40 Day Waterfast, Wish Me Luck!

[LLight]

@Goobz

I agree with your point but:

NFAT5 being a "master regulator" of the immune system, it also controls other things regarding macrophages: for example NO production and probably autophagy (via LL-37 production) which might help clearing them if they are infected.

Ultimately, people die of the infection even if we call that a cytokine storm (no infection, no cytokine storm). Someone infected wants an active and potent immune system and my hypothesis is that fasting is able to provide that with innate immunity in spite of some T cells clearing.

Herbert Shelton in one of his books:

"Measles, pneumonia, diphteria, smallpox, etc., soon end if no food is given."

The Science and Fine Art of Fasting

 

[Tristan Loscha]

@Goobz

I agree with your point but:

NFAT5 being a "master regulator" of the immune system, it also controls other things regarding macrophages: for example NO production and probably autophagy (via LL-37 production) which might help clearing them if they are infected.

Ultimately, people die of the infection even if we call that a cytokine storm (no infection, no cytokine storm). Someone infected wants an active and potent immune system and my hypothesis is that fasting is able to provide that with innate immunity in spite of some T cells clearing.

Herbert Shelton in one of his books:

"Measles, pneumonia, diphteria, smallpox, etc., soon end if no food is given."

The Science and Fine Art of Fasting

This Shelton dude is making cruel jokes,all mentioned diseases are consuming the Individual,
so it will end very soon.
It is like recc 6 day-dry-fast,5 days is critical condition,6days is death.
Or another joke,what cures cancer 100%? Drinking salt water at the sea as much as possible,
all you can eat-style.Just a couple of days.Healing everyone guranteed 100%!

 

[LLight]

This Shelton dude is making cruel jokes,all mentioned diseases are consuming the Individual,
so it will end very soon.
It is like recc 6 day-dry-fast,5 days is critical condition,6days is death.
Or another joke,what cures cancer 100%? Drinking salt water at the sea as much as possible,
all you can eat-style.Just a couple of days.Healing everyone guranteed 100%!

Seen on Reddit:

"Starting about five days later I had diarrhea and a 99.5 degree fever for nearly 30 days. I lost my appetite so hard I had to straight up had to force myself to even drink water. Literally nothing was appetizing. Got down about one piece of toast per day. 6’0” and 215 lbs and by the fourth week of March I was down to 198 lbs.

I couldn’t get that annoying low grade fever to react to acetaminophen until about day 21.

Strangest illness I ever had. I hope antibody tests are available soon."

Too bad he had no access to your advices.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

Seen on Reddit:

"Starting about five days later I had diarrhea and a 99.5 degree fever for nearly 30 days. I lost my appetite so hard I had to straight up had to force myself to even drink water. Literally nothing was appetizing. Got down about one piece of toast per day. 6’0” and 215 lbs and by the fourth week of March I was down to 198 lbs.

I couldn’t get that annoying low grade fever to react to acetaminophen until about day 21.

Strangest illness I ever had. I hope antibody tests are available soon."

Too bad he had no access to your advices.

We dont know what he lost during the course of this severe metabolic derangement.
Either he had severe illness,or mental health issues,or both.
Either way,he doesnt seem competent to assess his situation and damages clearly.
The fasting crowd is all about rejuvenation,is overlooking the possibility of
braindamage by virtue of the cleansing-idea,rebirth-idea,that 'it' will just grow back,
like nails n'hair.Just not true and the elephant in the room.The entire stress-hormone-
cascade already,to melt down your body,cortisol which melts your brain literally.
Fasting will produce braindamage for a lot of SAD-victims,they will feel better
during the course of the starvation,because the organism ramps up mobilization
in a desperate attempt for survival,to end the starvation.Organism with faulty attribution
of bodily signals says to itselph:Gee,that felt good!afterwards im a skeleton with emptiness,
must be the heelingreaction!I need more starvation.It is false assumptions,false
consciousness,and appeal to innate intelligence of the body,and sophisticated message,signal and attribution-
systems which are not available,at all.

