A Word Of Caution Against Excessive Protein Intake

[Vinny]

In rats.

 

[Kartoffel]

In rats.

A very intelligent and useful reply. Thanks.

We are saying the same thing man.
20% of calories from protein is a lot. I referenced .6g/lb - .8g/lb, and stipulated closer to .6g/lb. I'm 175- 180lbs at 6'2", around 10% bodyfat, maybe even less (i've been losing weight inadvertently recently). Thats about 108g/ day to 144g/ day of protein which is 432 - 576 kcal per day of protein. On a 3000- 3500kcal diet which is around what I've been eating, thats about 12% to 19% calories as protein. I stay closer to 0.6g/lb, eating around 12oz of cooked animal protein per day. Plus, On cronometer a portion of my protein is met via the fruit I eat as well.

Also, see here, from the post you quoted above:



And also, my point about it being hard to cause damage to liver and the kidneys with protein was in reference to actually metabolizing the protein directly. Ritchie's post implied that you could eat enough protein such that the metabolism of that protein by the liver and the kidneys would actually be toxic. My point was that you would have to go out of your way to actually do this. Then I brought up the quote above, that the issue with excess protein isnt that too much will cause metabolic issues itself but too much may cause toxic metabolites from gut bacteria once it escapes digestion.

I would say overall you and I actually agree. We need optimal protein, not too much, not too little. After all we are apes that evolved to eat some meat/ fat.

EDIT: One important thing to stipulate, I think would be that when looking at amount of protein, perhaps lean mass should be taken into consideration. If you have a 300lb person who is morbidly obese, perhaps the reference guideline I discussed might be too much. Also, perhaps in a very malnourished/ thin individual that protein requirement may be too low. This is mostly an issue of using weight as a reference point for which to target the guideline to but overall I think the picture is relatively clear, especially since the context of the reference guideline is as a baseline and to adjust as needed.

Yes, I think we agree, although I think that you certainly underestimate the magnitude of your protein calculations. I think it is not as useful to think about protein intake in relation to caloric intake as it is to look at total intake and intake in relation to lean body mass. Average protein intake is between 50-80g for most men and women in most countries, with 12-14% being the average % of calories. So, you are eating considerably more than the average person. I know no "normal" person not interested in nutrition or weight lifting that eats 340g of meat per day. Most people eat around 120g of meat per day, and some other animal protein like dairy. In my opinion, your meat/protein consumption would significantly increase the likelihood of disease for a normal person.

 

[Ritchie]

although I think that you certainly underestimate the magnitude of your protein calculations. I think it is not as useful to think about protein intake in relation to caloric intake as it is to look at total intake and intake in relation to lean body mass. Average protein intake is between 50-80g for most men and women in most countries, with 12-14% being the average % of calories. So, you are eating considerably more than the average person.

Yes this was what I was attempting to get across @CLASH .. In reference to the thread topic and the study posted by the OP, the argument is that the protein intake you and many others are consuming is significantly higher than would be possibly indicated. I understand there have been theories put forward advocating consuming 0.6g/lb to 0.8g/lb but that may be significantly higher than desirable if this study and others like it is anything to go off. Further, another point is that it is very easy to blow protein levels right up without realising it if eating a high meat/dairy/eggs etc diet which many do. It's an interesting topic as protein is almost like a holy grail in western culture, curiously animal agriculture interests like the meat, egg and dairy industries have played a big role in perpetuating that idea.

 

[Ritchie]

instead, you could just use SCI-HUB to access all research papers for free...
link - sci-hub.tw

That site has saved me at least 100k+ (in whatever your local currency is)
I can't believe that ANYONE still pays to access research papers.

Thanks for the tip, very much appreciated was able to access the full study.

 

[Homo Consumericus]

Jordan Feigenbaun, MD, founder of Barbell Medicine and accomplished powerlifter with a track record of making tens of thousands of clients big and strong, says that the various (inter)national athletics associations recommend between 1.6 and 3.1 gram of protein per kilogram of bodyweight: 38:24-- .

