Owen B

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Too high metabolism may lead to muscle catabolism if calorie intake is insufficient. T3 is "known" as catabolic hormone in medicine mostly because some studies used very high doses without matching increase in calories and weight/muscle loss was seen. Progesterone suffers from the same misconceptions. Many people use progesterone and do not increase calories, leading to net loss in weight and sometimes muscle mass. That's the context in which I made that statement.
Got it. Thanks a lot for the explanation.
 

Dave Clark

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Thanks for the honest feedback.
I personally found the best effects when used with Pansterone. I think 6-keto, being a progestogen, may compete with progesterone and T for access to the 5-AR enzyme and when used on its own to result in lower DHT or allopregnanolone levels. I did not experience what you describe when used on its own but combining with Pansterone definitely felt better than used on its own.
Keith has point that I was pondering. For instance, with LDN it blocks the endorphin receptors and makes the body feel like it has to produce more, which is what you want with LDN. Could this happen here as well, by blocking cortisol does it cause the body to want to produce more?
 

Dave Clark

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Also wondering for those of us who may of tested on the low side on saliva cortisol tests if the 6-keto would be okay to use if it technically doesn't lower cortisol levels. I remember Peat saying he preferred blood cortisol tests over saliva, so I wonder how accurate they are anyway. I guess, try it and find out, but if someone has an opinion on this, please chime in.
 

Dotdash

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Yes, it does not seem to affect sleep and in fact may promote it through cortisol opposition. But it does not make me sedated like progesterone does. It stacks great with Gonadin and Pansterone. I usually use a single dose of Gonadin daily (8 drops) and it seemed to stack well with 10 drops 6-keto. When stacked with Pansterone I use 10 drops 6-keto with 4 drops Pansterone and for me that exceeds the effects of 10mg oral T dissolved in vitamin E. So, it seems to match the study which said the 6-keto should have about 2/3 of the effects of T, which means using a dose about 1/3 higher could match a given dose of T. In other words, is the goal is to match the effects of 10mg T, then about 15mg of 6-keto should be able to do it. Have not tried it with Diamant yet, so if you do please share your experience.
For a postmenopausal female with very low T levels would this product combined with Pansterone (as you discussed) be better than using small dose of Androsterone alone or in combination with the 6-keto?
 

managing

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just no sex drive
It lowers estrogen. Estrogen gives one a raging sexual desire, but poor performance (I am talking about men, to be clear). Lower estrogen leads one to have fewer explicitly sexual thoughts and desires. But improves performance.

Can you distinguish between these two, when you say "no sex drive". My experience with most things expected to lower estrogen (including this) is the latter.
 

Kingpinguin

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It lowers estrogen. Estrogen gives one a raging sexual desire, but poor performance (I am talking about men, to be clear). Lower estrogen leads one to have fewer explicitly sexual thoughts and desires. But improves performance.

Can you distinguish between these two, when you say "no sex drive". My experience with most things expected to lower estrogen (including this) is the latter.

is this your own observational opinion or is there studies backing up that fact? The only thing I know is estrogen helps with nitric oxide which is required for boners. I never heard that low estrogen boost your performance? Any evidence of this? Seems speculative
 

managing

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is this your own observational opinion or is there studies backing up that fact? The only thing I know is estrogen helps with nitric oxide which is required for boners. I never heard that low estrogen boost your performance? Any evidence of this? Seems speculative
Subjective for sure, but not speculative. This has been reported by many, across various threads, through time, on these fora.

Peat also has stated that high estrogen leads to a very high sex drive.

Understand, I am only suggesting "relative" values for higher and lower. As everybody here should know by now, there is such a thing as "too low" for estrogen.
 

Kingpinguin

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Subjective for sure, but not speculative. This has been reported by many, across various threads, through time, on these fora.

Peat also has stated that high estrogen leads to a very high sex drive.

Understand, I am only suggesting "relative" values for higher and lower. As everybody here should know by now, there is such a thing as "too low" for estrogen.

yeah i personally tested both above range T and E same time and my drive was alright not very high sex drive. Maybe other factors involved.
 

Momado965

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Don't have much science to back this up with but I feel best on combination doses 10mg 6-keto P4 with 5mg Pansterone (5mg/5mg pregnenolone/DHEA). I usually take this combination twice a day but some people use up to 3 times. Matches well with Peat saying he think the optimal ratio of progesterone:DHEA when used together is 1:1 to 2:1 depending on how prone the person is to converting into estrogen.

I can confrim this. Keto p4 and pansterone is awesome. I tried even higher doses and it was awesome.
 

skycop00

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I can confrim this. Keto p4 and pansterone is awesome. I tried even higher doses and it was awesome.
Yes that is the ONLY way I would use it (WITH Pansterone). Tried solo and was not a favorable response at 5mg. Much better with combo!
 

