jaa

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Eventually, the plan is to have two options for all steroids - one with DMSO and one with tocopherols. There pros and cons to each approach so people will be able to choose. This case was unique as 5a-DHP simply does not dissolve in anything but tocopherols, that is how saturated it is :)

Sweet!
 

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haidut

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Would this cause nosebleeds like regular progesterone ?

Maybe, as it has similar "receptor" binding profile to progesterone. But the thing is - this steroid is a direct precursor to allopregnanolone. It can only convert to allopregnanolone and does so readily when it finds its way into the blood so levels of unbound 5α-DHP (not bound to albumin) probably do not stay elevated long enough to cause side effects. Allopregnanolone itself can convert back into 5α-DHP or further down into the pathways eventually leading to androsterone. There have been extensive clinical trials with high doses of both allopregnanolone and its synthetic analog Ganaxolone. If allopregnanolone can raise levels of 5α-DHP through conversion back up the pathways, you would expect to see bleeding issues pop up as the allopregnanolone/ganaxolone doses used were huge. As far as I know there no such issues. But I would keep an eye out for these side effects like I do for any supplement. Here is one report discussing side effects:
http://umu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:458846/FULLTEXT01.pdf

Look on page 49, section "Side Effects". I did not see any mentioning of bleeding.
 

goodandevil

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Eventually, the plan is to have two options for all steroids - one with DMSO and one with tocopherols. There pros and cons to each approach so people will be able to choose. This case was unique as 5a-DHP simply does not dissolve in anything but tocopherols, that is how saturated it is :)
I like this plan @haidut . Hope you're having a good thanksgiving.
 

TubZy

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Eventually, the plan is to have two options for all steroids - one with DMSO and one with tocopherols. There pros and cons to each approach so people will be able to choose. This case was unique as 5a-DHP simply does not dissolve in anything but tocopherols, that is how saturated it is :)

Thank you. People like us would understand the second non DMSO option even if it costs more.
 

TubZy

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Most of the studies I have seen used single dose, once daily. I don't have much into on the half-life (yet) but 5a-DHP binds very strongly to albumin and as such its half0life mimics that of albumin, which is very long on the matter of weeks. Also, once it enters the cell, due to its lipophilicity it stays inside and either gets converted into other steroids down the pathway or stays inside the "membrane". I don't think 5a-DHP is as easily excretable as progesterone, and given that is dissolved in tocopherols it gets into the lymphatic system (as Ray said) and probably stays there for as long as it is needed. The only thing that seems to lower its levels is the need for conversion into other steroids as it is still pretty high up the chain and can be used that way. But it is not in the pathway to cortisol, estrogen, and aldosterone so whatever it converts into other than allopregnanolone is probably pretty good. There is also some evidence that 5a-DHP also inhibits 11b-HSD1 so it should lower cortisol directly, similarly to the structurally similar steroid DHT. Also, all GABA agonist have a tendency to lower cortisol and one of strong benzos is used off-label for Cushing syndrome for that reason. So, it looks pretty good so far.

You mentioned 5a-DHP is good for the immune system and is antiviral. Do you think the inhibitory effects of finasteride particularly progesterone and it's metabolites could be the reason why many post finasteride and current finasteride users are so suspectible to immune issues and infections?
 

Wagner83

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Amazing. Many Thanks for no DMSO. I've been noticing lately that DMSO has some pretty bad side-effects in me, that I didn't get with your earlier supplements that also contain DMSO. Think of brain fog, tiredness, anxiety. I have no idea why that is happening but I know it's the DMSO. When I stop using DMSO it goes away after a few days. And when applying DMSO I start to feel weird again after a few days. Happens everytime. Maybe I got oversensitive to it, but I wont be using any supplements in DMSO anymore. Not trying to bash Haidut or DMSO but that is just my experience. I have also noticed a trend. Most bad reactions to Idealabs supplements are the ones that used DMSO. I have noticed that Estroban, Energin etc have nothing but good reactions, but the ones with DMSO such as pansterone, tyromix, androsterone etc have some good and some bad reactions.

