4 Months At 3 Grains Thiroyd And No Effect. What Should I Do

Queequeg

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Hi, I have all the typical hypo symptoms and a TSH of 2.6. As my title says I have been ramping up on Thiroyd from PimPom for the last 4 months, currently at 3 grains, and haven't noticed any impact on temp or other symptoms. My waking temp has been consistently in the low 97s. HR hasn't budged from high 50s.
I am wondering if I should try another brand or if this is common and I should stick it out. I did notice I can get Naturethroid without a script and have read some good reviews.
 

Vanced

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I didn't get anywhere with NDT, it didn't raise my t4 high enough. The longer I stayed on it the worse things got really.

Have you tried just using T4 and T3?
 

Velve921

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Hi, I have all the typical hypo symptoms and a TSH of 2.6. As my title says I have been ramping up on Thiroyd from PimPom for the last 4 months, currently at 3 grains, and haven't noticed any impact on temp or other symptoms. My waking temp has been consistently in the low 97s. HR hasn't budged from high 50s.
I am wondering if I should try another brand or if this is common and I should stick it out. I did notice I can get Naturethroid without a script and have read some good reviews.

In my experience, if sugar intake is inadequate then thyroid function will not work well. Initially it took me 500-600 grams of sugar a day to see changes. Orange juice has been the most beneficial thus far.

Caffeine + cane sugar + coconut oil 99% of the time raises temp and heart rate into normal range for myself.

If you workout excessively and/or under eat total calories then HR/Temp will be low as well.
 
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i've taken every type of thyroid but never had much effect at all. T3, T4, NDT including Tyromax. I've quite thyroid for the fourth time.

I think some of us need to build up our metabolism other ways. I've taken tons of sugar, coconut oil etc.

The thing that's made a difference for me is red lights. That raises my temperatures. I've also made sure to be much warmer when sleeping which has helped. Androsterone and Pansterone has been helping a bit too, I think.

I also think that it will be a year for me since I've been off PUFAs, in December, and it may just take some of us a lot longer. I have a lot of "metabolic inertia" and don't respond much to most things (fortunately really.)
 
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Queequeg

Queequeg

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I didn't get anywhere with NDT, it didn't raise my t4 high enough. The longer I stayed on it the worse things got really.

Have you tried just using T4 and T3?
No I haven't yet. I saw a pubmed study reporting that people reported better results on NDT and wanted to try a somewhat more natural supplement.
In my experience, if sugar intake is inadequate then thyroid function will not work well. Initially it took me 500-600 grams of sugar a day to see changes. Orange juice has been the most beneficial thus far.

Caffeine + cane sugar + coconut oil 99% of the time raises temp and heart rate into normal range for myself.

If you workout excessively and/or under eat total calories then HR/Temp will be low as well.
I've definitely upped my sugar intake but unfortunately saw my blood sugar rise from 90 to 104. I am a little scared of adding any more. I know its RP approved but 500-600 grams of sugar just blows my mind.
I am drinking OJ, coffee, and eating coconut oil though.

i've taken every type of thyroid but never had much effect at all. T3, T4, NDT including Tyromax. I've quite thyroid for the fourth time.

I think some of us need to build up our metabolism other ways. I've taken tons of sugar, coconut oil etc.

The thing that's made a difference for me is red lights. That raises my temperatures. I've also made sure to be much warmer when sleeping which has helped. Androsterone and Pansterone has been helping a bit too, I think.

I also think that it will be a year for me since I've been off PUFAs, in December, and it may just take some of us a lot longer. I have a lot of "metabolic inertia" and don't respond much to most things (fortunately really.)
I just got a red light last week. 250 w brooder that I have mounted about 3 feet above my head. It definitely warms my head at least. I too have started to wear more stuff while sleeping.
 
