A1 Vs A2 Milk - Is The Devil Really In The Milk?

[FunkOdyssey]

Those studies could be used to form a hypothesis but they are both in vitro so they don't prove anything. Any food can be toxic depending on the person, your joking yourself if you think wheat is some kind of poison. Especially based on 2 in vitro studies.

If you don't find in vitro data persuasive, how about the largest and most thorough epidemiological study ever conducted shows a strong association between wheat intake and heart disease?

http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/09/02/the-china-study-wheat-and-heart-disease-oh-my/

 

[j.]

the china study lol

 

[FunkOdyssey]

the china study lol

Author's conclusions were bunk. The data was good

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Everyone knows gluten is a leading cause of a leaky gut but its helpful to demonstrate it experimentally:

Toxicol In Vitro. 2011 Feb;25(1):45-50. doi: 10.1016/j.tiv.2010.09.005. Epub 2010 Sep 17.
Imaging analysis of the gliadin direct effect on tight junctions in an in vitro three-dimensional Lovo cell line culture system.
Elli L, Roncoroni L, Doneda L, Ciulla MM, Colombo R, Braidotti P, Bonura A, Bardella MT.
Source

Center for Prevention and Diagnosis of Celiac Disease, Fondazione IRCCS Cà Granda-Ospedale Maggiore Policlinico, Milano, Italy. [email protected]
Abstract

Tight junctions play a pivotal role in maintaining the integrity of the intestinal barrier. Their alteration is involved in the pathogenesis of celiac disease. Our aim was to investigate the gliadin effect on the tight junction proteins in an in vitro three-dimensional cell culture model through imaging analyses. Lovo multicellular spheroids were treated with enzymatically digested (PT) gliadin 500 μg/mL and its effect on actin, occludin and zonula occludens-1, was evaluated by means of confocal laser microscopy, transmission electron microscopy and image capture analysis. Compared to untreated spheroids, PT-gliadin-treated ones showed enlargement of the paracellular spaces (9.0±6.9 vs. 6.2±1.7 nm, p<0.05) at transmission electron microscopy and tight junction protein alterations at confocal microscopy and image analyses. In untreated cell cultures thickness of the fluorescence contour of actin, zonula occludens-1 and occludin appeared significantly larger and more intense than in the treated ones. In occludin planimetric analysis the lengths of the integral uninterrupted cellular contour appeared longer in untreated than in PT-gliadin treated spheroids (71.8±42.8 vs. 23.4±25.9 μm, p<0.01). Our data demonstrated that tight junction proteins are directly damaged by gliadin as shown by means of quantitative imaging analysis.

PMID: 20850517

 

[repeat]

FunkOdyssey, I believe you are right. I've done a lot of research on this earlier, and even though I don't remember everything, I do remember that gluten is really inflammable, causing a lot of harm and putting a lot of stress on the body. If I remember it correctly it direct or indirectly increase LPS, like the most irritating substance known (kind of). LPS causing leaky gut, and there you go.....

It's kind of hard to accept.... because so much food has it. I've tried a short period gluten-free, and initially I noticed a big difference, better stomach, and actually clearer thinking. Now I use gluten-free products sometimes, because I tam aware of it, but I'm not seeing the same difference as before, partly because my health is generally better compared to then.

(I know celiaks can't afford to cheat, a very little gluten will cause problems to most of them, so it's potent)

 

[repeat]

Yeah, that's it, gliadin causing leaky gut, leaking LPS... causing inflammation throughout the whole body

 

[Mittir]

Ray Peat mentioned in a Josh Rubin interview,that excess estrogen causes gluten intolerance. Estrogen activates transglutaminase and activates immune reaction causing celiac disease, posiaris, cancer, Schizophrenia, arthiritis and many other disease. In another place he mentioned that gluten causes skin aging.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/eastwesthe ... -endotoxin

As for scientific evidence, in celiac world they blame some gene for high rate of celiac among European ancestry.

Current problem with wheat can mostly be attributed to GMO and other method of altering natural wheat.

RP blames all kind of grains, including wheat, for gut irritation.

China study was one of the worst study i have seen. Sadly, most vegan cites this study to make their case.
I think people should be prosecuted for publishing this kind of harmful studies.