Have you used dmso on its own (if so which one and what quantity) or idealabs products? Estroban and energin have not the same kind of effects as using steroids or precursors to steroids afaik, so I wonder how you can assert your symptoms were from the dmso only.
 
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You mentioned 5a-DHP is good for the immune system and is antiviral. Do you think the inhibitory effects of finasteride particularly progesterone and it's metabolites could be the reason why many post finasteride and current finasteride users are so suspectible to immune issues and infections?

That is certainly a good possibility. But I think a potentially more important issue is that anything that inhibits 5-AR will increase cortisol, which of course suppresses the immune system and allows infections to happen. The 5-AR enzyme is crucial for both cortisol degradation and bile acid synthesis and both of these are importan for infections. Inhibiting 5-AR will raise cortisol and if this was not enough it will also inhibit bile acid synthesis and without bile acids to activate the bile acid receptor there is not much conversion of T4 into T3, which further makes the organism succumb to infections.
Central 5-alpha reduction of testosterone is required for testosterone's inhibition of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis response to restraint... - PubMed - NCBI
"...In rodents, the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis is controlled by a precise regulatory mechanism that is influenced by circulating gonadal and adrenal hormones. In males, gonadectomy increases the adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) and corticosterone (CORT) response to stressors, and androgen replacement returns the response to that of the intact male. Testosterone (T) actions in regulating HPA activity may be through aromatization to estradiol, or by 5α-reduction to the more potent androgen, dihydrotestosterone (DHT). To determine if the latter pathway is involved, we assessed the function of the HPA axis response to restraint stress following hormone treatments, or after peripheral or central treatment with the 5α-reductase inhibitor, finasteride. Initially, we examined the timecourse whereby gonadectomy alters the CORT response to restraint stress. Enhanced CORT responses were evident within 48 h following gonadectomy. Correspondingly, treatment of intact male rats with the 5α-reductase inhibitor, finasteride, for 48 h, enhanced the CORT and ACTH response to restraint stress. Peripheral injections of gonadectomized male rats with DHT or T for 48 h reduced the ACTH and CORT response to restraint stress. The effects of T, but not DHT, could be blocked by the third ventricle administration of finasteride prior to stress application. These data indicate that the actions of T in modulating HPA axis activity involve 5α-reductase within the central nervous system. These results further our understanding of how T acts to modulate the neuroendocrine stress responses and indicate that 5α reduction to DHT is a necessary step for T action."

How Pregnenolone And Progesterone Raise Metabolism

Now, I don't know if 5a-DHP also activates the bile acid receptor and thus raises metabolism. I will search for evidence and post here. But it can certainly do so when it converts into allopregnanolone, which is the very next step in the pathway.
 

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@haidut, and you shipped on the Thanksgiving holiday. I must say I'm impressed.
 
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Ever since finasteride, I've had a difficult time losing weight. Hell, I've been overweight since I first took it. That being said, applying K2 and preg to testes/abdomen have increased my temperatures and I'm not sure I want to mess with a good thing. I haven't lost any serious fat, yet.

Do you think 5a-DHP might act as a fat loss agent to finasteride users?
 

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Have you used dmso on its own (if so which one and what quantity) or idealabs products? Estroban and energin have not the same kind of effects as using steroids or precursors to steroids afaik, so I wonder how you can assert your symptoms were from the dmso only.
Only idealabs products. I can use Estroban, Energin and Oxidal as much and as long as I want, no side effects only positive effects. In contrast, Pansterone, Progestene, Tyromix, Ritanserin work only for a day or two, and then the weird side effects become unbearable and I have to stop taking it. It makes me feel poisoned or something. In the past Pansterone was dissolved in tocopherols and that also worked great! Even the first batches of Idealabs supplements that had DMSO worked without side effects. But the latest batches of DMSO supplements make me kinda feel sick. Maybe the DMSO that was used in the early batches is a different kind of DMSO? Or I just became sensitive to it that's also possible.
 
