5-HTP

[Frankdee20]

Doesn't Tryptophan also make you produce more serotonin? I was under the impression that tryptophan was not an amino acid you want to try to get more of, if anything you get plenty from muscle meats and you want to balance it out with as much of the amino acids prevalent in gelatin such as glycine as possible.

I guess I posted that as juxtaposing the lesser of two evils

 

[Frankdee20]

@Frankdee20

Hey FrankDee, I'm not taking 5htp but I am trying something that will eventually help balance out serotonin. Would you be willing to share your experience on this thread rather than PM so myself and future readers will know of the concern you're referencing? It could be helpful for others who view this in the future

Many years ago, I tried 5htp. This was before I knew how bad raising Serotonin could be. It was purported to help everything from insomnia to depression. The first week or so, I believe it helped me sleep. I believe that negative effects could've occurred that very first day. Terrible GI effects began, intense stomach issues. Increased frequency of urination too, perhaps from anxiety. It took me an extra week to figure out what was really happening. Weird anxiety occurred, like social situations weren't the same anymore. This inner nightmarish feeling of dread and restless energy took over. It didn't seem as though I ever reached homeostasis by stopping my use. Insomnia was worsened, I felt my thoughts were a million and scattered. It was hard to focus, and I couldn't work anymore. I lost confidence in everything and became deeply and harrowingly depressed. I knew this thing messed me up but no doctor believed it. I developed strange muscle aches and pains like a Fivromyalgia state. Intense fatigue and low brain energy persisted. I developed food sensitivities, and couldn't tolerate chemicals and supplements or medications. This hypersensitive nervous system state is talked about by Charles Groenindijk. He ran a site for Antidepressant recovery and a segment titled surviving a negative reaction to an SSRI is what I refer too. I honestly don't know why what happened did so, but I knew 5htp messed up my homeostasis. It took a long time to get better.

 

[Frankdee20]

I must say the difference between anxiety caused by serotonin vs other things is that 5htp was a weird almost depersonalized and almost surrealized anxiety. It's anxiety but thoughts were scary and black. Different from anxiety caused by coffee for example. That's just a feeling. But this was hallmarked by black thoughts and lots of rumination, obsessive rumination, that never dissipated. It's as if I was so wrapped up in thoughts, that my surroundings were separate. I felt disconnected from people and the world.

 

[Frankdee20]

What helps me today are nervines, GABA, Taurine, Magnesium, etc.

 

[tara]

5htp is a precursor to serotonin, right? So people take it to get increased serotonin. Serotonin being a hormone that increases naturally to handle some kinds of stress conditions. It may give you short term increased energy and focus and make you feel good, but the longer term consequences of chronically elevated stress hormones, including serotonin, tend to be hard on health (and mood).

Ray Peat on serotonin:
Tryptophan, serotonin, and aging
Serotonin, depression, and aggression - The problem of brain energy.
Serotonin: Effects in disease, aging and inflammation

 

[Frankdee20]

5htp is a precursor to serotonin, right? So people take it to get increased serotonin. Serotonin being a hormone that increases naturally to handle some kinds of stress conditions. It may give you short term increased energy and focus and make you feel good, but the longer term consequences of chronically elevated stress hormones, including serotonin, tend to be hard on health (and mood).

Ray Peat on serotonin:
Tryptophan, serotonin, and aging
Serotonin, depression, and aggression - The problem of brain energy.
Serotonin: Effects in disease, aging and inflammation

Absolutely, prior to Peat, we've been led to believe via advent of SSRIs, that 5ht is panacea. Over the long haul though, its benefits are short lived.

 

[alywest]

I must say the difference between anxiety caused by serotonin vs other things is that 5htp was a weird almost depersonalized and almost surrealized anxiety. It's anxiety but thoughts were scary and black. Different from anxiety caused by coffee for example. That's just a feeling. But this was hallmarked by black thoughts and lots of rumination, obsessive rumination, that never dissipated. It's as if I was so wrapped up in thoughts, that my surroundings were separate. I felt disconnected from people and the world.

Wow, that is really interesting. Thanks for sharing your experience~it sounds like it was a difficult time but you have found some ways to help yourself get out of that funk. It is scary how many people are turning to 5htp for relief from depression and for sleep issues, etc. It is truly a toxic substance and I hope that the tide turns on that one soon. People are always looking for a quick fix and based on the reviews on amazon and stuff you would think 5htp was the answer to all of our problems. I think that when you take someone who is hypothyroid to begin with and put them on something like that you are really asking for trouble. If you're hypothyroid your serotonin levels are probably already totally out of whack so to take something that just throws you that much more out of balance is extremely dangerous. I wonder how many people who turn to 5htp are really just hypothyroid and need to take some t3/t4.

