A1 Vs A2 Milk - Is The Devil Really In The Milk?

burtlancast

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Mittir said:
Ray Peat :
"No. I think the only thing I have said relating to that referred to the people who claim that milk is related to autism, schizophrenia, and SIDS: "They are definitely a bunch of milk intolerant people, and they seem a little psychotic, so I see a connection," but the connection had to do with the mental health of the propagandists, not the effects of casein."

Even people who look at casein without making the distinction between A1 and A2 have shown an higher than normal amount of anti-casein IGg responsible for a prolonged immune response among people with schizophrenia .

Association between bovine casein antibody and new onset schizophrenia among US military personnel. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21376538) (2011)

Schizophrenia is a pervasive neuropsychiatric disorder of uncertain etiology. Multiple studies have documented immune activation in individuals with schizophrenia. One antigen capable of inducing a prolonged immune response is bovine casein derived from ingested milk products. Increased levels of casein antibodies have been found in individuals with schizophrenia after diagnosis. This study was directed at determining the potential association between schizophrenia and pre-illness onset levels of immunoglobulin G (IgG) antibodies to bovine casein. Parallel analyses for casein antibody levels with bipolar disorder were included as comparison. Cases were service members who received medical discharges from the military with a schizophrenia diagnosis from 1992 to 2005. Serum specimens were selected for 855 cases and 1165 matched healthy controls. IgG antibodies to bovine whole-casein were measured by solid phase enzyme-linked immunosorbent assays (ELISAs). Hazard ratios (HR) were calculated to examine the associations of casein IgG level with risk of schizophrenia by time to diagnosis and by subjects' initial level. Increasing casein IgG antibody levels among those with a high initial level, drawn before diagnosis, was associated with an 18% increase in the hazard risk of schizophrenia per unit increase (value of low-positive standard) in IgG antibody levels (HR=1.18; 95% CI 1.04, 1.34). This is the first report to identify an association between the risk of schizophrenia and elevated antibodies to bovine casein prior to disease onset. Additional research is required to elucidate the complex genetic environmental interactions involved in the pathogenesis of schizophrenia and to identify potentially modifiable risk factors.

NUTRITION AND BEHAVIOUR:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0kvaulUIfc
Schizophrenia triggered by brain allergies to foods.
"60% of people with schizophrenia have been found allergic to milk. All schizophrenics are allergic to gluten/ gliadin"
At 38.00 in the lecture.

I'm not sure how Ray can discount those.
 

pboy

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the bottom line is I can digest milk fine and am not schizo or retarded or whatever, ADD, or whatever the claim is. How do you explain that? If other people are intolerant, I have no idea why but the fact that they have to justify it through technical jargon that doesn't pan out to anything real, tangible, or substantial, or have anything to do with the history of milk...I don't care, if you cant or don't want to drink milk, don't. But theres literally millions of people who consume A1 milk everyday and it nourishes them with no side effects. How do you explain that? Are they just unaware that they are actually insane and their bowels are inflamed? Its ridiculous to think that every person who consumes A1 is going to suffer issues, millions of healthy, active, lean, intelligent people consume A1 milk everyday. Have you ever been to Switzerland, Sweden, France, ect?
 

4peatssake

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burtlancast said:
schizophrenia among US military personnel.
Personally, I don't think it's the milk, but I dare say there are many who would have us think so.
 

burtlancast

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4peatssake said:
burtlancast said:
schizophrenia among US military personnel.
Personally, I don't think it's the milk, but I dare say there are many who would have us think so.

Golf war syndrome seems to be a waisting or debilitating disease. These people get infections, lose weight, get depressed, etc...

More often than not, someone categorised as depressive was in fact schizophrenic. But not the contrary: it's very rare for someone found schizophrenic to only suffer from depression.

So i doubt schizophrenia is caused by this gulf war syndrome.
 