 

[repeat]

Ray Peat mentioned in a Josh Rubin interview,that excess estrogen causes gluten intolerance. Estrogen activates transglutaminase and activates immune reaction causing celiac disease, posiaris, cancer, Schizophrenia, arthiritis and many other disease. In another place he mentioned that gluten causes skin aging.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/eastwesthe ... -endotoxin

As for scientific evidence, in celiac world they blame some gene for high rate of celiac among European ancestry.

Current problem with wheat can mostly be attributed to GMO and other method of altering natural wheat.

RP blames all kind of grains, including wheat, for gut irritation.

China study was one of the worst study i have seen. Sadly, most vegan cites this study to make their case.
I think people should be prosecuted for publishing this kind of harmful studies.

I think it's important to look at it in two levels, on one level we can see a group of people or a population have a certain kind of symptoms, and maybe see "evidence" of correlation. That way of thinking never bothers to really know why and how, as for example unopposed estrogen effects on body, and all these endless variations.

My thinking is to not ignore this kind of information, and I don't think Peats ideas are less valid bacause of it.
I think that when it comes to genes, we have learned that they are forming us, that we are helpless. RP talks about how we are much more adaptable to our environment when the cells have energy, not letting genes decide everything.

 

[gretchen]

FunkOdyssey, beta A-1 casein is actually more toxic than wheat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbAdrX-GWZA

In the video, Jordan Rubin says preferring goat/sheep milk to industrial cow milk:
- Cow milk is bad due to how the cow is raised and grain fed, but naturally raised cow milk is a perfect food which could be a major part of diet. Not necessarily useful to consume raw milk, since it can still contain A1 which is key to milk intolerance
- Contains A1 beta casein, which might be the "next gluten". Jordan's main sources are a New Zealand study, a book called "Devil in the Milk" and a preliminary study
- Explanation of what A1 beta casein does in the gut, which parallels gluten. "BCM" output from the A1 beta affects the brain more potently than the gluten counterpart (they sourced that from the book "Devil from the Milk").
- Hypothesis of connection between some diseases and BCM-7, produced when eating A1
- BCM-7 is a major source of cell inflammation throughout the body. Inflammation is the key source of disease.
- Problems with our diets: denatured proteins such as gluten, A1 casein, and many grain proteins, due to how the grains were produced (so its not intrinsic)
- Other problems: pasteurization is bad when pasteurization is at too high temperature, skimming the milk (fat is one critical element missing in American diet), presence of antibiotics, grain-fed milk lacks the very useful CLA fat, in general people are protein deficient...
- Both speakers had very serious health issues and experimented with bad diets, before doing more research (incl. A1 proteins) and finally healing and eating lots of green-fed milk.

A lot of the ideas are very Peaty (hidden inflammation, milk is awesome, people are protein deficient, nutrient deficiencies when eating grains...), others less so (very pro good fats like CLA, not really sugar).

Any comments? From what I've read on this forum, A1 is usually thought to be not an issue. It would be good then to explain why Jordan Rubin and his sources are wrong.

Jordan Rubin is a fraud, all he is trying to do is sell products. He claims that he was suffering from a disease then all of a sudden he drinks kefer and boom he is cured. I was once on that raw milk bandwagon but then I realize that I was spending a lot of money for something that was market as a miracle product (and was not helping me anymore than drinking milk from the store).

The study done by New Zealanders is on the bases that DNA is the centrality of life, (Which ray peats disagrees withs) and that a mutation happened thousands of years ago ( like mutations cannot happen now ) And how the a1 is producing heart disease, diabetes and other health problems. Which ignore fundamental endocrinology issues like hypothyroid, increase estrogen, decrease in progesterone and other protective hormones. I would like to see them cure anyones of these issues with just milk alone. Aint happenin!

Is everyone who disagrees with RP and sells something a fraud? Hmmm, seems like a lot of the people debating the A2 issue are trying to help people.......
All good and well- we'll have to agree to disagree. Team RP can continue drinking A1 cow's milk and try to produce the perfect balance necessary to cope with its effects. One week off it and I can tell a difference- I'll never go back. Remember, he says to find milk that works for you.

