so I'll try those today instead of the usual grocery store carrots.

Thanks again, a thoughtful and helpful reply.

 

[Pet Peeve]

I've had about 6 weeks to a/b this and it is pretty clear. But I am open to alternate explanations.

Started using the shredded raw carrot thing one to two/day, about 1/2 - 1 cup packed shredded raw carrot. What I've seen is a return of severe allergies and mild asthma which I haven't seen in 20 years. The connection between lowered adrenaline and raised histamine is well-established.

Please help me understand and establish a strategy. I want the benefits I've observed w/ carrot, but I also want not to keep experiencing allergies and asthma.

Raw carrot is cross-allergenic with birch pollen, I also got symptoms. You can use canned bamboo shoots instead.

 

[managing]

Raw carrot is cross-allergenic with birch pollen, I also got symptoms. You can use canned bamboo shoots instead.

Interesting and very specific. But I live in coastal northern california. No birch!

 

[Pet Peeve]

Interesting and very specific. But I live in coastal northern california. No birch!

You could still be allergic to birch, it's very common. Cross allergy means that your body mistakes the carrot for birch-pollen, even though you're not really allergic to raw carrot. You could also be allergic to carrot. Any way, canned bamboo shoots does the same job.

 

[Mittir]

Orange juice gives me skin problem. Orange is known to release histamine.

There are lot of studies on antibiotic induced endotoxemia. By definition, gram
negative bacteria release endotoxin when it dies. Here is one study from quick google search.

Diagn Microbiol Infect Dis. 1993 Mar-Apr;16(3):185-9.
Effect of antibiotics on endotoxin release from gram-negative bacteria.
Eng RH1, Smith SM, Fan-Havard P, Ogbara T.
Author information

Abstract
Antibiotics may inhibit bacterial growth or may kill bacteria by inhibiting cell wall synthesis or protein synthesis. The amount of endotoxin released during antibiotic action has been found to be clinically important. Nine antibiotics, representing seven classes, were studied for the amounts of endotoxin released during their action on susceptible strains of Escherichia coli, Klebsiella pneumoniae, Enterobacter cloacae, and Pseudomonas aeruginosa. Staphylococcus aureus, which produces no endotoxin, was used as a control organism. Aztreonam induced the highest release of endotoxin, whereas other antibiotics such as imipenem and the quinolones induced the lowest release of endotoxin. Although the quantities of endotoxin released are not easily explained from the established mechanisms of antibiotic action, our findings may have implications for therapy of the acutely ill, septic patient in whom release of large quantities of endotoxin may be catastrophic.a

Another study showing coconut oil increasing blood endotoxin in pigs. I have seen similar
studies with human. It is the immediate result of antibiotic action. In long term use coconut
oil should lower endotoxin by lowering number of bacteria.

Dietary oil composition differentially modulates intestinal endotoxin transport and postprandial endotoxemia.
Mani V1, Hollis JH, Gabler NK.
Author information

Abstract

BACKGROUND:
Intestinal derived endotoxin and the subsequent endotoxemia can be considered major predisposing factors for diseases such as atherosclerosis, sepsis, obesity and diabetes. Dietary fat has been shown to increase postprandial endotoxemia. Therefore, the aim of this study was to assess the effects of different dietary oils on intestinal endotoxin transport and postprandial endotoxemia using swine as a model. We hypothesized that oils rich in saturated fatty acids (SFA) would augment, while oils rich in n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) would attenuate intestinal endotoxin transport and circulating concentrations.

METHODS:
Postprandial endotoxemia was measured in twenty four pigs following a porridge meal made with either water (Control), fish oil (FO), vegetable oil (VO) or coconut oil (CO). Blood was collected at 0, 1, 2, 3 and 5 hours postprandial and measured for endotoxin. Furthermore, ex vivo ileum endotoxin transport was assessed using modified Ussing chambers and intestines were treated with either no oil or 12.5% (v/v) VO, FO, cod liver oil (CLO), CO or olive oil (OO). Ex vivo mucosal to serosal endotoxin transport permeability (Papp) was then measured by the addition of fluorescent labeled-lipopolysaccharide.