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Queequeg

Queequeg

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After some poking around I have found on STTM that NDT will not work if your iron levels are low or if your adrenals are messed up e.g. cortisol is too low or high.
"Patients discovered It (NDT non response) is usually from having inadequate levels of iron and/or a cortisol problem! The latter two can promote too much of the inactive RT3 (reverse T3) or cause pooling (T3 going high in the blood and not making it to our cells). The latter can cause adrenaline excess!"
Iron and hypothyroidism - Stop The Thyroid Madness
How Adrenals Can Wreak Havoc - Stop The Thyroid Madness


I actually have both problems:
My iron tests are
IRON SER: 94 (40 - 190 mcg/dL) STTM Target upper 130s
TOTAL IRON BIND CAP: 450 (250 - 400 mcg/dl)STTM lower 1/4 of range
TRANSFERRIN SATURATION: 23.20% (15.0 - 50.0 %)STTM 38%-45%
TRANSFERRIN: 289 (180 - 329 mg/dl)
FERRITIN: 32.5 (20.0 - 380.0 ng/mL) STTM 70-90

Though low iron is generally good according to RP I think I may be too low (definitely by STTM targets) and am thinking of supplementing to see if this improves my NDT response.

My Salivary Cortisol is typically low in the morning and high at night
DHEAS (saliva): 6.8 (4-13 ng/ml)
Cortisol (saliva)(morning): 3.8 (3.7-9.5 ng.ml)
Cortisol (saliva)(noon): 2.2 (1.2-3.0 ng.ml)
Cortisol (saliva)(evening): 2.3 (0.6-1.9 ng.ml)
Cortisol (saliva)(night): 0.7 (0.4-1.0 ng.ml)
Improving my adrenals seem to be a more difficult process.
However I understand RP thinks the adrenals come back on their own with thyroid supplementation.
"Thyroid is needed for the adrenals to function well, and adequate cholesterol, as raw material. It's popular to talk about "weak adrenals," but the adrenal cortex regenerates very well. Animal experimenters can make animals that lack the adrenal medulla by scooping out everything inside the adrenal capsule, and the remaining cells quickly regenerate the steroid producing tissues, the cortex. So I think the "low adrenal" people are simply low thyroid, or deficient in cholesterol or nutrients." R.P.

Has anyone had any experience with low iron and/or adrenal issues?
Does this STTM guidance make sense?
 
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Velve921

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Aspirin and/or Niacinamide can assist with blood sugar regulation as they lower free fatty acids in the blood; if blood sugar is rising then insulin sensitivity could be problematic if fatty acid oxidation is a preferred source of energy.
 

Vanced

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No I haven't yet. I saw a pubmed study reporting that people reported better results on NDT and wanted to try a somewhat more natural supplement.

I see what you are saying but synthetic t4 and t3 is identical to what the body produces, NDT is ground up pig thyroid which doesn't feel very natural to me.
I wasted a lot of time (and money) buying lots of different brands of NDT, none of them worked for me, some people appear to be well on them though.
 
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NDT 'worked' for me in the sense that it lowered my TSH and fixed my labs. I didn't really feel better on it though.
The problem with NDT is that the animal hormones are bound to thyroglobulin and unless that bound is broken the hormones are pretty much inactive. This gives the body a very easy way out if it doesn't want to increase metabolism for whatever reason.
When you take synthetic T4 and T3, you take 'free' hormones. They cannot be (very easily) inactivated.
Cynomel / synthetic T3 is the only thing that can raise my pulse within 30 minutes of taking it.
 
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Queequeg

Queequeg

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Aspirin and/or Niacinamide can assist with blood sugar regulation as they lower free fatty acids in the blood; if blood sugar is rising then insulin sensitivity could be problematic if fatty acid oxidation is a preferred source of energy.
I started in aspirin a few weeks ago. Hopefully that will do it.