Just looking at an A1 Holstein cow you can tell something is wrong with it:

 

[jyb]

I'm guessing A2 cows are more likely to be grass-fed, contrary to corn-fed A1 even organic. Maybe this explains why some tolerate A2 better?

 

[saul42]

By the way to the person who posted a quote stating CLA is good or an article claiming it was good. CLA is far from good. Its a PUFA and all PUFA's are bad period. The evidence against PUFA's if you bother to look is damming.

Here is a link that shows CLA is A PUFA
http://www.midvalleyvu.com/CLA.html

and here is one of the best studies showing the damaging effects of PUFA on a group of People

Israel has one of the highest dietary polyunsaturated/saturated fat ratios in the world; the consumption of omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) is about 8% higher than in the USA, and 10-12% higher than in most European countries. In fact, Israeli Jews may be regarded as a population-based dietary experiment of the effect of a high omega-6 PUFA diet, a diet that until recently was widely recommended. Despite such national habits, there is paradoxically a high prevalence of cardiovascular diseases, hypertension, non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus and obesity-all diseases that are associated with hyperinsulinemia (HI) and insulin resistance (IR), and grouped together as the insulin resistance syndrome or syndrome X. There is also an increased cancer incidence and mortality rate, especially in women, compared with western countries. Studies suggest that high omega-6 linoleic acid consumption might aggravate HI and IR, in addition to being a substrate for lipid peroxidation and free radical formation. Thus, rather than being beneficial, high omega-6 PUFA diets may have some long-term side effects, within the cluster of hyperinsulinemia, atherosclerosis and tumorigenesis.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term ... ated%20fat

 

[Gabriel]

Its a PUFA and all PUFA's are bad period.

Research and science is never period, period.

Despite their high PUFA intake, Israel has the 4th highest life expectancy in the world (list), way higher than the US who are on place 33. Doesn't look like a high PUFA intake will cause people to die like the flies. I'm not suggesting PUFAs are good (I avoid them as well) but saying PUFA is the evil of everything doesnt have much scientific basis either.

CLA, among all PUFAs, has some beneficial effects and their content in full fat milk certainly doesnt pose a threat. Of course you shouldnt eat pure CLA, just as you shouldnt eat a high PUFA-corn oil, but nobody suggested that.

In regard to the gluten discussion, this paper showed that non-celiac gluten-sensitive individuals have decreased (!) gut permeability i.e. a better gut barrier than healthy controls. So not as clear cut at all.

All in all, I agree with cliff that demonizing single constituents of foods in a generalizing way is neither helpful nor reflects the complexity of our current scientific evidence.

 

[saul42]

Its a PUFA and all PUFA's are bad period.

Research and science is never period, period.

Despite their high PUFA intake, Israel has the 4th highest life expectancy in the world (list), way higher than the US who are on place 33. Doesn't look like a high PUFA intake will cause people to die like the flies. I'm not suggesting PUFAs are good (I avoid them as well) but saying PUFA is the evil of everything doesnt have much scientific basis either.

CLA, among all PUFAs, has some beneficial effects and their content in full fat milk certainly doesnt pose a threat. Of course you shouldnt eat pure CLA, just as you shouldnt eat a high PUFA-corn oil, but nobody suggested that.

In regard to the gluten discussion, this paper showed that non-celiac gluten-sensitive individuals have decreased (!) gut permeability i.e. a better gut barrier than healthy controls. So not as clear cut at all.

All in all, I agree with cliff that demonizing single constituents of foods in a generalizing way is neither helpful nor reflects the complexity of our current scientific evidence.

You could live longer by taking drugs to keep you alive, which is the case today. If the drugs were eliminated and people continued with their bad life style habits they would be living a lot less.

If you look at Weston price's research, it clearly shows that cultures that consumed high amounts of saturated fat fared the best. Even in the US before seed oils were introduced diabetes, CHD, cancer and other inflammatory diseases were not so rampant. The single factor that stands out the most is PUFA's.

Finally its not how long you live but how well you live. Living a long miserable life is not something most sane individuals would opt for. So i am sure the Israeli's would prefer to live longer without having to deal with all those inflammatory disorders.

another recent study was conducted using PUFA's and two people in the group became diabetic after being in the program. One cannot avoid PUFA's as it is present in small amounts in food but going out of your way to add it to your diet does not make sense in light of the evidence against it.