Are there benefits to higher protein diets for the less active? Paul Mason, MD, says, while calcium and vitamin D supplementation slowed bone mineral loss, the group with the highest protein intake (unfortunately not quantified, but he later says one should get at least double the recommended amount since that was calculated based on growth facilitation only, not including the many other functions of protein) reversed loss of bone mineral density in treatment resistant post-menopausal women and 65+ year old men (as he explains, bones are protein structures + minerals): 57:34-- .

Concerning the 50-80 grams of protein per day someone mentioned, that is what I eat in one meal 4x per day every day for the last 9-10 years, with training frequency and intensity determining how much within that range is appropriate. It's the only reason I haven't been an emaciated ectomorph at my height for a while. High carb, low protein, low fat raises metabolism and leads to weight loss (muscle and fat). High fat, low protein, low carb increases stress/catecholamines and also leads to weight loss (muscle and fat). High carb, high fat, low protein leads to >20% bodyfat (obesity).

Maybe 20 grams per meal works for dwarves like Jeff Nipples. I ate more than that when I was 11.

Protein is most likely macronutrient to build muscle. Protein is least likely macronutrient to lead to fat gain.

"Muscles are themselves a hormone source. They can produce testosterone instead of cortisol when you're doing these resistance exercises. So the muscle building is protecting your heart and brain as well as building up the reserves of tissue that are part of your resistance against stress ()." Perhaps extra muscle is the reason why some of us can operate without all the exogenous hormones many here require to function.

Edit: Bonus benefits
- More protein keeps you warmer in winter so you don't have to dress like an astronaut when you leave the house (doesn't impress the girl next door; Wim Hof does impress her; be like the Iceman).
- Steak is tough. More protein means more chewing, which means finally realizing those jaw gains all the manlets drool about online.

 

[CLASH]

A very intelligent and useful reply. Thanks.



Yes, I think we agree, although I think that you certainly underestimate the magnitude of your protein calculations. I think it is not as useful to think about protein intake in relation to caloric intake as it is to look at total intake and intake in relation to lean body mass. Average protein intake is between 50-80g for most men and women in most countries, with 12-14% being the average % of calories. So, you are eating considerably more than the average person. I know no "normal" person not interested in nutrition or weight lifting that eats 340g of meat per day. Most people eat around 120g of meat per day, and some other animal protein like dairy. In my opinion, your meat/protein consumption would significantly increase the likelihood of disease for a normal person.

Lol read my post man, the one you quoted, I said looking at lean body mass would be the ideal. I only talked about percentage of calories because you mentioned the 20% benchmark.

I'm also much taller than the average person and have way more muscle mass @6'2" 180lbs 10% bodyfat. If you scaled to my situation, and read my previous post I think you'd find the recommendation fits in your guideline.

 

[CLASH]

Yes this was what I was attempting to get across @CLASH .. In reference to the thread topic and the study posted by the OP, the argument is that the protein intake you and many others are consuming is significantly higher than would be possibly indicated. I understand there have been theories put forward advocating consuming 0.6g/lb to 0.8g/lb but that may be significantly higher than desirable if this study and others like it is anything to go off. Further, another point is that it is very easy to blow protein levels right up without realising it if eating a high meat/dairy/eggs etc diet which many do. It's an interesting topic as protein is almost like a holy grail in western culture, curiously animal agriculture interests like the meat, egg and dairy industries have played a big role in perpetuating that idea.

Based on the graph of this study its saying between 20-30g of protein in one meal maximizes protein synthesis before going into protein oxidation. This is around 3oz of a cooked meat/ fish/ fowl protein in a single meal. If I have 3-4 meals a day like this, thats about 75-120g of protein a day, which falls in the range I discussed.

