2 Years Since I Didn't Come Here: I Healed All Of My Health Problems

[danielbb]

Could you provide examples of your dinner ?

I usually find if I eat to much fruits / sugar for dinner I sleep poorly.

@jet9 - most people can state some substance that bothers them but usually leave out what else they consumed because they have convinced themselves it is the one substance on their mind. Our society has become sick. Lets start with toxins in the food supply: 1) PUFA 2) Iron 3) Soy. Learned these from Ray and believe he is right. Now, since we are an abundant society, with very creative people concocting things, people have learned to mix ingredients and most seem oblivious to the mixture itself. Nobody argues the value of protein as that is what our bodies are constructed from. For energy, there are only two options - fat and carbohydrates. You have your low-carb types (Atkins, keto, Paleo, Primal, low-carb, Volek, etc) who blame sugar and thus limit their carbohydrates to some small value like less than X carbs per day. Low carb systems work to lose fat and restore health because they have eliminated the mixture of sugar and fat. Then, you have your low-fat advocates who blame fat as the problem (e.g., Vegan, low-fat, Essylstyn, Ornish, etc). These systems also work to lose body fat and maintain health. Neither system gets the total point however. Both are highly restrictive diets (one forbids fat and the other forbids sugar) and quite frankly, unsatisfactory and unsustainable in my opinion in the long haul. The point is the mixture itself is inflammatory. Fat is a perfect energy source as long as it's not PUFA and as long as its not mixed with sugar at the same time. Carbohydrates are also a perfect energy source as long as they are not mixed with fat at the same time (e.g., same meal).

How do I know these things? When I came here, I learned how to make things without the toxic ingredients mentioned above and I truly wanted to optimize things so I went hard-core with some of Ray's ideas - namely high doses of orange juice and milk among other things (and milk products like ice cream). I was closely monitoring my calories and working out yet was gaining weight for no apparent reason. I'd gain two or three pounds on the scale overnight and knew that I had not consumed two or three pounds worth of food. I rapidly gained 20 lbs in about 4 weeks and could not for the life of me figure it out. Then, I re-read about the Randle-Cycle and something clicked. They discovered (1963) that when the body has fat as its energy source, it shuts off its ability to burn carbs (like a light switch). It occurred to me that milk is a perfect tween-er substance - a mixture of sugar and fat. Even 1% milk did not stabilize things for me. I got the idea to simply not mix sugar and fat and the weight came off rapidly. Some days, I would go low-carb all day (e.g., high fat). Other days I would go high carb all day (e.g., low fat). Most days, I go low-carb in the morning because I like to load carbs before bed. I discovered by accident that loading carbs (e.g., apple with brown sugar, Mexican Coke) immediately before bed has wonderful hormonal qualities including sleep quality for me. I suspect that as long as sugar and fat are not mixed at the same meal, things are probably ok.

Examples of breakfast: High carb breakfasts include oatmeal, berries, sweet rolls (made with almost zero fat), fruit, juice, etc. Low carb breakfasts, bacon + eggs with a handful of berries because they are low carb. Burgers (no bun to avoid mixing fat/sugar) with onion and brown mustard (seem anabolic for me). Ham, sausage, with eggs as well etc. I've found low carb breakfasts provide a slow-burn of continuous energy which seems to last for hours. High carb breakfasts work fine as well.

Lunch: Usually skip lunch but if I am hungry, carrot, celery, salad, fruit or berries and sometimes meat.

Dinner: Pasta (wheat only pasta from Whole Foods), pizza (wheat only bread dough using no-fat mozzarella and veggy toppings). Sometimes will go low-carb for dinner with dishes like chicken-wings (baked), ribs, burgers, steak - all served with low-carb vegetables. I no longer mix potatoes or rice with the meat and eat them at separate high-carb meals. Still eat French fries but I air-fry them to avoid PUFA. I eat everything a normal American eats but prepare it myself to avoid toxins and plan things to avoid mixing of sugar and fat.

You should only eat what you like to eat and nobody can prescribe that for you. Before concluding that sugar and fruits are a problem, try isolating them from your fat (e.g., by six hours after you've consumed fat) and see if that fixes things before bed. Everyone is different obviously. Fat and sugar can be a lethal combination but most seem to blame sugar. The low-fat people blame fat. Both sides are partly correct in my opinion. I've found sugar, in all its forms to be the most healing substance I know. I've found that as long as PUFA is not involved, fat (mono and saturated) is a satisfying way to get energy from food.