Markus

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I can confrim this. Keto p4 and pansterone is awesome. I tried even higher doses and it was awesome.
How do you apply it when using higher doses? I find that 2-4 drops is fine either orally or topically on my wrists, but more than that and it gets messy or the taste is too strong.
 

schultz

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is this your own observational opinion or is there studies backing up that fact? The only thing I know is estrogen helps with nitric oxide which is required for boners. I never heard that low estrogen boost your performance? Any evidence of this? Seems speculative


I don't believe NO is required for erections. I think Testosterone can give erections without NO.
 

Kingpinguin

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I don't believe NO is required for erections. I think Testosterone can give erections without NO.

Testosterone, preoptic dopamine, and copulation in male rats. - PubMed - NCBI

Finally, blocking nitric oxide synthase in intact males blocked the copulation-induced release of dopamine in the MPOA. Therefore, one means by which testosterone may promote copulation is by upregulating nitric oxide synthesis in the MPOA, which in turn enhances dopamine release.



Theres another study where they castrated rats and gave them testosterone. These rats did not get the nitric oxide release in the medial preoptic area which is needed for libido and sex drive. But when they administered estrogen along with the testosterone it did and sex drive normalized. Couldnt find the study atm but if you really want to i can dig it out for you.

basically you are right testosterone is needed for libido and erections. But estrogen and nitric oxide is also needed. Nitric oxide is a neurotransmitter aswell and not only vasodialator for the penis.
If you look at how viagra works it works more by releasing nitric oxide in the mpoa which causes increase sex drive than it does increasing vasodilation. Basically viagras action is in the brain through nitric oxide. And so is testosterone and estrogen. They are all needed for healthy libido.
Why do you think aromatase inhibitors block erection capacity. Its so effective that if you block estrogen enough viagra also stops working. And all those functions have actions in the mpoa in the brain. And estrogens just like testosterone also work by releasing nitric oxide in the brain.

aromatase enzyme is needed for males to be able to get erections. If you dont convert testosterone to estrogen in the brain you wont be able to have erections. This is how AIs are libido killers
Blockade of Testosterone-Induced Mounting Behavior in the Male Rat with Intracranial Application of the Aromatization Inhibitor, Androst-l,4,6-triene-3,17-dione
 
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schultz

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Testosterone, preoptic dopamine, and copulation in male rats. - PubMed - NCBI

Finally, blocking nitric oxide synthase in intact males blocked the copulation-induced release of dopamine in the MPOA. Therefore, one means by which testosterone may promote copulation is by upregulating nitric oxide synthesis in the MPOA, which in turn enhances dopamine release.



Theres another study where they castrated rats and gave them testosterone. These rats did not get the nitric oxide release in the medial preoptic area which is needed for libido and sex drive. But when they administered estrogen along with the testosterone it did and sex drive normalized. Couldnt find the study atm but if you really want to i can dig it out for you.

basically you are right testosterone is needed for libido and erections. But estrogen and nitric oxide is also needed. Nitric oxide is a neurotransmitter aswell and not only vasodialator for the penis.
If you look at how viagra works it works more by releasing nitric oxide in the mpoa which causes increase sex drive than it does increasing vasodilation. Basically viagras action is in the brain through nitric oxide. And so is testosterone and estrogen. They are all needed for healthy libido.
Why do you think aromatase inhibitors block erection capacity. Its so effective that if you block estrogen enough viagra also stops working. And all those functions have actions in the mpoa in the brain. And estrogens just like testosterone also work by releasing nitric oxide in the brain.

aromatase enzyme is needed for males to be able to get erections. If you dont convert testosterone to estrogen in the brain you wont be able to have erections. This is how AIs are libido killers
Blockade of Testosterone-Induced Mounting Behavior in the Male Rat with Intracranial Application of the Aromatization Inhibitor, Androst-l,4,6-triene-3,17-dione

If you find the study I'd be interested, but don't go looking for it as that could potentially take a long time.

I don't have studies or anything, but was just repeating what Ray said in the recent Timpone interview. Maybe I understood him incorrectly. Relistening to it, I actually cannot make out one or two of the words he says but here is what I can hear...

"The nitric oxide *??* causes vasodilation, that really isn't the mechanism of erection. It's testosterone that gives muscle tone to the veins which empty the penis, and the nitric oxide opens the vessels into the penis. So they are doing the same thing in different ways, but the right amount of testosterone maintains a certain tone in the exit vessels, allowing a considerable amount of blood to stay there even in the passive state."

Edit: He says this in the November 2019 Patrick Timpone interview at around 24 minutes.

Edit2: Just realized this is the 6-keto P4 thread.... Sorry for derailing.
 

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