There are more industries pushing veganism/ vegetarianism than pushing for animal product consumption lol. Most industries pushing high protein consumption are pushing for supplements like powders and isolates, not steaks and shrimp. The dairy industry, as far as I'm aware, usually plays up bone health in its marketing and research not neccesarily protein.

 

[Jennifer]

But I do notice that I get foamy urine sometimes, which may be an indication of too much protein at once.

I've been peeing foamy urine for about three years. Still tricky to find connection with a certain nutrient offender, but the last one I suspect is animal (muscle meat) protein.
The main one in my list is milk/dairy, and the next one to it I`d put wheat/starch.
If I get lucky to root it out, I`ll post, but there is very noticeable reduction in foam after completely ditching milk/dairy. Hope to be on the right path.

By foamy, do you guys mean actual white foam or bubbles? It's my understanding that the former is protein and the latter is gas.

I stay closer to 0.6g/lb, eating around 12oz of cooked animal protein per day. Plus, On cronometer a portion of my protein is met via the fruit I eat as well.

I'm also much taller than the average person and have way more muscle mass @6'2" 180lbs 10% bodyfat. If you scaled to my situation, and read my previous post I think you'd find the recommendation fits in your guideline.

This is why I have such a hard time believing these studies are the rule. You're almost twice my size and I eat the same amount of animal protein as you and feel my best when I have around 6oz in a sitting with lots of carbs. I'd love to be able to eat less of it because I hate killing animals but now whenever I try dropping the protein, I struggle to breath.

 

[CLASH]

By foamy, do you guys mean actual white foam or bubbles? It's my understanding that the former is protein and the latter is gas.


This is why I have such a hard time believing these studies are the rule. You're almost twice my size and I eat the same amount of animal protein as you and feel my best when I have around 6oz in a sitting with lots of carbs. I'd love to be able to eat less of it because I hate killing animals but now whenever I try dropping the protein, I struggle to breath.

They arent the rule, they are just an updated guideline :)

Peoples contexts will change things, of course, I'm just interested in finding a general baseline point from which to bridge from.

 

[Vinny]

By foamy, do you guys mean actual white foam or bubbles?

In my case, in the worst occasions, it is a very thick, snowy white, lair of foam that, if I dont flush it down (but I do flush my toilet, trust me) would sit on the top for days.
It looks as horrible as it sounds....

 

[Vinny]

Jordan Feigenbaun, MD, founder of Barbell Medicine and accomplished powerlifter with a track record of making tens of thousands of clients big and strong, says that the various (inter)national athletics associations recommend between 1.6 and 3.1 gram of protein per kilogram of bodyweight: 38:24-- .

Are there benefits to higher protein diets for the less active? Paul Mason, MD, says, while calcium and vitamin D supplementation slowed bone mineral loss, the group with the highest protein intake (unfortunately not quantified, but he later says one should get at least double the recommended amount since that was calculated based on growth facilitation only, not including the many other functions of protein) reversed loss of bone mineral density in treatment resistant post-menopausal women and 65+ year old men (as he explains, bones are protein structures + minerals): 57:34-- .

Concerning the 50-80 grams of protein per day someone mentioned, that is what I eat in one meal 4x per day every day for the last 9-10 years, with training frequency and intensity determining how much within that range is appropriate. It's the only reason I haven't been an emaciated ectomorph at my height for a while. High carb, low protein, low fat raises metabolism and leads to weight loss (muscle and fat). High fat, low protein, low carb increases stress/catecholamines and also leads to weight loss (muscle and fat). High carb, high fat, low protein leads to >20% bodyfat (obesity).

Maybe 20 grams per meal works for dwarves like Jeff Nipples. I ate more than that when I was 11.

Protein is most likely macronutrient to build muscle. Protein is least likely macronutrient to lead to fat gain.

"Muscles are themselves a hormone source. They can produce testosterone instead of cortisol when you're doing these resistance exercises. So the muscle building is protecting your heart and brain as well as building up the reserves of tissue that are part of your resistance against stress ()." Perhaps extra muscle is the reason why some of us can operate without all the exogenous hormones many here require to function.