One final note. Their are two competing documentaries on Netflix right now. One called Forks Over Knives where they demonize fat and show many amazing health stories of people who basically get all their energy from carbohydrates. The other is called the Magic Pill. Here they demonize sugar and show all these amazing health stories from people who have gone low carb. Each documentary is almost exactly the same as far as the style of presentation and the health claims they make. One blames fat for all our problems and the other blames sugar. That does not make sense to me because each and in of themselves are healthy sources of energy.

 

[LUH 3417]

@jet9 - most people can state some substance that bothers them but usually leave out what else they consumed because they have convinced themselves it is the one substance on their mind. Our society has become sick. Lets start with toxins in the food supply: 1) PUFA 2) Iron 3) Soy. Learned these from Ray and believe he is right. Now, since we are an abundant society, with very creative people concocting things, people have learned to mix ingredients and most seem oblivious to the mixture itself. Nobody argues the value of protein as that is what our bodies are constructed from. For energy, there are only two options - fat and carbohydrates. You have your low-carb types (Atkins, keto, Paleo, Primal, low-carb, Volek, etc) who blame sugar and thus limit their carbohydrates to some small value like less than X carbs per day. Low carb systems work to lose fat and restore health because they have eliminated the mixture of sugar and fat. Then, you have your low-fat advocates who blame fat as the problem (e.g., Vegan, low-fat, Essylstyn, Ornish, etc). These systems also work to lose body fat and maintain health. Neither system gets the total point however. Both are highly restrictive diets (one forbids fat and the other forbids sugar) and quite frankly, unsatisfactory and unsustainable in my opinion in the long haul. The point is the mixture itself is inflammatory. Fat is a perfect energy source as long as it's not PUFA and as long as its not mixed with sugar at the same time. Carbohydrates are also a perfect energy source as long as they are not mixed with fat at the same time (e.g., same meal).

How do I know these things? When I came here, I learned how to make things without the toxic ingredients mentioned above and I truly wanted to optimize things so I went hard-core with some of Ray's ideas - namely high doses of orange juice and milk among other things (and milk products like ice cream). I was closely monitoring my calories and working out yet was gaining weight for no apparent reason. I'd gain two or three pounds on the scale overnight and knew that I had not consumed two or three pounds worth of food. I rapidly gained 20 lbs in about 4 weeks and could not for the life of me figure it out. Then, I re-read about the Randle-Cycle and something clicked. They discovered (1963) that when the body has fat as its energy source, it shuts off its ability to burn carbs (like a light switch). It occurred to me that milk is a perfect tween-er substance - a mixture of sugar and fat. Even 1% milk did not stabilize things for me. I got the idea to simply not mix sugar and fat and the weight came off rapidly. Some days, I would go low-carb all day (e.g., high fat). Other days I would go high carb all day (e.g., low fat). Most days, I go low-carb in the morning because I like to load carbs before bed. I discovered by accident that loading carbs (e.g., apple with brown sugar, Mexican Coke) immediately before bed has wonderful hormonal qualities including sleep quality for me. I suspect that as long as sugar and fat are not mixed at the same meal, things are probably ok.

Examples of breakfast: High carb breakfasts include oatmeal, berries, sweet rolls (made with almost zero fat), fruit, juice, etc. Low carb breakfasts, bacon + eggs with a handful of berries because they are low carb. Burgers (no bun to avoid mixing fat/sugar) with onion and brown mustard (seem anabolic for me). Ham, sausage, with eggs as well etc. I've found low carb breakfasts provide a slow-burn of continuous energy which seems to last for hours. High carb breakfasts work fine as well.

Lunch: Usually skip lunch but if I am hungry, carrot, celery, salad, fruit or berries and sometimes meat.

Dinner: Pasta (wheat only pasta from Whole Foods), pizza (wheat only bread dough using no-fat mozzarella and veggy toppings). Sometimes will go low-carb for dinner with dishes like chicken-wings (baked), ribs, burgers, steak - all served with low-carb vegetables. I no longer mix potatoes or rice with the meat and eat them at separate high-carb meals. Still eat French fries but I air-fry them to avoid PUFA. I eat everything a normal American eats but prepare it myself to avoid toxins and plan things to avoid mixing of sugar and fat.

You should only eat what you like to eat and nobody can prescribe that for you. Before concluding that sugar and fruits are a problem, try isolating them from your fat (e.g., by six hours after you've consumed fat) and see if that fixes things before bed. Everyone is different obviously. Fat and sugar can be a lethal combination but most seem to blame sugar. The low-fat people blame fat. Both sides are partly correct in my opinion. I've found sugar, in all its forms to be the most healing substance I know. I've found that as long as PUFA is not involved, fat (mono and saturated) is a satisfying way to get energy from food.