 

[Goobz]

We dont know what he lost during the course of this severe metabolic derangement.
Either he had severe illness,or mental health issues,or both.
Either way,he doesnt seem competent to assess his situation and damages clearly.
The fasting crowd is all about rejuvenation,is overlooking the possibility of
braindamage by virtue of the cleansing-idea,rebirth-idea,that 'it' will just grow back,
like nails n'hair.Just not true and the elephant in the room.The entire stress-hormone-
cascade already,to melt down your body,cortisol which melts your brain literally.
Fasting will produce braindamage for a lot of SAD-victims,they will feel better
during the course of the starvation,because the organism ramps up mobilization
in a desperate attempt for survival,to end the starvation.Organism with faulty attribution
of bodily signals says to itselph:Gee,that felt good!afterwards im a skeleton with emptiness,
must be the heelingreaction!I need more starvation.It is false assumptions,false
consciousness,and appeal to innate intelligence of the body,and sophisticated message,signal and attribution-
systems which are not available,at all.

Have you read any of the study I’ve posted? It deals in detail with actual data.

Your theory that organ systems that are “melted” by cortisol don’t regenerate upon refeeding really isn’t supported by the evidence. The mice in the study showed increased regeneration in their hippocampus after cycles of fasting and refeeding.

I agree that body signals can be mixed up during a fast. One of many reasons why I’ve been saying it’s not a good idea to go too long. 5 days of a fasting mimicking diet is very safe. Tens of thousands of people have done it at this point.

But 40 days seems totally unnecessary, and frankly a bit crazy and potentially dangerous.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

Have you read any of the study I’ve posted? It deals in detail with actual data.

Your theory that organ systems that are “melted” by cortisol don’t regenerate upon refeeding really isn’t supported by the evidence. The mice in the study showed increased regeneration in their hippocampus after cycles of fasting and refeeding.

I agree that body signals can be mixed up during a fast. One of many reasons why I’ve been saying it’s not a good idea to go too long. 5 days of a fasting mimicking diet is very safe. Tens of thousands of people have done it at this point.

But 40 days seems totally unnecessary, and frankly a bit crazy and potentially dangerous.

Im familiar with superficial claims of fasting,i came along that study before,for me,way too many unknowns.
Only half joking,the hippocampus got better because those rodents need to be reminded more efficiently were the darn food is,
so they dont have to melt away like ice in the sunshine.We dont know about the feelings of those mices,
and those mices werent your average american with brain damage already,but well-nourished mices
with lots of health-reserve.Maybe they felt 'empty' and depressed afterwards?Even vegan-survivors,which are de facto
on some type of fast,have long term issues seemingly like 'anhedonia' and such.

 

[LLight]

For people believing in the COVID19 / tuberculosis connection:

"The classical signal for generalized autophagy is starvation, which can be caused by low levels of amino acids, low energy, or absence of growth factors. Starvation can induce autophagy to kill virulent M. tuberculosis in macrophages (Fig. 2A) (Gutierrez et al. 2004)."

"Pharmacological agonists of autophagy can overcome the ESAT-6-based block (Romagnoli et al. 2012), in keeping with the observations that physiological or immunological stimulation of autophagy (e.g., by starvation or IFN-γ) (Gutierrez et al. 2004; Harris et al. 2007) can kill M. tuberculosis overpowering antiautophagy mechanisms of M. tuberculosis."​

"Whereas in human macrophages calcitriol is required for IFN-γ-induced autophagy (Fabri et al. 2011b), it is not necessary in human macrophages when autophagy is induced by nutritional (starvation) or pharmacological (rapamycin) means (Fabri et al. 2011b)."

"There are further genetic links between autophagy and risks for active tuberculosis. A recent genome-wide association study (GWAS) shows a widespread overlap between genetic risks for inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) and tuberculosis (Jostins et al. 2012). As a subset of these overlaps, genetic polymorphisms in autophagy genes affect both IBD and tuberculosis."

"Autophagy protects in vivo against bacillary burden, inflammation, lung pathology (Fig. 2B,C), and death in transgenic mouse models of M. tuberculosis infection (Castillo et al. 2012; Watson et al. 2012)."

"The above anti-inflammatory action of autophagy may not stop at direct control of intracellular M. tuberculosis and tempering of the IL-1 response (see Fig. 5 for an overall model). We propose a model that extends to potential effects on type I IFN responses."
​

Autophagy in Tuberculosis

 

[Goobz]

Im familiar with superficial claims of fasting,i came along that study before,for me,way too many unknowns.
Only half joking,the hippocampus got better because those rodents need to be reminded more efficiently were the darn food is,
so they dont have to melt away like ice in the sunshine.We dont know about the feelings of those mices,
and those mices werent your average american with brain damage already,but well-nourished mices
with lots of health-reserve.Maybe they felt 'empty' and depressed afterwards?Even vegan-survivors,which are de facto
on some type of fast,have long term issues seemingly like 'anhedonia' and such.