Edit: Bonus benefits
- More protein keeps you warmer in winter so you don't have to dress like an astronaut when you leave the house (doesn't impress the girl next door; Wim Hof does impress her; be like the Iceman).
- Steak is tough. More protein means more chewing, which means finally realizing those jaw gains all the manlets drool about online.

 

[Ritchie]

Based on the graph of this study its saying between 20-30g of protein in one meal maximizes protein synthesis before going into protein oxidation. This is around 3oz of a cooked meat/ fish/ fowl protein in a single meal. If I have 3-4 meals a day like this, thats about 75-120g of protein a day, which falls in the range I discussed.

There are more industries pushing veganism/ vegetarianism than pushing for animal product consumption lol. Most industries pushing high protein consumption are pushing for supplements like powders and isolates, not steaks and shrimp. The dairy industry, as far as I'm aware, usually plays up bone health in its marketing and research not neccesarily protein.

I always find it funny when people say stuff like that, as in the power of the vegan/vegetarian industry and their “agenda”. I mean there’s no big broccoli or big lentil lol and I’m assuming you’re not referring to the sugar industry.. companies like beyond meat are so recent and clearly haven’t had the power or influence to shift cultural and health body regulations and recommendations and haven’t gotten in bed with government bodies etc like the animal agriculture industry has.. I think it’s a bit of cognitive dissonance to ignore the known and established fact that the meat, egg and dairy industries have been doing their thing influencing research, official government body recommendations and health consumption promo pieces for decades and still do. This is known, particularly with respect to requirements for protein intake.

in regard to protein intake and in the context of the particular study of this thread, perhaps read it and see what they are saying. They are suggesting that intake above 70 gms a day is problematic for most people. Being active one probably needs a little more but based on that research there doesn’t seem much room to move before coming across issues of disease etc..

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

It provides free access to ALL existing research documents
afaik, the site uses active researcher credentials/keys, donated by forward thinking researchers, allowing anyone to access anything. bye-bye paywalls.

That's awesome!

I've been peeing foamy urine for about three years. Still tricky to find connection with a certain nutrient offender, but the last one I suspect is animal (muscle meat) protein.
The main one in my list is milk/dairy, and the next one to it I`d put wheat/starch.
If I get lucky to root it out, I`ll post, but there is very noticeable reduction in foam after completely ditching milk/dairy. Hope to be on the right path.

That sucks. I ditched starch too a while ago, and I feel better for sure.

Ditch dairy for a couple of weeks and see how it goes. Best wishes.

Jordan Feigenbaun, MD, founder of Barbell Medicine and accomplished powerlifter with a track record of making tens of thousands of clients big and strong, says that the various (inter)national athletics associations recommend between 1.6 and 3.1 gram of protein per kilogram of bodyweight: 38:24-- .

Are there benefits to higher protein diets for the less active? Paul Mason, MD, says, while calcium and vitamin D supplementation slowed bone mineral loss, the group with the highest protein intake (unfortunately not quantified, but he later says one should get at least double the recommended amount since that was calculated based on growth facilitation only, not including the many other functions of protein) reversed loss of bone mineral density in treatment resistant post-menopausal women and 65+ year old men (as he explains, bones are protein structures + minerals): 57:34-- .

Concerning the 50-80 grams of protein per day someone mentioned, that is what I eat in one meal 4x per day every day for the last 9-10 years, with training frequency and intensity determining how much within that range is appropriate. It's the only reason I haven't been an emaciated ectomorph at my height for a while. High carb, low protein, low fat raises metabolism and leads to weight loss (muscle and fat). High fat, low protein, low carb increases stress/catecholamines and also leads to weight loss (muscle and fat). High carb, high fat, low protein leads to >20% bodyfat (obesity).

Maybe 20 grams per meal works for dwarves like Jeff Nipples. I ate more than that when I was 11.