If you feel otherwise that is fine. I was just pointing out that CLA is a PUFA (as many might not be aware of it as so many are not even aware that omega 3 and fish oils are also PUFA's) and some very clear evidence supporting the dangers associated with consuming PUFA.

If you are going to get ticked of by data then you need to deal with your own demons. I am not telling anyone what they should or should not do. That is an individual choice

 

[cliff]

I'm pretty sure ray thinks CLA is good or at the very least benign

 

[Gabriel]

As far as I know the age-adjusted incidence and mortality of cardiovascular disease and cancer is decreasing in the US, despite the increase in PUFA consumption.

 

[Swandattur]

Edward, in a scientific study post, mentioned that it is not just about tight junctions in the intestines, it may be more about appropriate permeability. Or that is what it sounded like he was saying to me.

Maybe a high PUFA diet is why Israel is such an aggressive country these days.

 

[jaguar43]

FunkOdyssey, beta A-1 casein is actually more toxic than wheat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbAdrX-GWZA

In the video, Jordan Rubin says preferring goat/sheep milk to industrial cow milk:
- Cow milk is bad due to how the cow is raised and grain fed, but naturally raised cow milk is a perfect food which could be a major part of diet. Not necessarily useful to consume raw milk, since it can still contain A1 which is key to milk intolerance
- Contains A1 beta casein, which might be the "next gluten". Jordan's main sources are a New Zealand study, a book called "Devil in the Milk" and a preliminary study
- Explanation of what A1 beta casein does in the gut, which parallels gluten. "BCM" output from the A1 beta affects the brain more potently than the gluten counterpart (they sourced that from the book "Devil from the Milk").
- Hypothesis of connection between some diseases and BCM-7, produced when eating A1
- BCM-7 is a major source of cell inflammation throughout the body. Inflammation is the key source of disease.
- Problems with our diets: denatured proteins such as gluten, A1 casein, and many grain proteins, due to how the grains were produced (so its not intrinsic)
- Other problems: pasteurization is bad when pasteurization is at too high temperature, skimming the milk (fat is one critical element missing in American diet), presence of antibiotics, grain-fed milk lacks the very useful CLA fat, in general people are protein deficient...
- Both speakers had very serious health issues and experimented with bad diets, before doing more research (incl. A1 proteins) and finally healing and eating lots of green-fed milk.

A lot of the ideas are very Peaty (hidden inflammation, milk is awesome, people are protein deficient, nutrient deficiencies when eating grains...), others less so (very pro good fats like CLA, not really sugar).

Any comments? From what I've read on this forum, A1 is usually thought to be not an issue. It would be good then to explain why Jordan Rubin and his sources are wrong.

Jordan Rubin is a fraud, all he is trying to do is sell products. He claims that he was suffering from a disease then all of a sudden he drinks kefer and boom he is cured. I was once on that raw milk bandwagon but then I realize that I was spending a lot of money for something that was market as a miracle product (and was not helping me anymore than drinking milk from the store).

The study done by New Zealanders is on the bases that DNA is the centrality of life, (Which ray peats disagrees withs) and that a mutation happened thousands of years ago ( like mutations cannot happen now ) And how the a1 is producing heart disease, diabetes and other health problems. Which ignore fundamental endocrinology issues like hypothyroid, increase estrogen, decrease in progesterone and other protective hormones. I would like to see them cure anyones of these issues with just milk alone. Aint happenin!

Is everyone who disagrees with RP and sells something a fraud? Hmmm, seems like a lot of the people debating the A2 issue are trying to help people.......
All good and well- we'll have to agree to disagree. Team RP can continue drinking A1 cow's milk and try to produce the perfect balance necessary to cope with its effects. One week off it and I can tell a difference- I'll never go back. Remember, he says to find milk that works for you.

Just looking at an A1 Holstein cow you can tell something is wrong with it:

I actually had raw milk a2 and felt no different than regular milk.

All of the evidence from Jordan Rubin is the exact opposite of Ray Peats Research. If you care to debate the science then feel free to post.

