40 Day Waterfast, Wish Me Luck!

[milkboi]

I guess that no one can tell because it would depend on the extent of the underlying infection, diversity of the microbiota that causes the issue (if this hypothesis happens to be true).

It can thus only be determined experimentally.

Are you a CFS/ME sufferer?

Okay, thanks.

Yes, I am.

 

[opson123]

I wish I could try this so I didn't have to eat and feel bad all the time, but I just can't get past 2 days of fasting. I bet when you're already really lean it's almost impossible to handle long fasting. All the energy is going to come from your muscles which makes you feel horrible. Or if you're lean, you just need to be really healthy and you can easily push through. Though being healthy makes this kind of long fasting unnecessary in the first place.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

Yes, I was expecting this. I've done RP for over a year and had fantastic benefits from it. The thing I've noticed is that even though the diet is very metabolic, it also creates a lot of metabolic waste and therefore I found I was stagnating on the diet and my health was declining quite quickly in ways different to the regular standard american diet ways. I put on muscle so easily under my RP protocol that I am not worried about any potential loss but after a certain amount of muscle mass gained, it's complete stagnation and I can notice problems arising quite clearly such as increase scalp sebum, increased grey hairs, hair loss and overall more stress (after I plateaued). This is what brought me back to fasting, it is an experiment, one which could be enlightening for me and hopefully others here. I have the hypothesis that this clay which got compacted into my colon after my second 28day fast was what is causing this stagnation. I had incredible health benefits after that 28 day fast, people generally don't believe my age and I attribute that to these fasts. RP's stuff is absolutely perfect for building back but I believe at some point you've got to clear things out of you that your body is unable to deal with whilst undergoing digestion.

Of what type are these toxins and metabolic wasteproducts you are clearing?
How much musclemass you have?
Do you look emaciated like a vegan or are you a buff bodytype?
which known Hollywood actor looks the most like you,facial,and bodytype-like?

 

[LLight]

Okay, thanks.

Yes, I am.

If you are interested by a theory on the role of infections on autoimmunity/CFS, I advise you to read about it on the Amy Proal website and its twitter account:
Interview with neuroscientist Michael VanElzakker: Vagus Nerve, ME/CFS, latent infection and more | Microbe Minded
Login on Twitter

She a researcher, affected by CFS herself, and has made progress by using immunostimulating strategies IIRC.

Paradoxically, under this paradigm, what makes you feel better in the short term is not necessarily what is better for you long term and vice versa. Your immune system fighting microbes may produce bad side effects.

 

[S.Seneff]

How host metabolism impacts on virus pathogenesis
Author links open overlay panelSiva KarthikVaranasi1Barry TRouse12
1
Department of Genome Science and Technology, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN, USA
2
Department of Pathobiology, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN 37996-0845, USA
Available online 16 November 2017.


Redirecting

 

[Such_Umami]

Of what type are these toxins and metabolic wasteproducts you are clearing?
How much musclemass you have?
Do you look emaciated like a vegan or are you a buff bodytype?
which known Hollywood actor looks the most like you,facial,and bodytype-like?

I often get asked if I goto the gym by random people. I am likely one the most athletic 36 year olds in my country, at least 0.1% There's no comparison to my bodytype, it's different. I built it playing basketball and play basketball anarobically in place of lifting weights which I program exactly how a lifter would program his sessions.

 

[Such_Umami]

I wish I could try this so I didn't have to eat and feel bad all the time, but I just can't get past 2 days of fasting. I bet when you're already really lean it's almost impossible to handle long fasting. All the energy is going to come from your muscles which makes you feel horrible. Or if you're lean, you just need to be really healthy and you can easily push through. Though being healthy makes this kind of long fasting unnecessary in the first place.