One final note. Their are two competing documentaries on Netflix right now. One called Forks Over Knives where they demonize fat and show many amazing health stories of people who basically get all their energy from carbohydrates. The other is called the Magic Pill. Here they demonize sugar and show all these amazing health stories from people who have gone low carb. Each documentary is almost exactly the same as far as the style of presentation and the health claims they make. One blames fat for all our problems and the other blames sugar. That does not make sense to me because each and in of themselves are healthy sources of energy.

So what about protein? Do you eat protein with carbs?

 

[Cirion]

@danielbb

Great post. For the most part I agree.

I have a couple questions I am curious of your thoughts on though. Mixing fats and carbs is worse than either fats alone or carbs alone. On this I agree 100% and I agree this is why either keto or super low fat can seemingly work. (I still think keto is vastly inferior to low fat but that's a debate for another time)

What is your opinion about:

Do we need to eat dietary fat if one has excessive body fat to lose? My personal opinion is that we don't, because we have a huge store of body fat already - but curious to hear your opinion.

What about the research that seems to show that carbs are the preferred energy source for the body compared to fat?

I get that fat can be a great way to reach caloric needs. But do we really "Need" to have dietary fat and if so why? (Kinda related to #1)

My personal thoughts again are that one should probably restrict dietary fat because if you continue to eat it, my own logic dictates that the body would have a harder or more unwillingness to drop body fat stores when an inflow of dietary fat is also incoming on a daily basis. And again, carbs are more energetic and better overall for the body, at least from what I've gathered from research. But that if you're fairly lean, some meals of protein/fat separate from carbs probably have some merit. Again I think context matters (Lean - more dietary fat, Overweight - less dietary fat)

 

[danielbb]

So what about protein? Do you eat protein with carbs?

Yes of course. Protein builds the body whereas fat and sugar (in all its forms) supply energy. Meat is one of the tricky things as far as a protein source. Remember I am speaking for myself alone without trying to convince anyone of anything. Meat has fat so even though it is a source of healthy protein, you have to account for the fat in the meat as well. I've found excellent combinations with meat are low-carb vegetables or low carbs fruits like berries or watermelons. Cheese and meat also work together because both are fat sources. Potatoes (or rice) and meat are not a great combination but I am not telling anyone what to do. Potatoes and rice are some of the healthiest things I know. When I consume a high-carb meal, I mix a whey-only protein shake made with water and two tablespoons of gelatin. Thus, there is no fat. Ray has recommended between 80-100 grams of protein per day, and beyond that recommendation, I've found that range works very well for me. I see no need to go over that number. I make no apologies for loving meat and no apologies for loving sugar. I try to get protein at each meal if possible. I've leaned out by simply not mixing fat and sugar anymore. I cannot think of any type of food I cannot eat with the only limitation that I select it and prepare it myself. For me, since I love to cook, that is not a limitation but a benefit.

 

[Cirion]

Daniel,

Do we really need to avoid meat and carbs at the same time? Even 93%+ lean meats? I like to have some 93% lean beef with rice for example. I can see how 80% lean could be too fatty though. Remember too that cooking beef makes you lose 50% or more of the fat also, so the 93% lean beef basically becomes like 96%+ lean.

Just curious why you say you can eat a high fat meal with low (not zero) carb, but can't eat a high carb meal with low (not zero) fat? Is the latter somehow more dangerous than the former? Or am I just splitting hairs at this point lol... Just curious though.

Also - if you had to guess, what's your average split between fats/carbs in terms of calories intaken on a daily basis? Maybe 50/50?

 

[danielbb]

@danielbb

Great post. For the most part I agree.

I have a couple questions I am curious of your thoughts on though. Mixing fats and carbs is worse than either fats alone or carbs alone. On this I agree 100% and I agree this is why either keto or super low fat can seemingly work. (I still think keto is vastly inferior to low fat but that's a debate for another time)

What is your opinion about:

Do we need to eat dietary fat if one has excessive body fat to lose? My personal opinion is that we don't, because we have a huge store of body fat already - but curious to hear your opinion.

What about the research that seems to show that carbs are the preferred energy source for the body compared to fat?