I see what you are saying but synthetic t4 and t3 is identical to what the body produces, NDT is ground up pig thyroid which doesn't feel very natural to me.
I wasted a lot of time (and money) buying lots of different brands of NDT, none of them worked for me, some people appear to be well on them though.
NDT 'worked' for me in the sense that it lowered my TSH and fixed my labs. I didn't really feel better on it though.
The problem with NDT is that the animal hormones are bound to thyroglobulin and unless that bound is broken the hormones are pretty much inactive. This gives the body a very easy way out if it doesn't want to increase metabolism for whatever reason.
When you take synthetic T4 and T3, you take 'free' hormones. They cannot be (very easily) inactivated.
Cynomel / synthetic T3 is the only thing that can raise my pulse within 30 minutes of taking it.

I appreciate the feedback and realize that many have done well with synthetic but also many others do well with NDT. In addition to T3 and T4, NDT contains many other cofactors including T2, T1, calcitonin and others not yet recognized. Science has a bad history of screwing up the benefits from natural foods by trying to find the magic molecule. To me its like smoking marijuana vs taking a THC pill or eating an orange vs taking ascorbic acid.

I may eventually switch to synthetic but I really want to see if I can get the NDT to work and maybe my low iron or high cortisol could be the reason for a non response. This seems to be a common reason for hypos over at STTM.
 
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Queequeg

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No I never did but given the info about RT3 pooling I am thinking it may be time for another test. Thank you for the link that has some great info on it.

I'm another NDT drop-out, but I understand the need to see something through.

Have you tried pregnenolone? In this thread: Pregnenolone Does Not Boost Cortisol, It Lowers It By 60%
haidut states that pregnenolone and progesterone can normalize cortisol (lower it if too high, raise it to normal levels if too low).
I will look into pregnenolone. It sounds interesting.
 
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Queequeg

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Here is a nice long debate over iron requirements for thyroid function.
Iron Not Only Bad In Excess, But Also Bad In Deficiency?

This study is illustrative of the data for this claim
Evidence for thyroid hormone deficiency in iron-deficient anemic rats. - PubMed - NCBI

"decreased rates of T3 production in iron-deficient anemic rats, as documented by turnover studies, may be related to decreased deiodinase activity and reduced peripheral formation of T3. The dampened TSH responses to TRH further facilitate or perpetuate this T3 deficiency. We propose that this abnormal thyroid state is partially responsible for impaired thermogenesis in iron-deficiency anemia."
 
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marsaday

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Your cortisol profile is typical of low thyroid function. It is a decreasing curve through the day, but the starting amount of cortisol is to low. DHEA is low in range as well.

I am a thyroid patient and have done most stuff with thyroid. It is much better to use T4/T3 as you can tailor a specific ratio to suit your body. Most people should try T4 first then T4/T3, then NTH then T3 only if each system does not work. NTH is better for people who have had the thyroid removed due to thyroid cancer etc.

You don't want to be suppressing the TSH level because this helps with conversion of the T4 to T3. Your tsh was low at 2.6, but that doesn't mean you don't need thyroid. What were your FT4 and 3 ?

I imagine you need less thyroid meds overall and need to look into the timing of the thyroid. Start taking the T4 4 h's before bedtime. You will be replicating what the body does. We made thyroid when we go to bed, so taking it before bed means you are supplying the hormone at the natural time. T3 at bedtime is ok for some, but more people stay awake with this. So T3 in the morning is the usual way to take that. Again you can see using NTH gives you a problem. Much better to switch to T4/T3.

Also very small doses of T3 work much better than bigger ones. NTH has too much T3 in it. You want to be looking at using T3 in a low ratio. something like 98:2. Eg 100 T4 and 2mcg T3.

Have a read of Dr Ken blanchers book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Functional-Approach-Hypothyroidism-Traditional-Alternative/dp/1578263875

He advocates much lower levels of T3 usage and taking the T4 at evening meal time.

You may well need a higher T3 amount having said all that, but better blood data would help guide you. The thing with thyroid is that we are all different. One method does not suit all.

Iron does need to be higher if low and this impacts thyroid absorption as STTM says. Low B12 has a similar effect as does Vitamin D. These areas want to be covered before you run on thyroid hormones.