There is a point where you feel better. At first your tongue covers over with mucus but after it clears away you feel much better. I also found 2 days really difficult at first, almost impossible but it does get easier as long as you build back properly.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

I often get asked if I goto the gym by random people. I am likely one the most athletic 36 year olds in my country, at least 0.1% There's no comparison to my bodytype, it's different. I built it playing basketball and play basketball anarobically in place of lifting weights which I program exactly how a lifter would program his sessions.

are you asked because you are so defined,sculpted,and/or size of muscle mass,how is there no comparison to your bodytype.
Any known dude which you could post that seems to be comparable?

 

[LLight]

How host metabolism impacts on virus pathogenesis
Author links open overlay panelSiva KarthikVaranasi1Barry TRouse12
1
Department of Genome Science and Technology, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN, USA
2
Department of Pathobiology, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN 37996-0845, USA
Available online 16 November 2017.


Redirecting

From the paper they referenced ("proving" that exogenous glucose is needed regarding viral infection):
"Here, we report that, whereas nutritional supplementation increased mortality of Listeria monocytogenes infection, it protected against lethality of influenza virus infection. The causative component of food was determined to be glucose, and this effect was largely independent of inflammation or pathogen burden. To study the differential effects of glucose metabolism in bacterial and viral inflammation and sepsis generally, we utilized lipopolysaccharide (LPS) and poly(I:C) models of sepsis and found that, whereas therapeutic blockade of glucose utilization with 2-deoxy-D-glucose (2DG) protected against LPS-mediated sepsis, it was uniformly lethal with poly(I:C) sepsis. We found that, whereas glucose was necessary for adaptation to and survival from the stress of antiviral inflammation by preventing initiation of endoplasmic reticulum (ER) stress-mediated apoptotic pathways, glucose prevented adaptation to the stress of bacterial inflammation by inhibiting ketogenesis, which was necessary for limiting reactive oxygen species (ROS) induced by anti-bacterial inflammation."

They used a model to study viral infection. Why?
Would mice be infected in the first place if they were fasting?
Ketogenic diet helps tame flu virus

And from the paper itself:
"Another potential approach to strengthen immunityagainst multiple viruses could be to augment the expres-sion and activity of Hypoxia inducible factor 1a (HIF-1a)."
I also wonder if ketosis could not induce HIF-1a.
Ketosis May Promote Brain Macroautophagy by Activating Sirt1 and Hypoxia-Inducible factor-1 - PubMed

 

[S.Seneff]

Did you drink coffee ?

 

[Goobz]

If you are interested by a theory on the role of infections on autoimmunity/CFS, I advise you to read about it on the Amy Proal website and its twitter account:
Interview with neuroscientist Michael VanElzakker: Vagus Nerve, ME/CFS, latent infection and more | Microbe Minded
Login on Twitter

She a researcher, affected by CFS herself, and has made progress by using immunostimulating strategies IIRC.

Paradoxically, under this paradigm, what makes you feel better in the short term is not necessarily what is better for you long term and vice versa. Your immune system fighting microbes may produce bad side effects.

I'm sure you guys are aware of this if you've looked into fasting, but I feel compelled to add this for any newbies:

Fasting rejuvenates the immune system, but that's after the period of fasting, during the refeeding.

But during the fast a huge amount of your existing white blood cells actually die off. This is clearly necessary, if they're going to be replaced. But it suggests that during the fast itself, depending on the infection / microbe, it may be immunosuppressive and may actually exacerbate the infections in the short term. Therefore people usually recommend you don't fast if you're experiencing an infection, and wait till its resolved first before fasting.