 

[ecstatichamster]

5HTP helped my headaches a little but really thrashed my gut and I am so glad I found out the harm that it was causing before I continued taking the 5HTP.

 

[alywest]

5HTP helped my headaches a little but really thrashed my gut and I am so glad I found out the harm that it was causing before I continued taking the 5HTP.

I wonder if it helps the brain achieve homeostasis the way the SSRIs do? I don't totally understand how that works but it sounds like that is the mechanism by which SSRI's actually help with depression. The gut would be the place where the serotonin would really wreak havoc, though, since that is supposedly where most of our serotonin resides. I wonder if you could take it if you ate, like, a million carrots a day.

 

[Frankdee20]

Some of the blackest most harrowing periods of my life resulted from that. I didn't know any better. Who knows if I was hypo or not

I wonder if it helps the brain achieve homeostasis the way the SSRIs do? I don't totally understand how that works but it sounds like that is the mechanism by which SSRI's actually help with depression. The gut would be the place where the serotonin would really wreak havoc, though, since that is supposedly where most of our serotonin resides. I wonder if you could take it if you ate, like, a million carrots a day.

I don't think, based on my experience, homeostasis was ever taking place. Perhaps the first day or two of use. Everything from then on was disquietingly, harrowingly, and unequivocally the opposite. Even if carrots could attenuate gut issues, what could've protected ones psyche and their brain ? The aftershocks of messing with my serotonin were akin to a psychic abyss. There was no light that could penetrate or escape that black hole of unprecedented despair. This was 17 years ago and I will never forget the magnitude of experience.

 

[alywest]

Some of the blackest most harrowing periods of my life resulted from that. I didn't know any better. Who knows if I was hypo or not


I don't think, based on my experience, homeostasis was ever taking place. Perhaps the first day or two of use. Everything from then on was disquietingly, harrowingly, and unequivocally the opposite. Even if carrots could attenuate gut issues, what could've protected ones psyche and their brain ? The aftershocks of messing with my serotonin were akin to a psychic abyss. There was no light that could penetrate or escape that black hole of unprecedented despair. This was 17 years ago and I will never forget the magnitude of experience.

are you hypothyroid?

 

[alywest]

are you hypothyroid?

nevermind, I just noticed you said you weren't sure. It just sounds like people who are hypothyroid get destroyed more by serotonin imbalances. I wonder how anyone could take 5HTP without having issues in the long run at least, but in the short run someone might experience some positive effects I suppose. I didn't notice how bad it was until I took a large dose and literally thought I was going to die. Fortunately I hadn't been taking it for long, so I was able to completely stop taking it before I experienced what you did. But I'm hypothyroid and I know I would have really messed myself up if I had taken it for a long period of time. I'm almost glad I OD'd before I became a long-term user.

 

[DuggaDugga]

nevermind, I just noticed you said you weren't sure. It just sounds like people who are hypothyroid get destroyed more by serotonin imbalances. I wonder how anyone could take 5HTP without having issues in the long run at least, but in the short run someone might experience some positive effects I suppose. I didn't notice how bad it was until I took a large dose and literally thought I was going to die. Fortunately I hadn't been taking it for long, so I was able to completely stop taking it before I experienced what you did. But I'm hypothyroid and I know I would have really messed myself up if I had taken it for a long period of time. I'm almost glad I OD'd before I became a long-term user.

I think that a termostat analogy is helpful. Your body is continuously managing the levels of everything to achieve homeostasis; temperature, pH, blood glucose, neurotrasmitters, etc, etc.

With temperature as the most tangible example: you're never really constantly at 98.6F (or whatever temp pops up when you measure it), rather your body is constantly sensing that you're just above 98.6F so it dilates blood vessels to lower it, followed by the temp dropping just below 98.6F so your body uses mechanisms to raise it again, back and forth, back and forth. In reality your constantly osculating above and below 98.6F, the less volatility the better.

Assuming the high serotonin hypothesis of depression is accurate, the depressed individual's body is maintaining a high level of brain serotonin due to psychological stress, gastrointestinal issues, excess tryptophan in the diet, whatever. When the individual starts taking an SSRI, serotonin levels in the brain increase even greater, the body senses this, and it takes measures to lower them. Like in the temperature example, the lowering of the serotonin may temporarily dip below what it was maintaining before. This could then theoretically provide a delayed and temporary relief from the depressive symptoms. The results would likely vary greatly by individual and be susceptible to further disruption and volatility.