Protein is most likely macronutrient to build muscle. Protein is least likely macronutrient to lead to fat gain.

"Muscles are themselves a hormone source. They can produce testosterone instead of cortisol when you're doing these resistance exercises. So the muscle building is protecting your heart and brain as well as building up the reserves of tissue that are part of your resistance against stress ()." Perhaps extra muscle is the reason why some of us can operate without all the exogenous hormones many here require to function.

Edit: Bonus benefits
- More protein keeps you warmer in winter so you don't have to dress like an astronaut when you leave the house (doesn't impress the girl next door; Wim Hof does impress her; be like the Iceman).
- Steak is tough. More protein means more chewing, which means finally realizing those jaw gains all the manlets drool about online.

Nice post indeed! Ties in nicely with the video CLASH posted where the researcher talked about how only 10% of the protein ingested ends up in the muscles. The rest is utilized by other parts of the body( digestive track, bones, etc.)

By foamy, do you guys mean actual white foam or bubbles? It's my understanding that the former is protein and the latter is gas.

For me,I think it's more like bubbles, because if the urine doesn't hit the toilet water, it doesn't produce any foam. What type of gas could I have in my urine?

 

[CLASH]

I always find it funny when people say stuff like that, as in the power of the vegan/vegetarian industry and their “agenda”. I mean there’s no big broccoli or big lentil lol and I’m assuming you’re not referring to the sugar industry.. companies like beyond meat are so recent and clearly haven’t had the power or influence to shift cultural and health body regulations and recommendations and haven’t gotten in bed with government bodies etc like the animal agriculture industry has.. I think it’s a bit of cognitive dissonance to ignore the known and established fact that the meat, egg and dairy industries have been doing their thing influencing research, official government body recommendations and health consumption promo pieces for decades and still do. This is known, particularly with respect to requirements for protein intake.

in regard to protein intake and in the context of the particular study of this thread, perhaps read it and see what they are saying. They are suggesting that intake above 70 gms a day is problematic for most people. Being active one probably needs a little more but based on that research there doesn’t seem much room to move before coming across issues of disease etc..

Lol I find it funny that you find it funny. Its clearly not broccoli or lentils, its grains, soy, vegetable oils etc. I would venture to guess that push is larger than the meat or dairy industry, especially considering the dietary guidelines of the US for the past century or so....

Almost every regulating health body and much research pushes a plant based mediteranean diet high in PUFA and MUFA, fiber, nuts, seeds, whole grains and vegetables. This push is quite obvious. Red meat and eggs is to be avoided and if protein is taken in, it is to be from vegetarian sources lean white meat and/ or low fat dairy. I guarantee you most people know this trope very well. The push for red meat being healthy is mostly new to this century. Ditto for eggs and dairy fat. Since the 1970's there was a clear market against these things and there are many statistics to show this. If I'm not mistaken red meat, dairy, and egg consumption has dropped drastically in the US. Only certain fringe health groups support those foods.

Haha nope no cognitive dissonance here, especially considering the fact that I didnt ignore those industries influence, just didnt agree with your characterization of those particular industries messages. I dont doubt that theres industries pushing these things, I just thing the push for vegetarian/ vegan is quite obviously more prevalent. Just to make this conversation fair, since you are implying a bias on my end, you are a vegan currently are you not?

Lol Kind of hard to go through and refute an entire review. I find the idea that protein causes type 2 diabetes to be highly unlikely. I think we know at this point whats causing type 2 diabetes: PUFA, endotoxin etc. The mechanism discussed in the article are theories like "too much insulin from amino acid stimulation lowering the amount of insulin receptors via downregulation". I dont think you'd find much support on this forum for that theory. Furthermore many of the studies they quoted have experimental groups with protein at a percentage of calories higher than 20%. We already discussed here that, thats not what is being recommended. Regardless of this, there are
many known high protein eaters (i.e many pro bodybuilders, carnivores, paleo people), who have been eating high quantities of protein for years without the development of diabetes, obesity or heart disease. There are also high protein eating populations that dont support this theory either such as the Inuit and other hunter populations.