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haidut

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Ever since finasteride, I've had a difficult time losing weight. Hell, I've been overweight since I first took it. That being said, applying K2 and preg to testes/abdomen have increased my temperatures and I'm not sure I want to mess with a good thing. I haven't lost any serious fat, yet.

Do you think 5a-DHP might act as a fat loss agent to finasteride users?

If you are getting good effects with something, I agree that there is no need to mess with something that works for now. I'd keep doing what works and only add stuff if I feel I am not seeing changes/benefit any more.
 

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This thing about 5a-DHP being converted to allopreg only is very interesting. I used an SSRI (Prozac) for many years and I'm curious how the 5a-DHP is going to compare with it, given that some people believe prozac benefits are caused by the alloprenenolone increase. Will report when I buy it this christmas. I'm away from home now.
 
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Pardon me @haidut, since people are asking you about products, any word on taurine inclusion in Solban? Thanks

We can put a small amount but it won't be enough to match the human studies on hair growth. Since SolBan already contains 3 other ingredients and some ethanol, it is already almost "at capacity" for adding one more chemical. But we can probably add 10mg - 20mg per dose.
 

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That is certainly a good possibility. But I think a potentially more important issue is that anything that inhibits 5-AR will increase cortisol, which of course suppresses the immune system and allows infections to happen. The 5-AR enzyme is crucial for both cortisol degradation and bile acid synthesis and both of these are importan for infections. Inhibiting 5-AR will raise cortisol and if this was not enough it will also inhibit bile acid synthesis and without bile acids to activate the bile acid receptor there is not much conversion of T4 into T3, which further makes the organism succumb to infections.
Central 5-alpha reduction of testosterone is required for testosterone's inhibition of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis response to restraint... - PubMed - NCBI
"...In rodents, the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis is controlled by a precise regulatory mechanism that is influenced by circulating gonadal and adrenal hormones. In males, gonadectomy increases the adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) and corticosterone (CORT) response to stressors, and androgen replacement returns the response to that of the intact male. Testosterone (T) actions in regulating HPA activity may be through aromatization to estradiol, or by 5α-reduction to the more potent androgen, dihydrotestosterone (DHT). To determine if the latter pathway is involved, we assessed the function of the HPA axis response to restraint stress following hormone treatments, or after peripheral or central treatment with the 5α-reductase inhibitor, finasteride. Initially, we examined the timecourse whereby gonadectomy alters the CORT response to restraint stress. Enhanced CORT responses were evident within 48 h following gonadectomy. Correspondingly, treatment of intact male rats with the 5α-reductase inhibitor, finasteride, for 48 h, enhanced the CORT and ACTH response to restraint stress. Peripheral injections of gonadectomized male rats with DHT or T for 48 h reduced the ACTH and CORT response to restraint stress. The effects of T, but not DHT, could be blocked by the third ventricle administration of finasteride prior to stress application. These data indicate that the actions of T in modulating HPA axis activity involve 5α-reductase within the central nervous system. These results further our understanding of how T acts to modulate the neuroendocrine stress responses and indicate that 5α reduction to DHT is a necessary step for T action."

How Pregnenolone And Progesterone Raise Metabolism

Now, I don't know if 5a-DHP also activates the bile acid receptor and thus raises metabolism. I will search for evidence and post here. But it can certainly do so when it converts into allopregnanolone, which is the very next step in the pathway.
Maybe the itchiness that people point at DMSO as cause, is the bile acid synthesis--akind of bile salts pruritus???
 
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haidut

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Maybe the itchiness that people point at DMSO as cause, is the bile acid synthesis--akind of bile salts pruritus???