The effectiveness of SSRIs is mixed at best, with some studies finding increased risk of suicide being a side effect. To me this reeks of neurotransmitter volatility, and evidence that the low serotonin hypothesis is probably wrong. As much revenue as SSRIs generate, it shouldn't be too surprising there is a lot of investment in them being seen as effective, but publication bias has been called out by various researchers.

Selective Publication of Antidepressant Trials and Its Influence on Apparent Efficacy
MMS: Error
(study title not loading, should be clickable)

 

[alywest]

I think that a termostat analogy is helpful. Your body is continuously managing the levels of everything to achieve homeostasis; temperature, pH, blood glucose, neurotrasmitters, etc, etc.

With temperature as the most tangible example: you're never really constantly at 98.6F (or whatever temp pops up when you measure it), rather your body is constantly sensing that you're just above 98.6F so it dilates blood vessels to lower it, followed by the temp dropping just below 98.6F so your body uses mechanisms to raise it again, back and forth, back and forth. In reality your constantly osculating above and below 98.6F, the less volatility the better.

Assuming the high serotonin hypothesis of depression is accurate, the depressed individual's body is maintaining a high level of brain serotonin due to psychological stress, gastrointestinal issues, excess tryptophan in the diet, whatever. When the individual starts taking an SSRI, serotonin levels in the brain increase even greater, the body senses this, and it takes measures to lower them. Like in the temperature example, the lowering of the serotonin may temporarily dip below what it was maintaining before. This could then theoretically provide a delayed and temporary relief from the depressive symptoms. The results would likely vary greatly by individual and be susceptible to further disruption and volatility.

That would probably explain why I have experienced some relief from depression on fluoxetine. I have long since stopped taking it but it seemed that even in stopping taking it I suffered a lot of backlash serotonin-wise. What a mess! Thanks for explaining this all to me in more layman's terms. I did read the paper you posted but much of the time I ended up skimming it because I have two little ones who constantly distract me! Appreciate your help!

 

[Frankdee20]

If anyone

I think that a termostat analogy is helpful. Your body is continuously managing the levels of everything to achieve homeostasis; temperature, pH, blood glucose, neurotrasmitters, etc, etc.

With temperature as the most tangible example: you're never really constantly at 98.6F (or whatever temp pops up when you measure it), rather your body is constantly sensing that you're just above 98.6F so it dilates blood vessels to lower it, followed by the temp dropping just below 98.6F so your body uses mechanisms to raise it again, back and forth, back and forth. In reality your constantly osculating above and below 98.6F, the less volatility the better.

Assuming the high serotonin hypothesis of depression is accurate, the depressed individual's body is maintaining a high level of brain serotonin due to psychological stress, gastrointestinal issues, excess tryptophan in the diet, whatever. When the individual starts taking an SSRI, serotonin levels in the brain increase even greater, the body senses this, and it takes measures to lower them. Like in the temperature example, the lowering of the serotonin may temporarily dip below what it was maintaining before. This could then theoretically provide a delayed and temporary relief from the depressive symptoms. The results would likely vary greatly by individual and be susceptible to further disruption and volatility.

The effectiveness of SSRIs is mixed at best, with some studies finding increased risk of suicide being a side effect. To me this reeks of neurotransmitter volatility, and evidence that the low serotonin hypothesis is probably wrong. As much revenue as SSRIs generate, it shouldn't be too surprising there is a lot of investment in them being seen as effective, but publication bias has been called out by various researchers.

Selective Publication of Antidepressant Trials and Its Influence on Apparent Efficacy
MMS: Error
(study title not loading, should be clickable)

Likely an accurate elucidation on the mechanics behind SSRI's effectiveness, even if they only outperform placebo minimally. That's all it takes to be considered effective lol. A lot of antidepressants are as effective, yet have minimal 5ht activity. So that theory drug companies pushed down our throats, that 5ht was the answer to all that ails our spirit, likely false. Then again, I've also read SSRI effectiveness results from increased Allopregnenalone in the brain.

 

[Dolf]

Thanks for the input! I stopped taking the supplement already, the "good" effevts definitely were placebo

 

[LadyRae]

Most within THIS forum vilify 5-htp, but it works well for me. I take it a few times a week, a 100 mg capsule before bed, when I've been feeling sluggish, moody, and in general, flat. Not only do I sleep great the night after I take a capsule, I wake up feeling energized and motivated to complete tasks that I was procrastinating over, I'm more talkative, less sleepy throughout the day, and more interested in taking walks and engaging in life in general. Also I noticed that I'm more satisfied with healthy meals and I don't crave sugary snacks...

I don't believe that everyone is in a high serotonin situation and I don't believe that serotonin is completely bad. Obviously like with any other hormone individual circumstances very greatly. It's unfortunate that so many people here are quick to negate any possible considerations as to the benefits.