Long term, cycles of fasting make you more resilient to infections, by tilting the immune system in a direction that more closely resembles youth.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

From the paper they referenced ("proving" that exogenous glucose is needed regarding viral infection):
"Here, we report that, whereas nutritional supplementation increased mortality of Listeria monocytogenes infection, it protected against lethality of influenza virus infection. The causative component of food was determined to be glucose, and this effect was largely independent of inflammation or pathogen burden. To study the differential effects of glucose metabolism in bacterial and viral inflammation and sepsis generally, we utilized lipopolysaccharide (LPS) and poly(I:C) models of sepsis and found that, whereas therapeutic blockade of glucose utilization with 2-deoxy-D-glucose (2DG) protected against LPS-mediated sepsis, it was uniformly lethal with poly(I:C) sepsis. We found that, whereas glucose was necessary for adaptation to and survival from the stress of antiviral inflammation by preventing initiation of endoplasmic reticulum (ER) stress-mediated apoptotic pathways, glucose prevented adaptation to the stress of bacterial inflammation by inhibiting ketogenesis, which was necessary for limiting reactive oxygen species (ROS) induced by anti-bacterial inflammation."

They used a model to study viral infection. Why?
Would mice be infected in the first place if they were fasting?
Ketogenic diet helps tame flu virus

And from the paper itself:
"Another potential approach to strengthen immunityagainst multiple viruses could be to augment the expres-sion and activity of Hypoxia inducible factor 1a (HIF-1a)."
I also wonder if ketosis could not induce HIF-1a.
Ketosis May Promote Brain Macroautophagy by Activating Sirt1 and Hypoxia-Inducible factor-1 - PubMed

Are they saying that Glucose-availability protects against the neg consequences of immunity against viral-disorder,in opposition
to exposure to negative consequences from Glucose-availability in bacterial-disorder?
If so,should we maintain Glucose loading and maintenance for that programming of supposed nCov2 viral-type infection?
Seems that way,and going keto for bacterial infection?
(i wouldnt advise to switch diet-programming during the course of severe illness,maybe in anticipation,if experience with the changed
diet regimen was had.).

 

[Such_Umami]

are you asked because you are so defined,sculpted,and/or size of muscle mass,how is there no comparison to your bodytype.
Any known dude which you could post that seems to be comparable?

I would say both but it's more about the connection of muscle. People that lift look unconnected, like they isolate each body part, even people who compound lift have a certain type of physique. If you were to press me, I'd say a bigger version of bruce lee but our bodies are also different in that I have more pec and lower body development and he has more trap/back, he's also leaner than me whereas I'm around 10-12% bodyfat. However, he has a connected look.

 

[Such_Umami]

.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

I'm sure you guys are aware of this if you've looked into fasting, but I feel compelled to add this for any newbies:

Fasting rejuvenates the immune system, but that's after the period of fasting, during the refeeding.

But during the fast a huge amount of your existing white blood cells actually die off. This is clearly necessary, if they're going to be replaced. But it suggests that during the fast itself, depending on the infection / microbe, it may be immunosuppressive and may actually exacerbate the infections in the short term. Therefore people usually recommend you don't fast if you're experiencing an infection, and wait till its resolved first before fasting.

Long term, cycles of fasting make you more resilient to infections, by tilting the immune system in a direction that more closely resembles youth.

"(during)the fast a huge amount of your existing white blood cells actually die off.". That is the mechanism in my opinion:
weakening of the immunesystem feels like health,because immune-disordered have too much neg auto immunity.
Maybe Blood-Donation?
And fasting during severely heightened chance of contracting an metabolically expensive disease mediated by infectious material isnt safe.We can fast (starvation) after all this SARS2 programming is over.

 

[LLight]

I'm sure you guys are aware of this if you've looked into fasting, but I feel compelled to add this for any newbies:

Fasting rejuvenates the immune system, but that's after the period of fasting, during the refeeding.

But during the fast a huge amount of your existing white blood cells actually die off. This is clearly necessary, if they're going to be replaced. But it suggests that during the fast itself, depending on the infection / microbe, it may be immunosuppressive and may actually exacerbate the infections in the short term. Therefore people usually recommend you don't fast if you're experiencing an infection, and wait till its resolved first before fasting.

Long term, cycles of fasting make you more resilient to infections, by tilting the immune system in a direction that more closely resembles youth.