I havent seen any convincing evidence linking the protein intake I discussed with any disease or even kidney or liver issues like you mentioned. The only valid points brought up so far have been by @Kartoffel
with the possible issue of protein escaping digestion and causing toxic metabolites in the colon and perhaps the benefit of restricting certain amino acids for longevity (as @ExCarniv pointed out we are limited to rat studies on this tho and the side effects of limiting protein in the rat studies dont seem worth the life extension properties if they translate over to humans in my opinion).

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Lol I find it funny that you find it funny. Its clearly not broccoli or lentils, its grains, soy, vegetable oils etc. I would venture to guess that push is larger than the meat or dairy industry, especially considering the dietary guidelines of the US for the past century or so....

Almost every regulating health body and much research pushes a plant based mediteranean diet high in PUFA and MUFA, fiber, nuts, seeds, whole grains and vegetables. This push is quite obvious. Red meat and eggs is to be avoided and if protein is taken in, it is to be from vegetarian sources lean white meat and/ or low fat dairy. I guarantee you most people know this trope very well. The push for red meat being healthy is mostly new to this century. Ditto for eggs and dairy fat. Since the 1970's there was a clear market against these things and there are many statistics to show this. If I'm not mistaken red meat, dairy, and egg consumption has dropped drastically in the US. Only certain fringe health groups support those foods.

Haha nope no cognitive dissonance here, especially considering the fact that I didnt ignore those industries influence, just didnt agree with your characterization of those particular industries messages. I dont doubt that theres industries pushing these things, I just thing the push for vegetarian/ vegan is quite obviously more prevalent. Just to make this conversation fair, since you are implying a bias on my end, you are a vegan currently are you not?

Lol Kind of hard to go through and refute an entire review. I find the idea that protein causes type 2 diabetes to be highly unlikely. I think we know at this point whats causing type 2 diabetes: PUFA, endotoxin etc. The mechanism discussed in the article are theories like "too much insulin from amino acid stimulation lowering the amount of insulin receptors via downregulation". I dont think you'd find much support on this forum for that theory. Furthermore many of the studies they quoted have experimental groups with protein at a percentage of calories higher than 20%. We already discussed here that, thats not what is being recommended. Regardless of this, there are
many known high protein eaters (i.e many pro bodybuilders, carnivores, paleo people), who have been eating high quantities of protein for years without the development of diabetes, obesity or heart disease. There are also high protein eating populations that dont support this theory either such as the Inuit and other hunter populations.

I havent seen any convincing evidence linking the protein intake I discussed with any disease or even kidney or liver issues like you mentioned. The only valid points brought up so far have been by @Kartoffel
with the possible issue of protein escaping digestion and causing toxic metabolites in the colon and perhaps the benefit of restricting certain amino acids for longevity (as @ExCarniv pointed out we are limited to rat studies on this tho and the side effects of limiting protein in the rat studies dont seem worth the life extension properties if they translate over to humans in my opinion).

Exactly. And the push for meat consumption mostly comes from those corporations who sell grain- fed meat. Cargill, JBS, etc. They use estrogenic substances in the cows to increase water content and profit more. Of course these entities shouldn't be trusted either. They're only after profit, and care not about human health. Meat that is raised naturally is always the better alternative.

 

[Zigzag]

This entire research paper reads as: "Protein bad, diabetes". Ridiculous I'd say.

 

[ExCarniv]

The wheat agenda pushing "healthy whole grains" is way bigger than meat industry, plus is cheaper to produce 1000kg of wheat than 1kg of meat.

If general population is eating 50g of protein per day and obesity, diabetes and cancer rates are raising, I rest my case.
Blaming protein is idiotic at this point.