I get that fat can be a great way to reach caloric needs. But do we really "Need" to have dietary fat and if so why? (Kinda related to #1)

My personal thoughts again are that one should probably restrict dietary fat because if you continue to eat it, my own logic dictates that the body would have a harder or more unwillingness to drop body fat stores when an inflow of dietary fat is also incoming on a daily basis. And again, carbs are more energetic and better overall for the body, at least from what I've gathered from research. But that if you're fairly lean, some meals of protein/fat separate from carbs probably have some merit. Again I think context matters (Lean - more dietary fat, Overweight - less dietary fat)

Good thoughts Cirion! Since I no longer mix the two, I can fully see how each operate for my body. Each work excellent for supplying energy and as I noted above, each can be employed to shed body fat. I do not believe one is superior to the other but they have their differences. I like fat-meals in the morning because the energy seems to burn slow, steady, and lasts a long time. I usually can skip lunch with the left-over energy from breakfast on a high fat meal. Sometimes, I feel like a high-carb breakfast so I simply skip the fat at that time. Often, I'll go high-carb (low fat) all day long and some days will low-carb it for the day.

I go strictly by whim and feel and place no rules over myself and have lost 95 lbs in 1.5 years. It's an enjoyable and healthy way to live life. My main consideration with fat is that it is 9 calories per gram versus 4 calories per gram with carbs. I do not count calories and try to only eat when hungry. Eating slowly really helps control things and provide satisfaction. When you think of fat or carbs, think energy. Just because you can load cheese, for example, on a salad does not mean you have to. What I am trying to say is, I try and think about whether or not I really need to eat something. Do I need the added energy? Am I prepared to burn it? Am I eating something just because I saw someone else do it (e.g., my parents or on TV) or is it something I simply cannot go with out? I do not believe in restrictions or following anyone else's diet plan. Only you know what you like to eat. Everything can be prepared and eaten so there are no metabolic consequences in my opinion (storing fat and causing inflammation). My only restrictions basically are No PUFA, no iron, no soy which are all easily worked around. I do believe intermittent fasting is a useful tool. I like to limit myself to two meals a day if possible is one form. I usually do not eat after my last meal on Sunday until dinner on Monday. It gives me control over the scale.

 

[danielbb]

Daniel,

Do we really need to avoid meat and carbs at the same time? Even 93%+ lean meats? I like to have some 93% lean beef with rice for example. I can see how 80% lean could be too fatty though. Remember too that cooking beef makes you lose 50% or more of the fat also, so the 93% lean beef basically becomes like 96%+ lean.

Just curious why you say you can eat a high fat meal with low (not zero) carb, but can't eat a high carb meal with low (not zero) fat? Is the latter somehow more dangerous than the former? Or am I just splitting hairs at this point lol... Just curious though.

Also - if you had to guess, what's your average split between fats/carbs in terms of calories intaken on a daily basis? Maybe 50/50?

Cirion - please see my post above this one responding to your last questions. I do not want anyone thinking I am suggesting rules for them. Everyone needs to create their own-unique system designed specifically for their own unique taste-buds. There are several options with meat. If the fat content is higher, mixing lower carb fruits or vegetables is a great combination. If the fat content is lower as you suggest, then I don't see the problem. I believe there are fat and carb thresholds for each body. Not the silly 30 carb/day thresholds like Atkins, but thresholds of mixing at the same meal. Thus, if you know the fat content of your meat is low, then of course, raising the carb content ought not to be a problem. I suggest that you be accountable to the scale each morning and consider everything you did the day before to figure out exactly what your particular thresholds might be. I love Italian food. When I cook my meat in the sauce, I am guessing 99% of the fat boils to the top which is spooned off. That type of meat I would consider low fat. Where people can get into trouble with Italian food is loading it with cheese and applying butter to their bread. You can use low-fat mozzarella and skip the butter on the bread (e.g., season it with garlic salt and herbs) as but one option. Another option is to drastically lower the carb-content of the meal. I have found spiralized zucchini to be an excellent substitute for pasta. I prefer wheat-only pasta however but both are fine. I usually do not add cheese anymore to Italian food but if I did, it would be a low fat cheese if possible and used sparingly. There are dozens and dozens of ways to skin this cat without metabolic penalty and eating the food that you enjoy.