RESULTS:
Postprandial serum endotoxin concentrations were increased after a meal rich in saturated fatty acids and decreased with higher n-3 PUFA intake. Compared to the no oil control, fish oil and CLO which are rich in n-3 fatty acids reduced ex vivo endotoxin Papp by 50% (P < 0.05). Contrarily, saturated fatty acids increased the Papp by 60% (P = 0.008). Olive and vegetable oils did not alter intestinal endotoxin Papp.

CONCLUSION:
Overall, these results indicate that saturated and n-3 PUFA differentially regulate intestinal epithelial endotoxin transport. This may be associated with fatty acid regulation of intestinal membrane lipid raft mediated permeability.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I find that shredded carrot may increase serotonin for me. I think it's a mechanical irritation or perhaps allergy. I can get a headache sometimes from it. I'm still working on it.

Maybe try a quarter carrot and work up to more? I think a lot of Peat things work, but we try to take them on too fast and our bodies can't adapt.

 

[lvysaur]

I am curious about the antibiotic/endotoxin effect if you have any references, peat or otherwise. I've been doing it for awhile now and I've sometimes felt like there was an endotoxin rebound (goes down and then higher than baseline)

Another study showing coconut oil increasing blood endotoxin in pigs. I have seen similar
studies with human. It is the immediate result of antibiotic action. In long term use coconut
oil should lower endotoxin

I can anecdotally confirm this. Recently ate a bunch of carrot with CO and vinegar, which have a strong synergistic antibacterial effect when combined. I experienced intense endotoxin symptoms the next day.

 

[Peater Piper]

Are you consuming the carrots plain? Carrot fiber is actually quite fermentable. I think it's the skins that have the antimicrobial properties. Part of the benefit of adding coconut oil and vinegar to the mix is they have their own antimicrobial properties that the fiber helps escort through the digestive tract. However, some people have trouble with CO and vinegar, vinegar being especially high in histamine. Pet Peeve's idea might be a good one, to try the bamboo shoots in order to rule out if it's an issue with the carrots specifically.

 

[managing]

You could still be allergic to birch, it's very common. Cross allergy means that your body mistakes the carrot for birch-pollen, even though you're not really allergic to raw carrot. You could also be allergic to carrot. Any way, canned bamboo shoots does the same job.

I understand your point a little better now. You can also do the same thing with activated charcoal. Which did not give me the histamine response come to think of it. But did constipate me. I may try the bamboo shoots, but not as convenient.

 

[managing]

I can anecdotally confirm this. Recently ate a bunch of carrot with CO and vinegar, which have a strong synergistic antibacterial effect when combined. I experienced intense endotoxin symptoms the next day.

Yes, and I usually combine it with CO or EVOO for taste (and salt). I could try it "dry" perhaps and see if it mitigates.

At some point though, if a) it is having an antibiotic effect on gut microbia and b) that is giving you endotoxemia symptoms, does it suggest that you NEED the antibiotic effect, and perhaps just need to take it more slowly?

Doesn't 6 weeks seem like a long enough time for the body to adjust? Or not?

Would adding activated charcoal to the carrot enhance or mitigate some of the negative effects?

 

[managing]

Are you consuming the carrots plain? Carrot fiber is actually quite fermentable. I think it's the skins that have the antimicrobial properties. Part of the benefit of adding coconut oil and vinegar to the mix is they have their own antimicrobial properties that the fiber helps escort through the digestive tract. However, some people have trouble with CO and vinegar, vinegar being especially high in histamine. Pet Peeve's idea might be a good one, to try the bamboo shoots in order to rule out if it's an issue with the carrots specifically.

I've been peeling them. But I believe the anti-microbial (and anti-fungal, which adds a whole other dimension) are strongest in skin, but present in other parts.

I also wonder if the mechanical action of the carrot on the intestinal walls is also part? I'll try the bamboo shoot and let you know how that goes. Dry, or with CO/EVOO? I don't add vinegar.

 

[lvysaur]

Doesn't 6 weeks seem like a long enough time for the body to adjust? Or not?

The fact that you're doing it every day might be more harmful than helpful. There is almost zero research on the bactericidal effects of different types of fibers, and the only reason carrot is recommended is because:

A) Peat and many others experience a strong effect from it.
B) It is generally antimicrobial, evidenced by its resistance to spoilage.
C) Carrot extract (IE: without fiber) is known to be antimicrobial.

