I recently had a bad crash from PFS (I was initially taking propecia, then taking avodart. It's been 7 months since my last dose of avodart). My symptoms have been much more cognitive than sexual. Extreme anxiety, depression, brain fog, words not coming to mind or mouth like they used to, etc. Although over the last 2 weeks I do feel my ability to get a strong erection has been reduced. Anyways, my recent crash was bad, felt like I was going to crawl out of my skin, suicidal thoughts, just couldn't function. I went to my psychiatrist and have been on low dose fluoxetine (2mg daily) and a lower dose klonopin (.5mg 2x daily) for the past 5 days and I feel pretty stabilized compared to how I was. I also take 10g of gelatin each morning for glycine. What are you thoughts on 5a-DHP with what I'm currently taking? The plan is to phase out the klonopin over the next month or two, but any potential negatives to doing the 5a-DHP now and if it adds to my recovery, phasing out the klonopin faster? I feel the allopregnanolone factor (lack of it) is key to why I've felt so crappy, but just want to make sure I'm not overdoing the GABA side of things.
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5α-DHP - Liquid 5α-Dihydroprogesterone For Lab/R&D
I'm not haidut but what helped me personally big time was pregnenolone, 5a-DHP, thyroid, caffeine and eating strictly pro thyroid (peat). 5a-DHP helped the most mentally big time and pregnenolone helped everywhere else including mentally too.
Yeah, I take 15mg. I used to take it at dinner every day. But I switched to morning dose with my 200mg caffeine pill and I like it much better. Reminds me similar to the niacinamide and caffeine combo but better and smoother. I also still take around 100-150mg of pregnenolone in the morning still (i just use a heaping scoop). My cortisol is probably low (I checked estrogen and it was right in mid range) but I have no idea if it's something 5AR related though like in the previous chart I posted it could be 5a-THDOC related or 5-DHT. Out of all the things I tried which is basically like almost anything you can think of, 5a-DHP was the biggest help mentally. All of my other hormones are normal and good. Only thing my TSH was elevated (3.2) but that was prior to peating I have no idea what is now though assume it's much lower since my metabolism improved.
My stress tolerance has improved greatly, but not back to 100% normal so I still think one of the neurosteroids/cortisol is being inhibited whether it be 5a-THDOC related or 5a-DHT that are still being suppressed.
I add in T3 too with my preg.
This week I added in K2 for my gums since I'm getting a deep mercury filling removed tomorrow (unrelated ).
Allopreg and neurosteroids
Sex-dependent effect of a low neurosteroid environment and intrauterine growth restriction on foetal guinea pig brain development
In this study, the chronic administration of finasteride during late gestation was successful in markedly reducing allopregnanolone concentrations in the foetal guinea pig brain. It has been proposed that this late gestation reduction in foetal brain allopregnanolone may mimic the change in brain neurosteroid concentration that occurs when a foetus is born preterm and the placenta, as a major source of progesterone, an important precursor of allopregnanolone, is prematurely removed (Hirst et al. 2006). The ability of the preterm infant to synthesise important neurosteroids independently of placentally derived precursors may be limited and the effect of this decline in endogenous steroids on preterm ex utero brain development may influence the vulnerability of the preterm neonatal brain to injury.
The Dark Side of 5α-Reductase Inhibitors' Therapy: Sexual Dysfunction, High Gleason Grade Prostate Cancer and Depression
It has recently been shown that patients who had been treated with finasteride have reduced or undetectable levels of neuroactive steroids in their cerebro-spinal fluid and plasma, and exhibited higher levels of precursor steroids [75]. This observation strongly suggests that 5α-RIs have a deleterious effect on the biosynthesis and function of neurosteroids in the central nervous system. Finasteride treatment resulted in decreased levels of 5α-DHT and 3α, 5α-tetrahydroprogesterone (AP) and increased levels of testosterone supporting the hypothesis that deleterious effects of finasteride may be persistent or irreversible. This may explain some of the noted symptoms such as anxiety, depression and suicide in patients who have been treated with finasteride [76].
Neurosteroid synthesis in the hippocampus is suggested to be critical for neuroplasticity in the brain [84]. Inhibition of 5α-R by finasteride is thought to contribute to reduced neuroplasticity due to structural changes resulting from inhibition of neurogenesis in the hippocampus. Finasteride treatment in mice showed decreased cell proliferation in the hippocampus, suggesting that inhibitors of 5α-R blocks neurogenesis
The neuroprotective effect of AP was further illustrated during injury to the rat hippocampus slices induced by tributyltin treatment, which resulted in significant cell death. Administration of progesterone (P) with finasteride showed similar cell death to that induced by tributyltin treatment, in the various regions of the hippocampus. In contrast, P treatment without finasteride provided a protective effect. This is attributed to the conversion of P to 5α-DHP by 5α-Rs and to AP by 3α-HSD. To confirm that this is due to the neuroprotective effect of AP, the latter was administered with or without finasteride. While the tributyltin induced cell death was significant, administration of AP with and without finasteride produced a markedly protective effect as assessed by the reduced cell death [83]. These findings suggest that 5α-Rs play a pivotal role in neuroprotection.
5α-R reaction is the rate limiting step in the conversion of testosterone, progesterone, cortisol, corticosterone, and DOC into their respective 5α-dihydro-deratitves, which serve as precursors for 3α-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase which transforms such precursors into their respective neurosteroids (androstanediol, allopregnanolone [AP], tetrahydrocortisol, tetrahdyrocorticosterone, and tetrahydrodeoxycorticosterone) (Fig. 1) [1,2]. All three isoforms of 5α-R are expressed in the various regions of brain and are thought to be critical for brain development since fetal brain express high concentrations of 5α-R [1,2].