 

[Cirion]

Cirion - please see my post above this one responding to your last questions. I do not want anyone thinking I am suggesting rules for them. Everyone needs to create their own-unique system designed specifically for their own unique taste-buds. There are several options with meat. If the fat content is higher, mixing lower carb fruits or vegetables is a great combination. If the fat content is lower as you suggest, then I don't see the problem. I believe there are fat and carb thresholds for each body. Not the silly 30 carb/day thresholds like Atkins, but thresholds of mixing at the same meal. Thus, if you know the fat content of your meat is low, then of course, raising the carb content ought not to be a problem. I suggest that you be accountable to the scale each morning and consider everything you did the day before to figure out exactly what your particular thresholds might be. I love Italian food. When I cook my meat in the sauce, I am guessing 99% of the fat boils to the top which is spooned off. That type of meat I would consider low fat. Where people can get into trouble with Italian food is loading it with cheese and applying butter to their bread. You can use low-fat mozzarella and skip the butter on the bread (e.g., season it with garlic salt and herbs) as but one option. Another option is to drastically lower the carb-content of the meal. I have found spiralized zucchini to be an excellent substitute for pasta. I prefer wheat-only pasta however but both are fine. I usually do not add cheese anymore to Italian food but if I did, it would be a low fat cheese if possible and used sparingly. There are dozens and dozens of ways to skin this cat without metabolic penalty and eating the food that you enjoy.

Cool - thanks for the response.

One last thing - How did you resolve sleeping through the night issues? My current issues with losing weight/getting healthy is that I can't seem to be able to sleep unless I eat 4000-5000 calories a day and while I have finally seemingly normalized my weight gain for the most part, I'm struggling with getting the scale to drop. Maybe introducing some fatty meals (separate from carbs) will help me to drop calories while not getting hungry or lethargic and also being able to sleep through the night without nightly awakenings or waking up feeling like crap.

 

[LUH 3417]

@danielbb do you eat ice cream or chocolate

 

[danielbb]

Cool - thanks for the response.

One last thing - How did you resolve sleeping through the night issues? My current issues with losing weight/getting healthy is that I can't seem to be able to sleep unless I eat 4000-5000 calories a day and while I have finally seemingly normalized my weight gain for the most part, I'm struggling with getting the scale to drop. Maybe introducing some fatty meals (separate from carbs) will help me to drop calories while not getting hungry or lethargic and also being able to sleep through the night without nightly awakenings or waking up feeling like crap.

Simply great questions. I've posted this other places but I cannot seem to find it now. My biggest revelation in losing 95 lbs in about 1.5 years was found by accident. I have serious heart disease which I believe now is completely reversed. Dr. Esselstyn, of Forks Over Knives fame, and a famous Cleveland Clinic Doctor wrote a book How to Prevent and Reverse Heart disease. He had several angiograms in his book to support his theory. My mother's side of the family has a history of the disease and I was told I had a genetic defect. That was depressing. When I read his book, I became liberated. For the first time, I could see that a) I had made myself sick by poor diet choices and b) there was something I could do about it by eating properly. I went hard-core Vegan per his guidelines because I wanted desperately to heal my disease. Was eating a lot of raw vegetables. I found my mood was cranky and I was suffering from low body temperatures - classic thyroid problems. One night, my wife and I got into a quarrel and as I was driving home, I said by golly I want some comfort food . I stopped by Wendy's and got a cheeseburger, fries, and normally would have ordered a diet Coke but by accident I ordered a regular Coke. After eating that meal, I had the best night sleep in 20 years. Massive hormone response and I am not going to get into the details but I knew I had a testosterone boost that night. I felt like a million bucks the next day. I went back to Vegan the next day but kept thinking about that night for the next two weeks. I first suspected it was the potatoes so I started experimenting with them but mild response at best. Then I figured it must have been the burger and again no response. Then it hit me like a lightning bolt. It was the Coke. I went out and purchased one, consumed it before bed, and I got the same sleep/hormonal response.

I had always been told sugar was bad for me but I knew in my heart that could not be true. I began researching and that is how I found Ray Peat. He is one of the few guys out there who can explain why sugar works so well. For that past 1.5 years I have not gone to bed without loading something like oatmeal and honey, brown sugar and honey crisp apples, pineapples and sugar, (any fruit loaded with sugar) or Mexican Coke. These have never failed me and I feel right as rain each morning. Mexican Coke works the best and I believe it is the carbonated water along with the sugar that provides magic. Some have tried my Coke idea and had troubles sleeping due to the caffeine. It works like a knockout drug for me. A work-around for Coke is to drink something like LeCroix with honey crisp apples loaded with sugar, for example. Since I know I am going to load sugar every night before bed, that is why I personally like to eat my high fat meals in the morning if possible. I do not create rules but go by how I feel. Loading sugar before bed has become a rule for me because it works so well. You can estimate the dose by looking up a 12 oz bottle of Coke and looking at the sugar content. I hope I have not built this up too much in your mind. All I can really say is it has worked wonders for me and never failed. If you try it, see if you can go carb only after lunch, so that you can determine the effects of sugar-alone before bed.