 

[Swandattur]

The cow is really cute! :)

 

[jaguar43]

Its a PUFA and all PUFA's are bad period.

Research and science is never period, period.

Despite their high PUFA intake, Israel has the 4th highest life expectancy in the world (list), way higher than the US who are on place 33. Doesn't look like a high PUFA intake will cause people to die like the flies. I'm not suggesting PUFAs are good (I avoid them as well) but saying PUFA is the evil of everything doesnt have much scientific basis either.

CLA, among all PUFAs, has some beneficial effects and their content in full fat milk certainly doesnt pose a threat. Of course you shouldnt eat pure CLA, just as you shouldnt eat a high PUFA-corn oil, but nobody suggested that.

In regard to the gluten discussion, this paper showed that non-celiac gluten-sensitive individuals have decreased (!) gut permeability i.e. a better gut barrier than healthy controls. So not as clear cut at all.

All in all, I agree with cliff that demonizing single constituents of foods in a generalizing way is neither helpful nor reflects the complexity of our current scientific evidence.

You could live longer by taking drugs to keep you alive, which is the case today. If the drugs were eliminated and people continued with their bad life style habits they would be living a lot less.

If you look at Weston price's research, it clearly shows that cultures that consumed high amounts of saturated fat fared the best. Even in the US before seed oils were introduced diabetes, CHD, cancer and other inflammatory diseases were not so rampant. The single factor that stands out the most is PUFA's.

Finally its not how long you live but how well you live. Living a long miserable life is not something most sane individuals would opt for. So i am sure the Israeli's would prefer to live longer without having to deal with all those inflammatory disorders.

another recent study was conducted using PUFA's and two people in the group became diabetic after being in the program. One cannot avoid PUFA's as it is present in small amounts in food but going out of your way to add it to your diet does not make sense in light of the evidence against it.

If you feel otherwise that is fine. I was just pointing out that CLA is a PUFA (as many might not be aware of it as so many are not even aware that omega 3 and fish oils are also PUFA's) and some very clear evidence supporting the dangers associated with consuming PUFA.

If you are going to get ticked of by data then you need to deal with your own demons. I am not telling anyone what they should or should not do. That is an individual choice

Um No...CLA has protective properties. Its found in milk products and meat.



Anti-inflammatory diets, including nutraceutical applications of CLA, may be beneficial in moderating cyclooygenase 2 (COX-2) activity or expression (influencing PGE2 biosynthesis) and might help to reduce rheumatoid arthritis (secondary osteoporosis). This review summarizes findings of CLA on bone modeling in rats and effects on cellular functions of osteoblasts and chondrocytes. These experiments indicate that CLA isomers possess anti-inflammatory activity in bone by moderating prostanoid formation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10963468


We hypothesize that the anticancer response to vaccenic acid is likely to be mediated by its endogenous conversion to CLA via delta 9-desaturase.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12094634

The effect of CLA in vivo could not be explained by COX inhibition alone, as urinary prostaglandin levels were unchanged in animals receiving CLA supplementation, and administration of selective COX inhibitors did not induce lesion regression. There was however induction of PPAR gamma, a known response to agonists of this nuclear orphan receptor.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14505483

CLA and pufa from corn oil are chemically different.

When meat is grilled at a high temperature, the normally spaced double bonds in PUFA migrate towards each other, becoming more stable, so that linoleic acid is turned into “conjugated linoleic acid.” This analog of the “essential” linoleic acid competes against the linoleic acid in tissues, and protects against cancer, atherosclerosis, inflammation and other effects of the normal PUFA. Presumably, anything which interferes with the essential fatty acids is protective, when the organism contains dangerous amounts of PUFA. Even the trans-isomers of the unsaturated fatty acids (found in butterfat, and convertible into conjugated linoleic acid) can be protective against cancer.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fa ... ion3.shtml


Um yea most of the people here understand the importance of Weston A Price. But the WAPF has skewed the information towards maximizing ideology.

 

[gretchen]

I've drank some cow's milk the last 48 hours or so and feel like crap. YIKES cow's milk is scary. I really believe the A1 factor might be legit- I can't imagine ever tolerating it.