It has been reported that AP levels were significantly decreased in postmortem human brains of Alzheimer disease (AD) patients [86]. An inverse correlation was noted between AP levels and the degree of neurological degeneration in pathological section of AD patient [86]. One of the interesting findings was that pregnenolone levels were greater in the temporal cortex of AD patients suggesting that this may be a compensating mechanism for reduced 5α-R activity. We speculate that 5α-RIs may contribute to reduced levels of neurosteroids in the CNS and this may enhance the progression of neurodegenerative disease, such as AD.
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Thanks TubZy. What thyroid do you prefer/take?
I have some T3 (cynomel) that I nibble on throughout the day. I notice a big difference whenI pair it with preg, temp goes up a lot.
Found it, this study is crazy. Look at allopreg holy ***t...
http://www.lf1.cuni.cz/Data/Files/PragueMedicalReport/pmr_110_2009_03/pmr2009a0025.pdf
http://www.lf1.cuni.cz/Data/Files/PragueMedicalReport/pmr_110_2009_03/pmr2009a0025.pdf
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Dht and allopregnanolone most significant.Found it, this study is crazy. Look at allopreg holy ***t...
http://www.lf1.cuni.cz/Data/Files/PragueMedicalReport/pmr_110_2009_03/pmr2009a0025.pdf
sladerunner69
Member
I think he's asking if you're going to order some more from idealabs? He wants to know if you practice what you preach....
sladerunner69
Member
Found it, this study is crazy. Look at allopreg holy ***t...
http://www.lf1.cuni.cz/Data/Files/PragueMedicalReport/pmr_110_2009_03/pmr2009a0025.pdf
Whoa that's a great find.
Looks like both DHT and allogpregnenlone took a huge dive! as expected from 5-ar inhibition I suppose.
Suprisingly pregnenlone was relatively unaffected. And testosterone actually INCREASED! This explains why so many post fiansteride guys report good levels of testosterone but still feel like ***t mentally and physically. The 5-ar steroids are severely diminished!
Lends mroe creedence to my original theory that the key to curing pfs lies in allopregnenlone and dht supplementation! I am such a prodigal scientist indeed!
But seriously we just need to fine tune the dosages for allopregnenlone and dht. What about taking allopregnenone itself? Or taking 5-ar enzyme? I suspect those are illegal but someone should run tests on a lab rat for sure.
Androsterone also took a decent hit too. We experimented with some of them already like androsterone, 5a-DHP etc. but there are others that also take a hit. What about 5a-THDOC? it mentioned in the text below that is was studied just as much as allopreg. That is the one route I have never tried yet and not sure how to increase that directly? Maybe progesterone?. I tried epi andro in the past. Here is an excerpt from the study of the most effected ones:
Pharma AIs prob increase 5-ar since aromatase is greatly inhibited.
sladerunner69
Member
Androsterone also took a decent hit too. We experimented with some of them already like androsterone, 5a-DHP etc. but there are others that also take a hit. What about 5a-THDOC? it mentioned in the text below that is was studied just as much as allopreg. That is the one route I have never tried yet and not sure how to increase that directly? Maybe progesterone?. I tried epi andro in the past. Here is an excerpt from the study of the most effected ones:
honestly it seems to me like we need tog et our hands on some 5ar enzyme because that could replensih all of the pathways.
But the postiive feedback effect that 5ar reduced steroids have should help to icnrease 5ar itself and then increase these other steroids.
Isnt tha thormone you metion in the same pathway as 5adhp?
Yeah, I agree. I'm not sure if haidut is still getting 5AR enzyme but I know he plans to release some stuff in the next coming weeks. If we get that your right that should take care of all the pathways. 5a-DHP should essentially provide positive feedback of 5AR in the brain so I think it would still be good to take it regardless. I wonder if taking a massive saturation dose of 5a-DHP will help upregulate 5AR in the brain quicker. The most potent mental combo I found was 200mg caffeine pill with 15mg of 5a-DHP.
No, 5a-THDOC is from progesterone. 5a-DHP is derived from progesterone too but in a different path. Check out the chart on the previous page.
How would 5-ar supplementation work? Has it been studied/done before? Prob very risky with many unknown sides.
It's talked about it this thread: Idealabs Comments And Suggestions
Safety wise I don't care honestly prob did more damage over the past 2.5 years without fully active working 5AR enzymes.
Good point. More to gain than lose in the situation.
@TubZy @sladerunner69 @haidut have either of you guys had success combining 5a-DHP, Androsterone, Preg and DHEA? Would this be too much androgen activity and/or estrogen inhibition?
sladerunner69
Member
I tried that but only used 2 drops androsterone in the morning with 3 drops pansterone and 4 drops stressnon. In the afternoon i took 4 drops stressnon with 5 drops 5adhp. I also took vitamin a, d, e, and aspirin and caffiene and some niacinmide. The anti-stress effect was too strong and i began to feel dry and irritable. I also became kind of listless and got a headache. But i had some good libido.
DHEA is no longer in my stack. I used only a few mg's for a brief period of time but felt like it was doing more harm than good. Either my cortisol is low or 5a-THDOC is low so DHEA was making me feel worse.
Preg, 5a-DHP are both in my stack now and work well. Androsterone I use on occasion and stopped using daily since I was tanking my estrogen/cortisol too much. Yeah, just be careful with the supps you are taking you can easily over do it believe it or not.
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