 

[Amazoniac]

I think Amazoniac pointed out that consuming more protein than the muscles need may have some other beneficial effects, since it's not only the muscles that use protein.

What bothers in that graph is that the amino acid utilization starts to get wasteful when muscle protein synthesis is maximized, it wouldn't make sense for this to occur if needs for purposes other than muscle synthesis weren't met before reaching such point.

This is why I have such a hard time believing these studies are the rule. You're almost twice my size and I eat the same amount of animal protein as you and feel my best when I have around 6oz in a sitting with lots of carbs. I'd love to be able to eat less of it because I hate killing animals but now whenever I try dropping the protein, I struggle to breath.

Jennifer, these are human experiments. What are the equivalences?

There can also be other factors at play to influence how much it takes to maximize it, not necessarily pathological although it's a good sign to be able to extract more out of less. An example would be inefficient adsorption in an olderly requiring a greater consumption if the goal was to maximize the muscle synthesis.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

What bothers in that graph is that the amino acid utilization starts to get wasteful when muscle protein synthesis is maximized, it wouldn't make sense for this to occur if needs for purposes other than muscle synthesis weren't met before reaching such point.

Yeah, I noticed that. But I read one study saying that, for example, the liver uses amino-acids as one of its energy sources, so perhaps there is a certain amount of protein oxidation that is desirable, and which is not achieved with low intakes of protein. And considering that haidut posted a study showing that a high protein diet can heal the liver, maybe the increased protein oxidation is worth it.

 

[Kartoffel]

Jordan Feigenbaun, MD, founder of Barbell Medicine and accomplished powerlifter with a track record of making tens of thousands of clients big and strong, says that the various (inter)national athletics associations recommend between 1.6 and 3.1 gram of protein per kilogram of bodyweight: 38:24-- .

Are there benefits to higher protein diets for the less active? Paul Mason, MD, says, while calcium and vitamin D supplementation slowed bone mineral loss, the group with the highest protein intake (unfortunately not quantified, but he later says one should get at least double the recommended amount since that was calculated based on growth facilitation only, not including the many other functions of protein) reversed loss of bone mineral density in treatment resistant post-menopausal women and 65+ year old men (as he explains, bones are protein structures + minerals): 57:34-- .

Concerning the 50-80 grams of protein per day someone mentioned, that is what I eat in one meal 4x per day every day for the last 9-10 years, with training frequency and intensity determining how much within that range is appropriate. It's the only reason I haven't been an emaciated ectomorph at my height for a while. High carb, low protein, low fat raises metabolism and leads to weight loss (muscle and fat). High fat, low protein, low carb increases stress/catecholamines and also leads to weight loss (muscle and fat). High carb, high fat, low protein leads to >20% bodyfat (obesity).

Maybe 20 grams per meal works for dwarves like Jeff Nipples. I ate more than that when I was 11.

Protein is most likely macronutrient to build muscle. Protein is least likely macronutrient to lead to fat gain.

"Muscles are themselves a hormone source. They can produce testosterone instead of cortisol when you're doing these resistance exercises. So the muscle building is protecting your heart and brain as well as building up the reserves of tissue that are part of your resistance against stress ()." Perhaps extra muscle is the reason why some of us can operate without all the exogenous hormones many here require to function.

The guy looks like the typical body builder/compulsive protein eater - very hairy arms, probably accompanied by hair loss (hence the cap).

Maybe 20 grams per meal works for dwarves like Jeff Nipples. I ate more than that when I was 11.

20 grams per meal, 4x daily when you were 11? Was your father a butcher or sausage manufacturer?

- More protein keeps you warmer in winter so you don't have to dress like an astronaut when you leave the house (doesn't impress the girl next door; Wim Hof does impress her; be like the Iceman).

Carbohydrate and fat oxidation keep you warm, not protein.

- Steak is tough. More protein means more chewing, which means finally realizing those jaw gains all the manlets drool about online.

Bro Science at its' best.