8 uncommon herbs that lower prolactin and restore dopaminergic neurotransmission

[Hans]

I must have missed that part about bromocriptine. Thank you so much - very interesting!

Do you think hordenine on it's own is worth a try? The herb itself seems difficult to find.

I have already ordered a Peony-Licorice extract as well.

Hordenine unfortunately has a short half life so you'll probably have to take it 4+ times a day. It can work well pre-workout, but not so much for lowering prolactin (because of short half-life).

 

[Hans]

Dr Peat has said recently,which I did not understand before, that thyroid supplementation lowers prolactin.

Thyroid can help to lower TRH and TSH, which increase PTH. Both PTH and TRH promote prolactin release. So optimizing thyroid is definitely very important.

 

[deliciousfruit]

Hordenine unfortunately has a short half life so you'll probably have to take it 4+ times a day. It can work well pre-workout, but not so much for lowering prolactin (because of short half-life).

Isn't hordenine the alkaloid responsible for Fructus Hordei Germinatus' prolactin lowering effect though? Specifically for bromocriptine non-responders?

 

[ecstatichamster]

Thyroid can help to lower TRH and TSH, which increase PTH. Both PTH and TRH promote prolactin release. So optimizing thyroid is definitely very important.

thanks @Hans

 

[ecstatichamster]

A high calcium diet and adequate vitamin D can also lower prolactin. I’m suspicious of using herbs to lower prolactin.

 

[Hans]

Isn't hordenine the alkaloid responsible for Fructus Hordei Germinatus' prolactin lowering effect though? Specifically for bromocriptine non-responders?

It's rarely ever only one compound that has all the benefits. Sure hordenine plays a (big) role, but the whole plant is often better.
This study found that hordenine (in horses) was present up to 24 hours, so perhaps it can be helpful in isolation:
"Total urinary concentrations of hordenine (free and conjugated) peaked at about 400 micrograms/ml, and then declined exponentially to background levels by 24 h after dosing."

 

[Hans]

A high calcium diet and adequate vitamin D can also lower prolactin. I’m suspicious of using herbs to lower prolactin.

Why is that? Don't you use metergoline?

 

[ecstatichamster]

Why is that? Don't you use metergoline?

yes, I have for about three years but I recently decided to stop for a similar reason. I don’t think taking an herb is any different than a medication. Which is what is behind your question I suppose. I think that it’s better to adjust prolactin levels with natural substances that are found in the body if you can. I think that material lien was probably causing me to be constipated and I didn’t realize it until recently. I think all of these things have side effects. I do take thyroid but I think it’s a natural substance and I get nothing but benefit out of it. And I don’t think it’s like an herbal it has side effects.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

Here's a hair loss drug that Peatarians could probably get behind! Bayer is working on a prolactin-receptor antibody drug for male pattern baldness which seems really promising so far:

Bayer Prolactin Receptor Antibody For Male And Female Pattern Hair Loss

This topic was covered a while back briefly as a piece of hope surrounding new entrants to the market however thought i would highlight some findings from the patent itself that gave me some fresh hope. The drug in question is Bayer's PRL receptor anti-body drug that specifically targets the...

www.hairlosstalk.com

It states that common agents such as bromocriptine and cabergoline are not effective because:

""The pituitary PRL secretion can be inhibited by use of bromocriptine and other dopamine receptor 2 agonists. These agents, however, do not suppress extrapituitary PRL synthesis that can compensate successfully for the inhibition of pituitary PRL synthesis leading to almost unimpaired PRLR-mediated signalling""

I wonder if any of these herbs are able to get around that issue and would be as useful for hair as the thing they're developing. Would be a long shot, but hey...

 

[deliciousfruit]

It's rarely ever only one compound that has all the benefits. Sure hordenine plays a (big) role, but the whole plant is often better.
This study found that hordenine (in horses) was present up to 24 hours, so perhaps it can be helpful in isolation:
"Total urinary concentrations of hordenine (free and conjugated) peaked at about 400 micrograms/ml, and then declined exponentially to background levels by 24 h after dosing."