FunkOdyssey

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pboy said:
the bottom line is I can digest milk fine and am not schizo or retarded or whatever, ADD, or whatever the claim is. How do you explain that? If other people are intolerant, I have no idea why but the fact that they have to justify it through technical jargon that doesn't pan out to anything real, tangible, or substantial, or have anything to do with the history of milk...I don't care, if you cant or don't want to drink milk, don't. But theres literally millions of people who consume A1 milk everyday and it nourishes them with no side effects. How do you explain that? Are they just unaware that they are actually insane and their bowels are inflamed? Its ridiculous to think that every person who consumes A1 is going to suffer issues, millions of healthy, active, lean, intelligent people consume A1 milk everyday. Have you ever been to Switzerland, Sweden, France, ect?

To be fair, you can say the exact same thing about wheat. Millions of healthy, active, lean, intelligent people consume wheat every day. And yet, I think everyone here would accept that it is a toxic food, which is inherently inflammatory and provokes autoimmunity in the susceptible. The fact that healthy people are able to withstand toxins without developing obvious poor health doesn't necessarily prove anything.
 

burtlancast

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Exactly.
A lot of people are able to whitstand A1 milk without obvious discomfort/ disease.
This is why it took epidemiological data ( with an extremely high and unusually signifiant correlation factor) to detect an increased association between A1 and illness.
Subsequent lab experiences with animals confirmed the hypothesis.
Right now it's a hot bed for research.
 

gretchen

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FunkOdyssey said:
pboy said:
the bottom line is I can digest milk fine and am not schizo or retarded or whatever, ADD, or whatever the claim is. How do you explain that? If other people are intolerant, I have no idea why but the fact that they have to justify it through technical jargon that doesn't pan out to anything real, tangible, or substantial, or have anything to do with the history of milk...I don't care, if you cant or don't want to drink milk, don't. But theres literally millions of people who consume A1 milk everyday and it nourishes them with no side effects. How do you explain that? Are they just unaware that they are actually insane and their bowels are inflamed? Its ridiculous to think that every person who consumes A1 is going to suffer issues, millions of healthy, active, lean, intelligent people consume A1 milk everyday. Have you ever been to Switzerland, Sweden, France, ect?

To be fair, you can say the exact same thing about wheat. Millions of healthy, active, lean, intelligent people consume wheat every day. And yet, I think everyone here would accept that it is a toxic food, which is inherently inflammatory and provokes autoimmunity in the susceptible. The fact that healthy people are able to withstand toxins without developing obvious poor health doesn't necessarily prove anything.

FunkOdyssey, beta A-1 casein is actually more toxic than wheat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbAdrX-GWZA

4peatssake, have you read Dadamo's books, eaten right for your blood type or genotyped yourself?........
Saying I should eat food I "like" when everyone on this forum eats from a strictly agreed upon list of foods is ridiculous.... you eat what Ray Peat tells you to.

pboy, are you saying you think there is no link between the BCM-7 mutation and the state of people's health today? Really? The fact that people today drink it and don't complain doesn't tell much. If you follow the media story, it has actually been getting less popular every year. In the 90s they had the whole "milk does a body good" campaign to keep people brainwashed. The general public knows nothing about it...... they are utterly lost. They just learned about gluten last year. All they have heard is that it is a neolithic food, something that other species don't eat, or is from cows that have been mistreated; some say they are lactose intolerant etc, etc. There were studies in the early 2000s which linked dairy to weight loss. But those have also been shown to be inconclusive. BCM-7 finally explains what's wrong with it..... that RP doesn't agree doesn't matter.

I wonder if some of you have contemplated what a "devil" in the milk actually means........
 

4peatssake

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gretchen said:
4peatssake, have you read Dadamo's books, eaten right for your blood type or genotyped yourself?........
Yes and so what? I'm not here to nor interested in discussing Dadamo and his books, despite your repeated attempts to have me do so. :roll:

gretchen said:
Saying I should eat food I "like" when everyone on this forum eats from a strictly agreed upon list of foods is ridiculous....
uhm, I didn't tell you what to eat. I said it was important to eat food that you like. "You" being everyone. It's stressful to force yourself to eat food you don't like but think you should eat. And stress is harmful.

gretchen said:
you eat what Ray Peat tells you to.
Actually no, I don't.
 

jyb

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gretchen said:
FunkOdyssey, beta A-1 casein is actually more toxic than wheat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbAdrX-GWZA