Bukowski's post on the daily raw carrot

The raw carrot more than doubled breath hydrogen, which is a marker for bacterial fermentation. This effect started to occur after around 10 days of starting the raw carrot.

If the carrot behaves as a mild antibiotic, it shouldn't be surprising that there are bacteria that have a comparative survival advantage from its effects. In other words, some bacteria may be only 90% exterminated, while most bacteria are 99.9% exterminated.

There is also the issue of whether gut sterility or truly protective bacteria are more advantageous, and which condition the anecdotally reported positive effects are caused by. It could be that gut sterility is most desirable, but that this condition is harder to maintain, leading to degeneration if the right foods and habits are not cycled properly.

I personally see benefits from eating the raw carrot whenever I feel the stress symptoms. My other fiber intake comes solely from fruit, I do not consume carrot regularly. As far as I know, there is zero evidence that suggests that carrot fiber is inherently antibacterial, and there is evidence suggesting that regular carrot intake causes bacterial fermentation. My belief is that the carrot contains fiber-bound antimicrobial substances, which act as an antibiotic in the short term.

I am still trying to figure out what differentiates fruit-based fiber from leaf-based fiber, as the former does not give me gas or endotoxic symptoms, while the latter does. I have no experience using charcoal.

 

[managing]

The fact that you're doing it every day might be more harmful than helpful. There is almost zero research on the bactericidal effects of different types of fibers, and the only reason carrot is recommended is because:

A) Peat and many others experience a strong effect from it.
B) It is generally antimicrobial, evidenced by its resistance to spoilage.
C) Carrot extract (IE: without fiber) is known to be antimicrobial.

Bukowski's post on the daily raw carrot



If the carrot behaves as a mild antibiotic, it shouldn't be surprising that there are bacteria that have a comparative survival advantage from its effects. In other words, some bacteria may be only 90% exterminated, while most bacteria are 99.9% exterminated.

There is also the issue of whether gut sterility or truly protective bacteria are more advantageous, and which condition the anecdotally reported positive effects are caused by. It could be that gut sterility is most desirable, but that this condition is harder to maintain, leading to degeneration if the right foods and habits are not cycled properly.

I personally see benefits from eating the raw carrot whenever I feel the stress symptoms. My other fiber intake comes solely from fruit, I do not consume carrot regularly. As far as I know, there is zero evidence that suggests that carrot fiber is inherently antibacterial, and there is evidence suggesting that regular carrot intake causes bacterial fermentation. My belief is that the carrot contains fiber-bound antimicrobial substances, which act as an antibiotic in the short term.

I am still trying to figure out what differentiates fruit-based fiber from leaf-based fiber, as the former does not give me gas or endotoxic symptoms, while the latter does. I have no experience using charcoal.

Its interesting. I have not seen any obvious signs of fermentation related to carrot (ie, bloating/gas). In fact its kept me quite regular. But I am intrigued. I've taken today off and will try bamboo shoots tomorrow.

I don't really desire an antiseptic effect (which nonetheless may happen). I take it for endotoxin and to blunt the adrenalin response I get about 3-4 hours after I eat (warm flush, short of breath).

 

[lvysaur]

I don't really desire an antiseptic effect

I take it for endotoxin

These two things are roughly equivalent. Bacteria produce endotoxin, which raises estrogen.

 

[managing]

These two things are roughly equivalent. Bacteria produce endotoxin, which raises estrogen.

Yes, but I also understand carrot to adsorb and remove endotoxin. This is also a well-accepted function of activated charcoal.

I've often wondered about AC also having an antiseptic effect (ie, also killing microbes and thus releasing endotoxin). And carrot all the more so. Both seem to have a rebound effect.

However, if this is the case, you would expect it to taper off, which it hadn't after 6 weeks. Unless the microbes are reproducing as fast as they are being killed. WHich isn't out of the question.

In either event, carrot seemed superior simply for its ability to move things through the digestive tract quickly compared to AC. I've tried both occasionally.

 

[managing]

Heartburn and itchy skin/rash on the back of my neck 1hr after eating. 2nd day after discontinuing carrot . . .

 

[managing]

Heartburn and itchy skin/rash on the back of my neck 1hr after eating. 2nd day after discontinuing carrot . . .

Definitely endotoxin rebounding from carrot exclusion. Excessive urination 3-6am this morning. But the AC at bedtime fended it off for about 5 hours . . .