Thanks a lot for your help Hans

 

[Hans]

Thanks a lot for your help Hans

My pleasure man.

 

[Hans]

yes, I have for about three years but I recently decided to stop for a similar reason. I don’t think taking an herb is any different than a medication. Which is what is behind your question I suppose. I think that it’s better to adjust prolactin levels with natural substances that are found in the body if you can. I think that material lien was probably causing me to be constipated and I didn’t realize it until recently. I think all of these things have side effects. I do take thyroid but I think it’s a natural substance and I get nothing but benefit out of it. And I don’t think it’s like an herbal it has side effects.

I agree with fixing problems with food is best, but sometimes lowering prolactin or inflammation or TSH rapidly with a supplement is better and can speed things up a lot. Metergoline is a synthetic drug that only activated the D2 receptor whereas many of these herbs actually upregulate TH and D2 expression. So it's much more than just agonizing this or antagonizing that.
And herbs have always been used throughout history. The trick is using the right one at the right time.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I agree with fixing problems with food is best, but sometimes lowering prolactin or inflammation or TSH rapidly with a supplement is better and can speed things up a lot. Metergoline is a synthetic drug that only activated the D2 receptor whereas many of these herbs actually upregulate TH and D2 expression. So it's much more than just agonizing this or antagonizing that.
And herbs have always been used throughout history. The trick is using the right one at the right time.

yes indeed. Makes sense. Thank you.

 

[deliciousfruit]

Hans, do you think up-regulating TH, DAT, an D2 is all there is to restoring dopaminergic neurotransmittion? I have PSSD and derealization/depersonalization, which I think are both caused by low dopamine, through a lot of deductive reasoning, and the fact that last year when I smoked tobacco, it was the only thing that helped BOTH. I only smoked for about a month, then stopped, and recently started again. This time, it doesn't improve either. I know certain things can inhibit dopamine release, such as 5-HT2C receptor, nitric oxide, prolactin, so I've tried smoking with cyproheptadine, various anti-neuronal nitric oxide substances, and according to my latest blood test, my prolactin is actually incredibly low (even though I have symptoms of high prolactin...). So nothing should be inhibiting the release of dopamine, yet I'm not feeling those same effects as before. Bromocriptine also didn't make me feel anything, other than tired and nauseous (I also tried selegiline, an MAO-B inhibitor recently and felt nothing). What do you think could be going on here? Something blocking the receptors? I am still going to try PGD and Fructus Hordei Germinatus!

P.S. Do you think it's safe to combine these herbs with bromocriptine? I know your article said a metabolite of licorice in PGD "unblocks" the D2 receptor (question is what blocks it) - maybe combining that with bromocriptine would allow it to activate the D2 receptor properly, if that's not already happening when I take the bromocriptine.

Thank you so much!

 

[Hans]

Hans, do you think up-regulating TH, DAT, an D2 is all there is to restoring dopaminergic neurotransmittion? I have PSSD and derealization/depersonalization, which I think are both caused by low dopamine, through a lot of deductive reasoning, and the fact that last year when I smoked tobacco, it was the only thing that helped BOTH. I only smoked for about a month, then stopped, and recently started again. This time, it doesn't improve either. I know certain things can inhibit dopamine release, such as 5-HT2C receptor, nitric oxide, prolactin, so I've tried smoking with cyproheptadine, various anti-neuronal nitric oxide substances, and according to my latest blood test, my prolactin is actually incredibly low (even though I have symptoms of high prolactin...). So nothing should be inhibiting the release of dopamine, yet I'm not feeling those same effects as before. Bromocriptine also didn't make me feel anything, other than tired and nauseous (I also tried selegiline, an MAO-B inhibitor recently and felt nothing). What do you think could be going on here? Something blocking the receptors? I am still going to try PGD and Fructus Hordei Germinatus!