In the video, Jordan Rubin says preferring goat/sheep milk to industrial cow milk:
- Cow milk is bad due to how the cow is raised and grain fed, but naturally raised cow milk is a perfect food which could be a major part of diet. Not necessarily useful to consume raw milk, since it can still contain A1 which is key to milk intolerance
- Contains A1 beta casein, which might be the "next gluten". Jordan's main sources are a New Zealand study, a book called "Devil in the Milk" and a preliminary study
- Explanation of what A1 beta casein does in the gut, which parallels gluten. "BCM" output from the A1 beta affects the brain more potently than the gluten counterpart (they sourced that from the book "Devil from the Milk").
- Hypothesis of connection between some diseases and BCM-7, produced when eating A1
- BCM-7 is a major source of cell inflammation throughout the body. Inflammation is the key source of disease.
- Problems with our diets: denatured proteins such as gluten, A1 casein, and many grain proteins, due to how the grains were produced (so its not intrinsic)
- Other problems: pasteurization is bad when pasteurization is at too high temperature, skimming the milk (fat is one critical element missing in American diet), presence of antibiotics, grain-fed milk lacks the very useful CLA fat, in general people are protein deficient...
- Both speakers had very serious health issues and experimented with bad diets, before doing more research (incl. A1 proteins) and finally healing and eating lots of green-fed milk.

A lot of the ideas are very Peaty (hidden inflammation, milk is awesome, people are protein deficient, nutrient deficiencies when eating grains...), others less so (very pro good fats like CLA, not really sugar).

Any comments? From what I've read on this forum, A1 is usually thought to be not an issue. It would be good then to explain why Jordan Rubin and his sources are wrong.
 

jaguar43

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jyb said:
gretchen said:
FunkOdyssey, beta A-1 casein is actually more toxic than wheat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbAdrX-GWZA

In the video, Jordan Rubin says preferring goat/sheep milk to industrial cow milk:
- Cow milk is bad due to how the cow is raised and grain fed, but naturally raised cow milk is a perfect food which could be a major part of diet. Not necessarily useful to consume raw milk, since it can still contain A1 which is key to milk intolerance
- Contains A1 beta casein, which might be the "next gluten". Jordan's main sources are a New Zealand study, a book called "Devil in the Milk" and a preliminary study
- Explanation of what A1 beta casein does in the gut, which parallels gluten. "BCM" output from the A1 beta affects the brain more potently than the gluten counterpart (they sourced that from the book "Devil from the Milk").
- Hypothesis of connection between some diseases and BCM-7, produced when eating A1
- BCM-7 is a major source of cell inflammation throughout the body. Inflammation is the key source of disease.
- Problems with our diets: denatured proteins such as gluten, A1 casein, and many grain proteins, due to how the grains were produced (so its not intrinsic)
- Other problems: pasteurization is bad when pasteurization is at too high temperature, skimming the milk (fat is one critical element missing in American diet), presence of antibiotics, grain-fed milk lacks the very useful CLA fat, in general people are protein deficient...
- Both speakers had very serious health issues and experimented with bad diets, before doing more research (incl. A1 proteins) and finally healing and eating lots of green-fed milk.

A lot of the ideas are very Peaty (hidden inflammation, milk is awesome, people are protein deficient, nutrient deficiencies when eating grains...), others less so (very pro good fats like CLA, not really sugar).

Any comments? From what I've read on this forum, A1 is usually thought to be not an issue. It would be good then to explain why Jordan Rubin and his sources are wrong.

Jordan Rubin is a fraud, all he is trying to do is sell products. He claims that he was suffering from a disease then all of a sudden he drinks kefer and boom he is cured. I was once on that raw milk bandwagon but then I realize that I was spending a lot of money for something that was market as a miracle product (and was not helping me anymore than drinking milk from the store).

The study done by New Zealanders is on the bases that DNA is the centrality of life, (Which ray peats disagrees withs) and that a mutation happened thousands of years ago ( like mutations cannot happen now :roll: ) And how the a1 is producing heart disease, diabetes and other health problems. Which ignore fundamental endocrinology issues like hypothyroid, increase estrogen, decrease in progesterone and other protective hormones. I would like to see them cure anyones of these issues with just milk alone. Aint happenin!
 