If I remember correctly, it was around 30% of white blood cells that are removed to be replaced later, after the refeeding as you mentioned.
What if these cells are senescent? I had posted an article recently that was saying that cytokine storms could be due to immune cells that can not do their jobs.

Why so stormy? What lies behind cytokine storm syndrome?

Why does the immune system overreact in cytokine storm syndrome? One clue came in a “really lovely paper” by Australian researchers in 2015, Cron said. They took normal natural killer cells and CD8 cytotoxic T-cells, along with version of these cells that were perforin deficient. Then “they did time-lapse photography at the cellular level” as these cells engaged with infected cells, Cron explained. The cells with perforin deficiencies “spent five times longer engaged” and released a flurry of cytokines, even though their lack of perforin made them incapable of destroying their target cell. One hypothesis is that these signals could spark the intense inflammatory response seen in cytokine storm syndrome.

Here’s a playbook for stopping deadly cytokine storm syndrome​

Maybe the removal of these immune cells is beneficial in all cases.

Regarding immunosuppression, I'm not sure either, but I think that during fasting immunity goes from adaptive to innate predominantly. That might be logical when you consider what has been said above.

Fasting, especially dry, could activate the NFAT5 trasncription factor that is an important regulator of the immune system:

Similarity between the Marshall Protocol and dry fasting/dehydration:

Dry fasting/dehydration could help stimulate the immune system:

1. Dry fasting/dehydration may induce the secretion of oxytocin and vasopressin, two hormones involved in fluid retention/balance, which also seem to regulate the immune system or even have "antibiotic-like effects".
   
   
2. Dehydration may stimulate the production of the cathelicidin antimicrobial peptide (CAMP) in macrophages. This molecule has antibiotic properties and seems to be able to disrupt biofilms, structures that bacteria produce to escape the immune system.
   
   
3. NFAT5, a protein that tends to be upregulated, among other things, by hyperosmotic stress (that could be elicited by dehydration), seems to be involved in the proper targeting of bacteria by autophagy.
   
   
4. A deficiency of this same protein has been involved in autoimmune diseases (1, 2) which are, according to these publications and the Marshall protocol, nothing more than the consequences of immunodeficiency allowing pathogens to survive.
   
   
5. The NFAT5 protein itself seems to have antiviral properties against Coxsackievirus B3. This virus tries to deactivate the NFAT5 protein. I would not be surprised, knowing the importance of this protein, if other pathogens would try to suppress it too.
   
   
6. NFAT5 (also called TonEBP in the literature) seems to suppress the expression of the HO-1 enzyme in macrophages. HO-1 has a "well-established immunosuppressive activity". Interestingly, HO-1 inhibition could be a potential therapeutic strategy for metabolic disease.

Moreover, following dehydration (in mice, NFAT5 involved again), the CYP3A4 enzyme seems to be upregulated several folds in the liver (1, 2). This enzyme appears to be involved in the catabolism of vitamin D which "has multiple immunosuppressant properties".

NFAT5-sensitive Orai1 Expression and Store-Operated Ca 2+ Entry in Megakaryocytes

"The transcription factor nuclear factor of activated T cells 5 (NFAT5) is up-regulated in several clinical disorders, including dehydration."

"Platelets and megakaryocytes were isolated from wild-type mice with either access to water ad libitum or dehydration by 36 h of water deprivation."

"In the mice, dehydration increased NFAT5 and Orai1 protein abundance in megakaryocytes and NFAT5, Orai1, and Orai2 abundance in platelets. Dehydration further augmented the degranulation and integrin activation by thrombin and collagen-related peptide. In summary, NFAT5 is a powerful regulator of Orai1-expression and SOCE in megakaryocytes."