Well, we're not really getting anywhere here, so I'll just say this final thing - if you're interested in actually learning about the science instead of speculating based on incomplete information, just look up Valter Longo.

His lab has done so much research now. Fasting has many, many misconceptions. It is completely different from a dietary choice like being a vegan. It is completely different from caloric restriction. It is completely different from "intermittent fasting" which is really just time restricted eating.

I love watching Longo in interviews, when particular diet gurus attempt to get him to agree with their particular ideology - vegan, keto, high carb, low carb, etc. He's having none of it and just sticks to what the current data shows. And there has been so much data now. Studies of fasting on yeast, mice, bonobos on calorie restriction, people with genetic variants of IGF-1, the mTOR pathway, PKA, studies of historical diets, centenarians' diets in Okinawa, Sardinia, Mollochio, etc etc.

 

[Such_Umami]

Just watched this Valter Longo ted talk. Not new information to me but I just can't get over he was 50 years old when he did this talk.

 

[S.Seneff]

His lab has done so much research now. Fasting has many, many misconceptions. It is completely different from a dietary choice like being a vegan. It is completely different from caloric restriction. It is completely different from "intermittent fasting" which is really just time restricted eating.

If I eat its FMD diet for my last meal every day, isn'it sufficient to have 80 percent of the benefit of the long fasting ?

 

[LLight]

If I eat its FMD diet for my last meal every day, isn'it sufficient to have 80 percent of the benefit of the long fasting ?

Probably not.
FMD is about calorie restriction for short period of time (5 days at a time). It's also protein restricted.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

..what happens with one-of-a-kind tissue like nervous?
It gets culled in this strong ascetic-like dieting we never saw before.
What is the replacement?scar-tissue?
Its all about rescue in CNS,and disturbed energy-availability is consistently deadly to neurons.
Im with Ray Peat on this one.Fasting and disturbed Cellular energetics are even short-time
harmful.

 

[adnan.dabaan]

I didn't drink water since 2018, only milk and orange juice. Does this count as water fasting?

 

[baccheion]

Most efficient way is likely a 24-hour hard dry fast, something much like a 3-day water fast. Another is the 3-day hard dry fast, something that achieves the acidotic crisis of a 9-11 day water fast.

One body builder trick is steadily increasing amounts of protein every 3 days (0.75 g/lb, 1.00 g/lb, and 1.25 g/lb) followed by protein restriction on day 7. Maybe a good cycle to shift in a dry fast?

 

[milkboi]

I didn't drink water since 2018, only milk and orange juice. Does this count as water fasting?

haha. me too since late 2019

 

[Goobz]

If I eat its FMD diet for my last meal every day, isn'it sufficient to have 80 percent of the benefit of the long fasting ?

No, it takes at least 2-3 days for the body to fully switch over metabolism and start the body wide "clean up". Caloric restriction, time restricted eating, keto etc have very different effects, not comparable to periodic full fasting.

..what happens with one-of-a-kind tissue like nervous?
It gets culled in this strong ascetic-like dieting we never saw before.
What is the replacement?scar-tissue?
Its all about rescue in CNS,and disturbed energy-availability is consistently deadly to neurons.
Im with Ray Peat on this one.Fasting and disturbed Cellular energetics are even short-time
harmful.

Once again these questions are answered in the studies - nervous tissue regenerates. We mentioned that above with the hippocampus regenerating, remember. Clearly their brains didn't turn into "scar tissue."

The body builds new cells from stem cells etc, in a completely coordinated and natural program, much like embryonic development, that our bodies haven't experienced since their growth during youth. Because guess what... it's not an "ascetic like diet that we've never seen before" - it's been broadly practiced by long lived populations for hundreds of years, and it is how humans have lived for millions of years.

Of course, it can be dangerous, and people taking advice over the internet are almost always going to do it badly, IMO. That's why the pre made fasting mimicking diets are good, or having supervision from a doctor.

 

[Goobz]

Just watched this Valter Longo ted talk. Not new information to me but I just can't get over he was 50 years old when he did this talk.

Yep it sounds like you're well versed in fasting. Curious as to why you're posting this on the Ray Peat forum however - obviously people here are going to have a very negative stance against it.