Jenn

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There was a time when an all milk diet could do just that, be a cure-all. We, as a society, are just not that healthy anymore nor do we live in the same environment. Corn oil is more dangerous than A1 milk. :2cents
 

pboy

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guys watch out...I opened a milk carton today and the devil himself jumped out and bit me! I asked for a refund but they didn't' give it to me
 

4peatssake

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pboy said:
guys watch out...I opened a milk carton today and the devil himself jumped out and bit me! I asked for a refund but they didn't' give it to me
rolling-lol.gif
 

jaguar43

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Jenn said:
There was a time when an all milk diet could do just that, be a cure-all. We, as a society, are just not that healthy anymore nor do we live in the same environment. Corn oil is more dangerous than A1 milk. :2cents

In what way, the idea about how all people are "degenerates" in the weston a price ideology is wrong in my experience. Growing up I had extremely flat feet, to the point that I could not walk. In the WAPF videos they would say, " look at people who had flat feet thats what it looks like to be a degenerate". But once i started on thyroid medication my arch began to grow. Ray peats article are far more in depth than most people will ever realize.
 

cliff

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FunkOdyssey said:
pboy said:
the bottom line is I can digest milk fine and am not schizo or retarded or whatever, ADD, or whatever the claim is. How do you explain that? If other people are intolerant, I have no idea why but the fact that they have to justify it through technical jargon that doesn't pan out to anything real, tangible, or substantial, or have anything to do with the history of milk...I don't care, if you cant or don't want to drink milk, don't. But theres literally millions of people who consume A1 milk everyday and it nourishes them with no side effects. How do you explain that? Are they just unaware that they are actually insane and their bowels are inflamed? Its ridiculous to think that every person who consumes A1 is going to suffer issues, millions of healthy, active, lean, intelligent people consume A1 milk everyday. Have you ever been to Switzerland, Sweden, France, ect?

To be fair, you can say the exact same thing about wheat. Millions of healthy, active, lean, intelligent people consume wheat every day. And yet, I think everyone here would accept that it is a toxic food, which is inherently inflammatory and provokes autoimmunity in the susceptible. The fact that healthy people are able to withstand toxins without developing obvious poor health doesn't necessarily prove anything.

Anyone who agrees to this is a moron who doesn't get ray peats philosophy. Wheat isn't inherently bad
 

FunkOdyssey

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cliff said:
Anyone who agrees to this is a moron who doesn't get ray peats philosophy. Wheat isn't inherently bad

Gluten produces an inflammatory response in human intestinal cells, which has been shown repeatedly in a number of experiments. This is unrelated to celiac disease -- it happens universally, in everyone. It's also been shown that having the right bifidobacteria present can partially mitigate this inflammatory response, so if you are robustly healthy, with the correct gut flora, you may not see obvious symptoms.

Whether someone is a moron has no relation to their grasp of Peat philosophy. Personally, my interest in Peat'ology extends only as far as it aligns with reality. In the case of wheat though, Ray Peat is right on the mark, as he states in clear terms that gluten is "toxic to everyone": http://peatarian.com/11473/setting-the-record-straight-peats-view-on-gluten

A better definition of moron might be someone who denies readily observable realities. I wouldn't label anyone that way though -- name-calling has no place in civilized discussion.
 

cliff

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It's universal and has been shown in everyone where? I don't remember them ever testing me so I don't see how it's possible it's been shown in everyone ;)

I should have been more clear my original comment was in regards to you saying that wheat is a toxic food. Gluten in large amounts maybe? Water is toxic in large amounts too.
 

FunkOdyssey

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cliff said:
It's universal and has been shown in everyone where? I don't remember them ever testing me so I don't see how it's possible it's been shown in everyone ;)

Unless your intestinal cells are fundamentally different than the standard human Caco-2 cell lines used in studies it happens to you too:

J Physiol Biochem. 2010 Jun;66(2):153-9. Epub 2010 Jun 1.

Gliadins induce TNFalpha production through cAMP-dependent protein kinase A activation in intestinal cells (Caco-2).