Cortisol can be boosted as well using pregnenalone or progesterone. I have found progesterone really made a big impact on how my body uses the thyroid hormones. It really improved things.

It can be a journey to getting a better health balance. You need to look at many aspects. Just increasing thyroid meds does not usually make you better. You can miss your sweet spot and hurtle past it. You want to compliment what your body does and work in tandem with its feedback system (TSH).

Good luck and get on the T4/T3 as the first starting point. 3 grains = 108 T4 and 27 T3. You need blood testing, but i would switch to 100 T4 at dinner time and 5mcg T3 taken in the morning.
 

ilovethesea

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Also very small doses of T3 work much better than bigger ones. NTH has too much T3 in it. You want to be looking at using T3 in a low ratio. something like 98:2. Eg 100 T4 and 2mcg T3.

Have a read of Dr Ken blanchers book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Functional-Approach-Hypothyroidism-Traditional-Alternative/dp/1578263875

He advocates much lower levels of T3 usage and taking the T4 at evening meal time.

You may well need a higher T3 amount having said all that, but better blood data would help guide you. The thing with thyroid is that we are all different. One method does not suit all.

Iron does need to be higher if low and this impacts thyroid absorption as STTM says. Low B12 has a similar effect as does Vitamin D. These areas want to be covered before you run on thyroid hormones.

Cortisol can be boosted as well using pregnenalone or progesterone. I have found progesterone really made a big impact on how my body uses the thyroid hormones. It really improved things.

Hmm, Ray would disagree with a lot of this.

I've asked him specifically about the ratios and he said most people feel best on a ratio between 4:1 and 2:1 (T4 to T3).

High T4 only works if you convert it well to active T3. Women have more trouble because of their higher estrogen, but many men also have sluggish liver and the excess T4 ends up causing worse hypothyroidism.

Also the free hormone blood tests are not reliable. During my worst hypothyroidism my tests were all "perfect" so I can vouch for that.

Re: iron Iron's Dangers

Pregnenolone steal is a myth. Pregnenolone Does Not Boost Cortisol, It Lowers It By 60%

There is a lot of good info on this page http://www.functionalps.com/blog/20...oid-temperature-pulse-and-tsh/comment-page-1/

"Because the actions of T3 can be inhibited by many factors, including polyunsaturated fatty acids, reverse T3, and excess thyroxine, the absolute level of T3 can’t be used by itself for diagnosis. “Free T3” or “free T4” is a laboratory concept, and the biological activity of T3 doesn’t necessarily correspond to its “freedom” in the test."

"An excess of thyroxine, in a tissue that doesn’t convert it rapidly to T3, has an antithyroid action."
 
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Queequeg

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@marsaday Thanks for the long and thoughtful response.
I am looking into Dr. Blanchard’s work and it does seem very interesting and makes a good case for synthetics.
This quote really caught my eye:
Hypothyroidism, The Many Myths by Kenneth Blanchard, M.D.
“I also disagree with the use of Armour thyroid by itself for the same reason, that it does not contain a physiologic balance of T4 to T3. The human thyroid produces roughly 95% T4 and 5% T3. Armour thyroid is an animal thyroid that contains 80% T4/20% T3. People who take Armour thyroid usually feel better for a short period of time because they were deficient in T3 but, after a period of time, the Armour thyroid will cause a T4-T3 imbalance at tissue level and a variety of undesired symptoms can then develop over time. One can get a better balance by giving some T4 with the Armour.”

I wonder what RP would make of this as he suggests a 1:4 ratio and also thinks the lower the TSH the better.
edit @ilovethesea Thanks for the RP view

My pretreatment thyroid tests are given below.
TSH: 2.87 (0.28 - 4.10 mIU/L)
Total t3: 94 (87 - 178 ng/dL)
total t4: 0.98 (0.61 - 1.64 ng/dL)
FREE THYROXINE INDEX (FTI): 6.34 (4.50 - 13.13 ug/dL)
THYROXINE (T4): 6.5 (4.5 - 12.8 ug/dL)
T3 UPTAKE: 39% (32 - 48 %)
VITAMIN B12: 859 (181 - 914 pg/ml)
VITAMIN D,25-OH,TOTAL: 49 (30-100ng/mL)
 
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Queequeg

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Hmm, Ray would disagree with a lot of this.