Do you experience premature or delayed ejaculation?
In PSSD, most neurotransmitter functions are out of balance. So it includes serotonin, opioids, GABA, neurosteroids, the cannabinoid system, etc. So it's almost impossible to look at only one system and try to fix that. If you haven't responded to dopaminergics, then I think it might be best to pursue other pathways, such as serotonin, opioid and endocannabinoid, since those are involved in emotions, euphoria, etc.
Unless you still want to try something that actually upregulates dopamine receptors and TH, since that can help the dopaminergic system instead of only dopamine agonists.

 

[deliciousfruit]

Do you experience premature or delayed ejaculation?
In PSSD, most neurotransmitter functions are out of balance. So it includes serotonin, opioids, GABA, neurosteroids, the cannabinoid system, etc. So it's almost impossible to look at only one system and try to fix that. If you haven't responded to dopaminergics, then I think it might be best to pursue other pathways, such as serotonin, opioid and endocannabinoid, since those are involved in emotions, euphoria, etc.
Unless you still want to try something that actually upregulates dopamine receptors and TH, since that can help the dopaminergic system instead of only dopamine agonists.

Yes, I experience premature ejaculation.
I'm sort of lost on to what to try next though, tried naltrexone (and cyproheptadine) for opioids (naltexone had no effect, like almost everything I try lol - also tried opiates, which had no effect), and I've experimented lots with pregnenolone and progesterone in terms of neurosteroids and to a certain extent GABA... (also don't feel anything from those 2 steroids). Strangely enough though, when I first began taking cyproheptadine it mildy improved my PSSD, but I was never able to replicate that again after a few days of improvement, no matter the dose. I definitely have all the symptoms of very low dopamine though. Thanks for replying!

 

[Hans]

Yes, I experience premature ejaculation.
I'm sort of lost on to what to try next though, tried naltrexone (and cyproheptadine) for opioids (naltexone had no effect, like almost everything I try lol - also tried opiates, which had no effect), and I've experimented lots with pregnenolone and progesterone in terms of neurosteroids and to a certain extent GABA... (also don't feel anything from those 2 steroids). Strangely enough though, when I first began taking cyproheptadine it mildy improved my PSSD, but I was never able to replicate that again after a few days of improvement, no matter the dose. I definitely have all the symptoms of very low dopamine though. Thanks for replying!

5-HT1A activation stimulates ejaculation, so oversensitive 5-HT1A might cause premature ejaculation. Also, the sympathetic nervous system promotes ejaculation, so focusing on activating the parasympathetic system should help with erections, ejaculation and feeling.

 

[Gustav3Y]

5-HT1A activation stimulates ejaculation, so oversensitive 5-HT1A might cause premature ejaculation. Also, the sympathetic nervous system promotes ejaculation, so focusing on activating the parasympathetic system should help with erections, ejaculation and feeling.

It is quite interesting that 5-HT1A is claimed to work as "Facilitation of sex drive and arousal" but the I see the claim of "Inhibition of penile erection"
Interesting.

Interestingly Propranolol is an antagonist, I wonder 5-HT1A antagonism and Beta receptor antagonism is what makes some people up to a point have good erections. It seems in time will ruin erections.
I am just wondering.

 

[Hans]

It is quite interesting that 5-HT1A is claimed to work as "Facilitation of sex drive and arousal" but the I see the claim of "Inhibition of penile erection"
Interesting.

Interestingly Propranolol is an agonist, I wonder 5-HT1A antagonism and Beta receptor antagonism is what makes some people up to a point have good erections. It seems in time will run erections.
I am just wondering.

Yes, 5-HT1A agonist can actually reduce libido and erections, while causing premature ejaculation. Cypro, a 5-HT1A antagonist can help with that and is what people with PSSD often have success with.

 

[Gustav3Y]

I am sorry, I made a mistake saying Propranolol is an agonist for 5-HT1A, it is an antagonist, I have edited my post about that once I read it again.