A Question For University Students And Graduates

[Herbie]

Ive been contemplating studying at a university in Australia in the sciences, interests in geology, biology, chemistry. Ive procrastinated for a few years since becoming aware of the perhaps political situation and dogma that is taught in these institutions. Ive observed Ray's journey and he seemed to dodge and weave his way through avoiding the dogma. I suspect its possibly worse at this time, For the people who have completed a degree or currently studying, have you experienced this yourself?

 

[meatbag]

.

 

[James_001]

I won't go to university if you want to learn, going in order to make more money or get a specific job is a good idea though.

 

[DaveFoster]

I won't go to university if you want to learn, going in order to make more money or get a specific job is a good idea though.

Yeah, this.

Unless you want to specialize in gender studies and the underlying patriarchy in Western civilization.

 

[keith]

I'm in the u.s. and graduated 20 years ago, and also had a much different focus (political science), so not sure how it relates to your situation, but I found myself exposed to many different thoughts and ideas I probably wouldn't have been exposed to otherwise, and consider it to had been a great and formative experience in my life. I can't guess as to whether it would be the same for you.

Regarding dogma and dissenting ideas, I think you may find it necessary to immerse yourself in the dogma in order to be able to effectively understand and promote alternate explanations. It generally helps to have a thorough understanding of the main stream ideas, strengths and weaknesses, if you are going to critique them. I wouldn't necessarily go into university with the plan to revolutionize your field before you have even learned it properly, but you aren't likely to get a job in any of those fields or the ability to offer dissenting opinions that will be taken seriously, if you don't get the degree first.

Good luck in your decision.

 

[whodathunkit]

I graduated 10 years ago but the extreme social mission creep and inculcation of dogma as opposed to the discovery and transmission of real unbiased knowledge was already underway. I've worked in higher ed since, and the groupthink is much worse now than it used to be.

My advice: suck it up and get your piece of paper. Taking a stand with a dogmatic and biased professor is usually not worth getting failed over, so learn as much as you can about what you want to learn about while still shoveling what the biased want to hear back at them. The real satisfaction comes from making the biased and ignorant think they're guiding you into their mindset, when in reality you're actually learning things they want you never to know. Cover your eyes, ears, and mouth and go "la-la-la-la" when the idiocy gets too intense or weird. Once you get your creds you can work on changing things from inside your field, if that's what you so choose.

Note I said taking a stand *usually* isn't worth it. Sometimes it is. To paraphrase the sublime Winston Churchill, there are some things up with which we cannot put. But only you can be the judge of that in any given situation. Despite being largely out of sych perspective-wise with almost everyone around me for 8 years of being a student, I only felt pushed to the wall once, and it turned out okay. Surprisingly, the guy at least respected me for standing up to him even if it was apparent he still scorned my perspective. It was a good experience for me because he turned out to be not quite the douche I had him pegged for. It reminded me that despite the current ugly trend to "other" those who don't think like us, we're all still just humans who are much more alike than we are different.

And most importantly, remember that even stopped clocks are right twice a day so pretty much everyone has something teach you.

Look for true knowledge and true scholarship and appreciate it when you come across it. Get close to it and learn from it. It's still out there, even if it might be hiding like you. You might even stumble across a young Ray Peat during your journey through academia. :)

If you really want it, just get your piece of paper. It's more useful to have than not. And once you have it you can in large measure free yourself if you want to.

Also this:

Regarding dogma and dissenting ideas, I think you may find it necessary to immerse yourself in the dogma in order to be able to effectively understand and promote alternate explanations. It generally helps to have a thorough understanding of the main stream ideas, strengths and weaknesses, if you are going to critique them. I wouldn't necessarily go into university with the plan to revolutionize your field before you have even learned it properly, but you aren't likely to get a job in any of those fields or the ability to offer dissenting opinions that will be taken seriously, if you don't get the degree first.

 

[jitsmonkey]

There is virtually nothing you could want to learn that requires a university education.
This was not always true but certainly is now.

The only reasons to attend university are ...

a) you want a vocation that requires licensure/credentialing
b) you want the social/cultural experience you'd get at your chosen university.

barring one of these two reasons I'd spend your time and resources elsewhere
doing, following, pursuing whatever you find most inspiring, enjoyable, etc...

best of luck to you whatever you decide

 

[tyw]

I went to UniMelb for a year (2010). Quit, and have been working as a software development ever since

....

 

[keith]

a) you want a vocation that requires licensure/credentialing

I'm pretty sure a career in geology, biology and chemistry would all fall into this category.