Quite possible, thanks for pointing it out. Despite the criticisms of DMSO lately, it helps to keep in mind that DMSO is the standard for dissolving chemicals (especially steroids) for clinical research and particular in animal studies. It is part of quite a few topical drugs that many people are using on a daily basis are probably not even aware of them containing DMSO.
Dimethyl sulfoxide - Wikipedia
"...Use of DMSO in medicine dates from around 1963, when an Oregon Health & Science University Medical School team, headed by Stanley Jacob, discovered it could penetrate the skin and other membranes without damaging them and could carry other compounds into a biological system. In medicine, DMSO is predominantly used as a topical analgesic, a vehicle for topical application of pharmaceuticals, as an anti-inflammatory, and an antioxidant.[19] Because DMSO increases the rate of absorption of some compounds through organic tissues, including skin, it is used in some transdermal drug delivery systems. Its effect may be enhanced with the addition of EDTA. It is frequently compounded with antifungal medications, enabling them to penetrate not just skin but also toenails and fingernails."

"...In medical research, DMSO is often used as a drug vehicle in in vivo and in vitro experiments. However, when a researcher is unaware of its pleiotropic effects, or when the control groups are not carefully planned, a bias can occur; an effect of DMSO can be falsely attributed to the drug.[23] For example, even a very low dose of DMSO has a powerful protective effect against paracetamol (acetaminophen)-induced liver injury in mice.[24]."
 

TubZy

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That is certainly a good possibility. But I think a potentially more important issue is that anything that inhibits 5-AR will increase cortisol, which of course suppresses the immune system and allows infections to happen. The 5-AR enzyme is crucial for both cortisol degradation and bile acid synthesis and both of these are importan for infections. Inhibiting 5-AR will raise cortisol and if this was not enough it will also inhibit bile acid synthesis and without bile acids to activate the bile acid receptor there is not much conversion of T4 into T3, which further makes the organism succumb to infections.
Central 5-alpha reduction of testosterone is required for testosterone's inhibition of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis response to restraint... - PubMed - NCBI
"...In rodents, the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis is controlled by a precise regulatory mechanism that is influenced by circulating gonadal and adrenal hormones. In males, gonadectomy increases the adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) and corticosterone (CORT) response to stressors, and androgen replacement returns the response to that of the intact male. Testosterone (T) actions in regulating HPA activity may be through aromatization to estradiol, or by 5α-reduction to the more potent androgen, dihydrotestosterone (DHT). To determine if the latter pathway is involved, we assessed the function of the HPA axis response to restraint stress following hormone treatments, or after peripheral or central treatment with the 5α-reductase inhibitor, finasteride. Initially, we examined the timecourse whereby gonadectomy alters the CORT response to restraint stress. Enhanced CORT responses were evident within 48 h following gonadectomy. Correspondingly, treatment of intact male rats with the 5α-reductase inhibitor, finasteride, for 48 h, enhanced the CORT and ACTH response to restraint stress. Peripheral injections of gonadectomized male rats with DHT or T for 48 h reduced the ACTH and CORT response to restraint stress. The effects of T, but not DHT, could be blocked by the third ventricle administration of finasteride prior to stress application. These data indicate that the actions of T in modulating HPA axis activity involve 5α-reductase within the central nervous system. These results further our understanding of how T acts to modulate the neuroendocrine stress responses and indicate that 5α reduction to DHT is a necessary step for T action."

How Pregnenolone And Progesterone Raise Metabolism

Now, I don't know if 5a-DHP also activates the bile acid receptor and thus raises metabolism. I will search for evidence and post here. But it can certainly do so when it converts into allopregnanolone, which is the very next step in the pathway.

Thanks I'm actually pretty excited for this compound. Is your rat using oral or topical?
 
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haidut

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Thanks I'm actually pretty excited for this compound. Is your rat using oral or topical?

Oral for now. Will experiment like that for a few weeks and then switch to topical to see if there is any difference.
 

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