Also, man, I really hope you know what you are doing, super, super well, if you're going to do a 40 day fast! Longo says that's quite an extreme amount, and that water only fasting should really only be done in a clinic, since it has so much potential to go wrong. I don't really know how you'd prepare for it, but my guess is you'd have to make sure your diet is super nutritious and load up on minerals and vitamins weeks in advance.

All the best!

 

[Such_Umami]

I thought I'd provide my first update (encase people started to think I died). I had an interesting revelation, basically the body uses the most toxic ***t first to get it out the body when it metabolises fat, for instance it's widely known around here that PUFAs get used up before saturated fats. I always wondered how the body does this and I realised that it does it because the cells prioritize tasty food and PUFA foods and basically junk food is very tasty so your cells will prioritize that first. It also answered my long standing question about why bad food tastes so good, it's a survival mechanism and a priority system within the body to figure out what is best to burn and what's best to hold onto.

Though I've fasted many times before, this is my first salt water fast. I am not going back! It's just so much easier and especially emotional issues are so much easier to deal with, they're almost flowing out of me during my sleep (and it's the best I've slept the best on a fast). Last night I had what seemed like a boss fight with a demon that had been plaguing me for years, he wasn't intimidating, a very weak person but was the master of illusions and would dangle anything which would distract me in order to get my attention so I could be controlled. He used my dreams and desires to do this. During this dream I decided not to pay any attention to the drama that was unfolding around me, I decided to walk away from it and not let anyone distract me, it was like I was on a film set and the drama playing infront of me was designed to make me play a roll in it but I just walked off the film set through a door. I went through this door and into a hallway where I had to find a way out, the music on the film set and distractions tried to pull me back but I kept going. I went through another door and into a lobby; this was when the demon came to me. I said hi and he said, you are damn near undefeatable. I then traced a daoist banishment sigil over him and he blew away with a very blood curdling scream.

 

[Such_Umami]

Yep it sounds like you're well versed in fasting. Curious as to why you're posting this on the Ray Peat forum however - obviously people here are going to have a very negative stance against it.


Also, man, I really hope you know what you are doing, super, super well, if you're going to do a 40 day fast! Longo says that's quite an extreme amount, and that water only fasting should really only be done in a clinic, since it has so much potential to go wrong. I don't really know how you'd prepare for it, but my guess is you'd have to make sure your diet is super nutritious and load up on minerals and vitamins weeks in advance.

All the best!

Thanks man. Yeah, I used RP stuff to build a very good nutritional base to jump off of. I also started to dislike fasting but after doing RP for a while it made me come to the conclusion that it's an essential element, this is because my body was getting clogged up, I could feel it everywhere and it wasn't nice. Nutrients aren't everything, many poisons are essentially nutrients. Some people eat extremely low nutritional diets their whole lives and are surprisingly well. It doesn't mean that they couldn't be better but a person eating little nutrients for 40 years would have less than someone who ate nutritiously but fasted for 40 days.

 

[michael94]

I thought I'd provide my first update (encase people started to think I died). I had an interesting revelation, basically the body uses the most toxic ***t first to get it out the body when it metabolises fat, for instance it's widely known around here that PUFAs get used up before saturated fats. I always wondered how the body does this and I realised that it does it because the cells prioritize tasty food and PUFA foods and basically junk food is very tasty so your cells will prioritize that first. It also answered my long standing question about why bad food tastes so good, it's a survival mechanism and a priority system within the body to figure out what is best to burn and what's best to hold onto.

Though I've fasted many times before, this is my first salt water fast. I am not going back! It's just so much easier and especially emotional issues are so much easier to deal with, they're almost flowing out of me during my sleep (and it's the best I've slept the best on a fast). Last night I had what seemed like a boss fight with a demon that had been plaguing me for years, he wasn't intimidating, a very weak person but was the master of illusions and would dangle anything which would distract me in order to get my attention so I could be controlled. He used my dreams and desires to do this. During this dream I decided not to pay any attention to the drama that was unfolding around me, I decided to walk away from it and not let anyone distract me, it was like I was on a film set and the drama playing infront of me was designed to make me play a roll in it but I just walked off the film set through a door. I went through this door and into a hallway where I had to find a way out, the music on the film set and distractions tried to pull me back but I kept going. I went through another door and into a lobby; this was when the demon came to me. I said hi and he said, you are damn near undefeatable. I then traced a daoist banishment sigil over him and he blew away with a very blood curdling scream.

nice