I've asked him specifically about the ratios and he said most people feel best on a ratio between 4:1 and 2:1 (T4 to T3).

High T4 only works if you convert it well to active T3. Women have more trouble because of their higher estrogen, but many men also have sluggish liver and the excess T4 ends up causing worse hypothyroidism.

Also the free hormone blood tests are not reliable. During my worst hypothyroidism my tests were all "perfect" so I can vouch for that.

Re: iron Iron's Dangers

Pregnenolone steal is a myth. Pregnenolone Does Not Boost Cortisol, It Lowers It By 60%

There is a lot of good info on this page Ray Peat, PhD on Thyroid, Temperature, Pulse, and TSH – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

"Because the actions of T3 can be inhibited by many factors, including polyunsaturated fatty acids, reverse T3, and excess thyroxine, the absolute level of T3 can’t be used by itself for diagnosis. “Free T3” or “free T4” is a laboratory concept, and the biological activity of T3 doesn’t necessarily correspond to its “freedom” in the test."

"An excess of thyroxine, in a tissue that doesn’t convert it rapidly to T3, has an antithyroid action."

Thanks for the great info and bringing in RP's take on it.
I think the ideal ratio seems to be very dependent on the individual. If your liver can convert T4 to T3 without any issue than a higher ratio of T4/T3 that matches normal thyroid output would make sense. At the other extreme those that can't convert T4 efficiently would obviously need more T3 in the mix.
I'm sure both doctors would agree with that but I find it interesting in how far apart both Ray and Dr. Blanchard are on the ideal starting ratios for the average person. :angeldevil
 
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In my experience taking a lot of T4 at once is making you even more hypothyroid. I used to take 50 mcg in the morning, then when that stopped working 75, 100, and by the time I got to 100 I was worse off than when I started. I know that endocrinologists recommend taking it in the morning on an empty stomach, but that is completely unphysiological. Your body doesn't make 100 mcg of T4 in one sitting. It makes it slowly, during the day, most of it overnight in fact.

I also found it works better when taken at night. When I take T4 in the morning (even small amounts like 25 mcg), and have breakfast afterwards I have a lingering adrenaline feeling in my chest for hours and feel very uncomfortable. If I take it at night I get no such thing.

My experience with T4 so far is that it is also best multi-dosed, for example taking the majority of the dose at night, and then a smaller amount in the afternoon. For example for a total of 75 mcg
I would take 50 mcg before bedtime, and 25 mcg around 6 PM.

T3 works best in pieces of 5 mcg throughout the day for me.
 

sweetpeat

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My experience with T4 so far is that it is also best multi-dosed
This has been my experience as well. But I can't take most of mine at night or I'll be up all night and brain dead all day. I currently split my total dose into 4 and take one with each of the main meals and then the final dose at bedtime. I also found that once I got above about 75mcg, I need to increase in small increments of like 5-6mcg at a time and hold that for a week or more until basal temps stabilize. Otherwise I become too hyper and I'm trying not to overshoot. I was surprised at how sensitive I am to t4. I don't know if that's typical or if it's just me because I was t4 deficient for quite a while. I would like to not have to split it up so much like I do though. Maybe once I reach my optimum dose I will experiment again with timing, making small changes gradually.

I currently take 1-2mcg of t3 early in the day. I've found no benefit from taking higher amounts so I don't see the point. But if I find I need more at a later date I will of course add it in. Peat emphasizes that we often need more t3 as we age, for instance.

Anyway, I share my experience just to emphasize again how individual this thyroid stuff can be. Good luck on your journey, Queequeg!
 

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