Emerging roles of store-operated Ca2+ entry through STIM and ORAI proteins in immunity, hemostasis and cancer

"The role of SOCE in immunity to infection is underlined by the severe, recurrent infections with viral, bacterial, and fungal pathogens affecting patients with mutations in ORAI1 and STIM1 genes that abolish SOCE.42,43 Patients are susceptible to chronic and recurrent viral infections, especially with herpes viruses such as cytomegalovirus (CMV), Epstein Barr virus (EBV) and human herpes virus (HHV) 8.44-46 SOCE is impaired in cells of both the innate and adaptive immune system in these patients, and defective immune responses by both systems are likely to contribute to their immunodeficiency."

"NK cells are cytotoxic lymphocytes that are essential for immune responses against many viral infections and antitumor immunity. Intriguingly, ORAI1- and STIM1-deficient NK cells from patients showed impaired cytokine production, failed to exocytose cytotoxic granules and were unable to lyse tumor target cells when coincubated in vitro.46,51 Consistent with these findings, NK cells from Orai1KI/KI mice also showed reduced degranulation and cytotoxic function in vitro (SF, unpublished data)."

"Pathogens sequestered within phagosomes of macrophages and neutrophils are killed following fusion of phagosomes with lysosomes. The phagosomal production of reactive oxygen species (ROS) by NADPH oxidase is dependent on SOCE."

Platelets: essential components of the immune system

"Platelets interact with bacteria, viruses, fungi and protozoa and demonstrate anti-microbial functions."

"Upon contact with certain bacteria, platelets can become activated, aggregate and degranulate. Activated platelets release over 300 known secretory products including anti-microbial products (collectively known as platelet microbicidal proteins (PMPs))."

"Recently, a study demonstrated the expression of β defensin 1 in human platelets and its novel antibacterial activity [21]. It was observed that activated platelets surround Staphylococcus aureus and force the pathogens into clusters which reduce growth rate. Platelet-derived β defensin 1 not only impaired the growth of S. aureus, but also triggered neutrophil extracellular trap (NET) formation."

"In addition to the anti-microbial mechanisms as discussed above, platelets can internalize bacteria and viruses. Specifically, platelets have been shown to engulf S. aureus and human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) thus promoting pathogen clearance from blood stream and tissues [22]. In fact, platelets are capable of not only internalizing targets but also the killing of various internalized bacterial species including Escherichia coli and S. aureus [23, 24]. Whether this entitles platelets a potential phagocytic role needs further investigation. Furthermore, platelets generate and release hydrogen peroxide and other reactive oxygen species to mediate other anti-microbial effects in response to stimuli."

From my limited understanding, these elements suggest that dehydration could increase NFAT5 in immune cells (at least platelets here) and then ORAI1 and SOCE which seem to be necessary for an efficient immune response. Platelets are recognized more and more for being able to fight pathogens directly or influencing the other immune cells.

Deuterium Depletion as a Possible New Strategy to Combat SARS-CoV-2

"Considering all available data on the effect of deuterium depletion on cell function and metabolism, and over 20 years’ experience with Vetera-DDW-25 deuterium-depleted veterinary medicinal anti-cancer product, which showed anti-viral effect of deuterium depletion in pets"

Mitochondrial deuterium depletion restrains prokaryote proliferation and virus hosting cellular events thus may alleviate the use of biologics

Burn (saturated) fat, create water, drink less and be immune?

 

[Goobz]

"(during)the fast a huge amount of your existing white blood cells actually die off.". That is the mechanism in my opinion:
weakening of the immunesystem feels like health,because immune-disordered have too much neg auto immunity.
Maybe Blood-Donation?
And fasting during severely heightened chance of contracting an metabolically expensive disease mediated by infectious material isnt safe.We can fast (starvation) after all this SARS2 programming is over.

I agree that now may not be the best time to attempt a fast, with a new virus going around. Too many unknowns for me personally.

That being said, the effects of fasting go far beyond "weakening of the immune system feels like health." The study I posted, and I'm sure other material posted by others here, shows a rejuvenation of the immune system with cycles of fasting, not a weakening.