While I agree that there are a LOT of inherent weaknesses in the structured educational systems present at most universities, I think there are also some benefits to being immersed in a program of study in a particular field, spending significant amounts of time with other people who share the same intellectual interests, etc, that are difficult or impossible to recreate through your own course of self-study. That being said, there are certainly some people who have been extremely successful and entirely or mostly self-taught. I guess it depends on your personality, motivations, abilities, resources, etc. In this particular case, though, the specialties being considered would generally require a university degree.

Keeping an open mind about new and different ideas, especially those that are opposed to one's existing views is key in any case. No one ever discovered something new by sticking with the same old ideas. I'm a firm believer that you can learn anywhere from anyone if you keep an open mind.

Like whodathunkit wrote:

And most importantly, remember that even stopped clocks are right twice a day so pretty much everyone has something teach you.

Look for true knowledge and true scholarship and appreciate it when you come across it. Get close to it and learn from it. It's still out there, even if it might be hiding like you. You might even stumble across a young Ray Peat during your journey through academia. :)

 

[whodathunkit]

There is virtually nothing you could want to learn that requires a university education.
This was not always true but certainly is now.

The only reasons to attend university are ...
a) you want a vocation that requires licensure/credentialing

I agree TOTALLY about the actual learning. But IME most vocations now want credentials. These days, only a very few professions (like software development) will hire the talented and driven who lack credentials over even the most dreary no-talent hack sporting a degree. That's the only reason I went to college. Not because I'm a no talent hack (at least, I hope I'm not ), but because I couldn't do any of the jobs that appealed to me without the education.

 

[jitsmonkey]

I'm pretty sure a career in geology, biology and chemistry would all fall into this category.

"interests in geology, biology, chemistry" aren't necessarily the same as a "career" in geology, biology, chemistry.

 

[keith]

"interests in geology, biology, chemistry" aren't necessarily the same as a "career" in geology, biology, chemistry.

Touché

 

[Herbie]

I'm in the US so I have no idea what Aussie university is like. As a biology major I have definitely learned some interesting stuff and I feel like it maybe made it easier for me to digest all Ray's work and to read scientific publications on my own. Honestly if this is why you want to go-to feel like you can approach assimilating research for your own use- you can learn most of the stuff you need online or on khan academy. If classes aren't expensive in AUS like in US then it might be worth it if you have a hard time self motivating and feel more comfortable in a classroom than working on your own.

About dogma, yes it's definitely there. There will be whole lectures on the amazing properties of nitric oxide, the central dogma of biology (lol), etc. There is some interesting stuff that you learn too though. You can probably email the professor of a class your're interested in to get a syllabus to find out what kind of subjects will be covered.

I assume the university's here are very similar except younger, we are heavily influenced by America and the UK. Im very motivated and stimulated by reading and thought that going to university would broaden my horizons and gain greater access to resources and information. Its $9000 per year for an undergrad degree in science at this time.

It would be interesting to here a lecture like that to here it straight from the horses mouth. my girlfriend recently graduated in dietetics and she had a lecturer who was a big proponent of fish oil being anti inflammatory and had published papers on the subject.

 

[Herbie]

I won't go to university if you want to learn, going in order to make more money or get a specific job is a good idea though.

I'm in the u.s. and graduated 20 years ago, and also had a much different focus (political science), so not sure how it relates to your situation, but I found myself exposed to many different thoughts and ideas I probably wouldn't have been exposed to otherwise, and consider it to had been a great and formative experience in my life. I can't guess as to whether it would be the same for you.

Regarding dogma and dissenting ideas, I think you may find it necessary to immerse yourself in the dogma in order to be able to effectively understand and promote alternate explanations. It generally helps to have a thorough understanding of the main stream ideas, strengths and weaknesses, if you are going to critique them. I wouldn't necessarily go into university with the plan to revolutionize your field before you have even learned it properly, but you aren't likely to get a job in any of those fields or the ability to offer dissenting opinions that will be taken seriously, if you don't get the degree first.

Good luck in your decision.

I agree, I like appreciate your perspective, I think these experiences are necessary to learn and come to new ways of thinking and new perspectives.

 

[Herbie]

I graduated 10 years ago but the extreme social mission creep and inculcation of dogma as opposed to the discovery and transmission of real unbiased knowledge was already underway. I've worked in higher ed since, and the groupthink is much worse now than it used to be.