Laparra Llopis JM, Sanz Herranz Y.
Microbial Ecophysiology and Nutrition Group, Instituto de Agroquímica y Tecnología de Alimentos (CSIC), Apartado 73, 46100 Burjassot, Valencia, Spain. [email protected]

Abstract
Celiac disease is an autoimmune enteropathy caused by a permanent intolerance to gliadins. In this study the effects of two gliadin-derived peptides (PA2, PQPQLPYPQPQLP and PA9, QLQPFPQPQLPY) on TNFalpha production by intestinal epithelial cells (Caco-2) and whether these effects were related to protein kinase A (PKA) and/or -C (PKC) activities have been evaluated. Caco-2 cell cultures were challenged with several sets of gliadin peptides solutions (0.25 mg/mL), with/without different activators of PKA or PKC, bradykinin (Brdkn) and pyrrolidine dithiocarbamate (PDTC). The gliadin-derived peptides assayed represent the two major immunodominant epitopes of the peptide 33-mer of alpha-gliadin (56-88) (LQLQPFPQPQLPYPQPQLPYPQPQLPYPQPQPF). Both peptides induced the TNFalpha production triggering the inflammatory cell responses, the PA2 being more effective. The addition of the peptides in the presence of dibutyril cyclic AMP (cAMP), Brdkn or PDTC, inhibited the TNFalpha production. The PKC-activator phorbol 12-myristate 13-diacetate additionally increased the PA2- and PA9-induced TNFalpha production. These results link the gliadin-derived peptides induced TNFalpha production through cAMP-dependent PKA activation, where ion channels controlling calcium influx into cells could play a protective role, and requires NF-kappaB activation.

PMID: 20514534

The right gut flora afford PARTIAL protection:

J Cell Biochem. 2010 Mar 1;109(4):801-7.

Bifidobacteria inhibit the inflammatory response induced by gliadins in intestinal epithelial cells via modifications of toxic peptide generation during digestion.

Laparra JM, Sanz Y.
Instituto de Agroquímica y Tecnología de Alimentos (CSIC), Burjassot (Valencia), Spain.

Abstract
Celiac disease (CD) is a chronic enteropathy triggered by intake of gliadin, the toxic component of gluten. This study aims at evaluating the capacity of different Bifidobacterium strains to counteract the inflammatory effects of gliadin-derived peptides in intestinal epithelial (Caco-2) cells. A commercial extract of several gliadin (Gld) types (alpha, beta, gamma, [symbol: see text] ) was subjected to in vitro gastrointestinal digestion (pepsin at pH 3, pancreatin-bile at pH 6), inoculated or not with cell suspensions (10(8) colony forming units/ml) of either B. animalis IATA-A2, B. longum IATA-ES1, or B. bifidum IATA-ES2, in a bicameral system. The generated gliadin-derived peptides were identified by reverse phase-HPLC-ESI-MS/MS. Caco-2 cell cultures were exposed to the different gliadin peptide digestions (0.25 mg protein/ml), and the mRNA expression of nuclear factor kappa-B (NF-kappaB), tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNF-alpha), and chemokine CXCR3 receptor were analyzed by semi-quantitative reverse transcriptase-polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR) in stimulated cells. The production of the pro-inflammatory markers NF-kappaB p50, TNF-alpha, and IL-1beta (interleukine 1beta) by Caco-2 cells was also determined by ELISA. The peptides from gliadin digestions inoculated with bifidobacteria did not exhibit the toxic amino acid sequences identified in those noninoculated (alpha/beta-Gld [158-164] and alpha/beta-Gld [122-141]). The RT-PCR analysis evidenced a down-regulation in mRNA expression of pro-inflammatory biomarkers. Consistent with these results the production of NF-kappaB, TNF-alpha, and IL-1beta was reduced (18.2-22.4%, 28.0-64.8%, and abolished, respectively) in cell cultures exposed to gliadin digestions inoculated with bifidobacteria. Therefore, bifidobacteria change the gliadin-derived peptide pattern and, thereby, attenuate their pro-inflammatory effects on Caco-2 cells.

PMID: 20052669
 

cliff

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Those studies could be used to form a hypothesis but they are both in vitro so they don't prove anything. Any food can be toxic depending on the person, your joking yourself if you think wheat is some kind of poison. Especially based on 2 in vitro studies.
 

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