 

[Goobz]

If I remember correctly, it was around 30% of white blood cells that are removed to be replaced later, after the refeeding as you mentioned.
What if these cells are senescent? I had posted an article recently that was saying that cytokine storms could be due to immune cells that can not do their jobs.

Why so stormy? What lies behind cytokine storm syndrome?

Why does the immune system overreact in cytokine storm syndrome? One clue came in a “really lovely paper” by Australian researchers in 2015, Cron said. They took normal natural killer cells and CD8 cytotoxic T-cells, along with version of these cells that were perforin deficient. Then “they did time-lapse photography at the cellular level” as these cells engaged with infected cells, Cron explained. The cells with perforin deficiencies “spent five times longer engaged” and released a flurry of cytokines, even though their lack of perforin made them incapable of destroying their target cell. One hypothesis is that these signals could spark the intense inflammatory response seen in cytokine storm syndrome.

Here’s a playbook for stopping deadly cytokine storm syndrome​

Maybe the removal of these immune cells is beneficial in all cases.

Regarding immunosuppression, I'm not sure either, but I think that during fasting immunity goes from adaptive to innate predominantly. That might be logical when you consider what has been said above.

Fasting, especially dry, could activate the NFAT5 trasncription factor that is an important regulator of the immune system:

Very interesting! Will read these, thanks.

I think you could well be right about it helping certain infections, but my guess is it depends on the infection. "Sickness behaviour" in animals, where they avoid food when sick, seems to be common in nature at least. I vaguely remember a theory that fasting helped bacterial infections, but not others. So it seems to be a bit of pot luck to me, which doesn't fill me with confidence. Calorie restriction lead to weakened immunity, despite having benefical effects on diabetes, CVD, cancer, etc. I could be being overly cautious.

Definitely a good point re: cytokines and excessive inflammation. Longo has stated many times that it's "quite clear" that aging and cellular dysfunction are the cause of inflammation, not vice versa. So an intervention like a fast that addresses many of the aging processes on a cellular level, is going to be beneficial for the immune system and any condition associated with a misfiring immune system.

 

[LLight]

"Sickness behaviour" in animals, where they avoid food when sick, seems to be common in nature at least. I vaguely remember a theory that fasting helped bacterial infections, but not others. So it seems to be a bit of pot luck to me, which doesn't fill me with confidence.

Lack of hunger seems to be a common symptom of a corona virus infection.

Regarding the effect on bacterial/viral infections, that's what was discussed above with the publication posted by S.Seneff.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

Very interesting! Will read these, thanks.

I think you could well be right about it helping certain infections, but my guess is it depends on the infection. "Sickness behaviour" in animals, where they avoid food when sick, seems to be common in nature at least. I vaguely remember a theory that fasting helped bacterial infections, but not others. So it seems to be a bit of pot luck to me, which doesn't fill me with confidence. Calorie restriction lead to weakened immunity, despite having benefical effects on diabetes, CVD, cancer, etc. I could be being overly cautious.

Definitely a good point re: cytokines and excessive inflammation. Longo has stated many times that it's "quite clear" that aging and cellular dysfunction are the cause of inflammation, not vice versa. So an intervention like a fast that addresses many of the aging processes on a cellular level, is going to be beneficial for the immune system and any condition associated with a misfiring immune system.

"aging and cellular dysfunction are the cause of inflammation, not vice versa"

That is interesting.I believe it is both,and it starts with undue inflammation,which causes cellular dysfunction,which causes aging and
inflammation and so on and so forth.
I do not believe that we eat too much or too often,but the wrong types,like omega6 to omega3 ratio,ubiquitous Vitamin D deficiency,
lack of movement or too much('bodybuilding' type of workout),and much much more.
One huge issue and almost amateurish with this type of thinking and the associated personality types in reseach is
neglect of non or less than optimal regenerating type of tissue,like CNS.Consider a damaged Neuron,which needs help and rest,
gets the stress treatment,rejuvenation comes after distress,but if the celltype isnt regenerating though..