My advice: suck it up and get your piece of paper. Taking a stand with a dogmatic and biased professor is usually not worth getting failed over, so learn as much as you can about what you want to learn about while still shoveling what the biased want to hear back at them. The real satisfaction comes from making the biased and ignorant think they're guiding you into their mindset, when in reality you're actually learning things they want you never to know. Cover your eyes, ears, and mouth and go "la-la-la-la" when the idiocy gets too intense or weird. Once you get your creds you can work on changing things from inside your field, if that's what you so choose.

Note I said taking a stand *usually* isn't worth it. Sometimes it is. To paraphrase the sublime Winston Churchill, there are some things up with which we cannot put. But only you can be the judge of that in any given situation. Despite being largely out of sych perspective-wise with almost everyone around me for 8 years of being a student, I only felt pushed to the wall once, and it turned out okay. Surprisingly, the guy at least respected me for standing up to him even if it was apparent he still scorned my perspective. It was a good experience for me because he turned out to be not quite the douche I had him pegged for. It reminded me that despite the current ugly trend to "other" those who don't think like us, we're all still just humans who are much more alike than we are different.

And most importantly, remember that even stopped clocks are right twice a day so pretty much everyone has something teach you.

Look for true knowledge and true scholarship and appreciate it when you come across it. Get close to it and learn from it. It's still out there, even if it might be hiding like you. You might even stumble across a young Ray Peat during your journey through academia. :)

If you really want it, just get your piece of paper. It's more useful to have than not. And once you have it you can in large measure free yourself if you want to.

Also this:

I like your perspectives, I enjoyed reading this.

I agree, there would be nothing gained by ruffling people feathers and its much more enjoyable to remain graceful and keep opinions to oneself .

 

[Herbie]

I'm pretty sure a career in geology, biology and chemistry would all fall into this category.

While I agree that there are a LOT of inherent weaknesses in the structured educational systems present at most universities, I think there are also some benefits to being immersed in a program of study in a particular field, spending significant amounts of time with other people who share the same intellectual interests, etc, that are difficult or impossible to recreate through your own course of self-study. That being said, there are certainly some people who have been extremely successful and entirely or mostly self-taught. I guess it depends on your personality, motivations, abilities, resources, etc. In this particular case, though, the specialties being considered would generally require a university degree.

Keeping an open mind about new and different ideas, especially those that are opposed to one's existing views is key in any case. No one ever discovered something new by sticking with the same old ideas. I'm a firm believer that you can learn anywhere from anyone if you keep an open mind.

Like whodathunkit wrote:

Agreed and good things to consider, thank you.

 

[keith]

Agreed and good things to consider, thank you.

Good luck to you. I would encourage you to take some time and think it through, but sounds like you are already doing that, so you are well ahead of where I was at your age.

 

[Herbie]

Ive met people who know they want a job as a nurse or a psychologist, a podiatrist, a doctor or an engineer but I myself just don't know what id want to do or be. I'm not motivated to go to get a job per say, Im fascinated with life and stimulated and inspired by discovery and creativity.

 

[snowboard111]

If I was you, I wouldn't focus too much on the bad side of dogma and such. Sure, they are VERY present and inhibit a lot of novel thinking/research but they shouldn't stop you from going in an area of study that you are interested (I think it's very important). Dogma are only dangerous for people who are not aware or refuse to see it as what it is and it seems that it is not your case, so I wouldn't be too worried about it. Peat pursued biology even if he knew how some of the ideas and thinking about it were at best, misguided. I don't think you can fully grasp what's wrong with a theory if you don't understand it as much, if not more, than the proponent of it.

The reason why I emphasize the interested in is because if you are curious about a subject(s), it won't feel like a job you don't like while learning about it (curiosity and interest can easily make work feels like play). There's a lot of people who approach university as a pre-job application because most programs feel like it. The end path is very narrow and already trace for them. They will graduate and find a job in that field while not having resolve the root problem; they don't like it (myself included)... I graduated college two years ago with a combined degree in programs that at the time I knew we're not for me and completely dreadful and despite that I continue for the wrong reasons. After 18 months on the job, I was fed-up and quit. Now I'm back to square one... and it's not much of a good feeling but I know I'll figure something out

The world we live in is changing very rapidly and the speed at which it's changing is speeding up too... and I don't think the fields your mention can stay afloat a long time (it's obviously relative) before not making any sense at all. They are quite dynamic and wide in regard to the areas they can be applied. Anyways, that's just my two cents Go for it and try... Plus, in my opinion, being older and having perspective on these things will only help you in your learning process. Much more easier than being a sponge who has no idea what it's soak in.

 

[lvysaur]

Universities exist to drive agendas, and guard knowledge.