 

[danielbb]

@danielbb do you eat ice cream or chocolate

You are asking great questions. I think about these things all the time because I simply love them. I make my own ice cream. Normal ice cream cannot be made without fat (need whipping cream) and of course, without sugar, it would not be satisfying. The way I try and split the baby on this one, is this is one area of my life where I try to apply reasonable portion control I am now considering making ice cream using low-fat Yogurt. If I perfect this, I'll try and post my results here. The individual ingredients of ice cream are completely healthy. Metabolically, the mixture can cause problems if over-indulged but I make no apologies for loving ice cream. An EXCELLENT substitute for ice cream is Yonanna frozen fruit processor. Frozen ripe bananas are delicious and simulate ice cream very well! I've found the combination of frozen honey dew and frozen cantaloupe are delicious and feel like you are eating ice cream. They are also spectacularly beautiful in color when you serve them.

Chocolate I love it but it is a tweener food (fat/sugar). Chocolate is high in fat. Ever tried Baker's chocolate or Cocoa powder, or raw Cacao? They are bitter and taste awful. It's not until you add sugar does it become what we all know and love. I contend what people are really responding to with chocolate is the sugar. Otherwise, why not just eat the raw chocolate? I suppose chocolate could be made with something like xylitol to cut the carb content. I try and eat in moderation but simply love it. I make no apologies for loving sugary things by I do try and avoid mixing fat and sugar if possible (for metabolic reasons described above). If not possible to avoid the mix such as in chocolate, I use portion control but I will not lie, it is hard, really hard

 

[LUH 3417]

You are asking great questions. I think about these things all the time because I simply love them. I make my own ice cream. Normal ice cream cannot be made without fat (need whipping cream) and of course, without sugar, it would not be satisfying. The way I try and split the baby on this one, is this is one area of my life where I try to apply reasonable portion control I am now considering making ice cream using low-fat Yogurt. If I perfect this, I'll try and post my results here. The individual ingredients of ice cream are completely healthy. Metabolically, the mixture can cause problems if over-indulged but I make no apologies for loving ice cream. An EXCELLENT substitute for ice cream is Yonanna frozen fruit processor. Frozen ripe bananas are delicious and simulate ice cream very well! I've found the combination of frozen honey dew and frozen cantaloupe are delicious and feel like you are eating ice cream. They are also spectacularly beautiful in color when you serve them.

Chocolate I love it but it is a tweener food (fat/sugar). Chocolate is high in fat. Ever tried Baker's chocolate or Cocoa powder, or raw Cacao? They are bitter and taste awful. It's not until you add sugar does it become what we all know and love. I contend what people are really responding to with chocolate is the sugar. Otherwise, why not just eat the raw chocolate? I suppose chocolate could be made with something like xylitol to cut the carb content. I try and eat in moderation but simply love it. I make no apologies for loving sugary things by I do try and avoid mixing fat and sugar if possible (for metabolic reasons described above). If not possible to avoid the mix such as in chocolate, I use portion control but I will not lie, it is hard, really hard

I agree that it is difficult

 

[danielbb]

Processed/blended frozen fruit may not sound as enticing as ice cream, but it is and then there are no difficulties @pinacolada

Still love ice cream and chocolate nonetheless within reason. I do not eat much chocolate anymore however and for me (the scale results), that is a good thing.

 

[Cirion]

This is a great and very interesting discussion that has taught me some things and caused me to further refine some of my theories for optimal health. Daniel, I have about as much weight to lose as you did so it's encouraging that you managed that without restricting dietary fat - just don't consume it alongside sugar. That was my downfall. Speaking of ice cream, I primarily blame haagen dazs for my weight gain - I ate loads of it for a while. A perfect storm of sugar and fat.

There are studies out there that suggest the optimal dietary fat intake is roughly 33% of caloric intake, give or take 5-10%, and I've tried to reconcile that with trying to not get fat etc. It sounds like the answer is precisely what you've been saying - just don't mix the two in the same meal. Crazy how eating the exact same foods in the same day can have such a huge impact, merely when you time when you eat them. I did not respect that as much as I should have, apparently. I wish that Ray Peat talked more about this, because at least, I never got this impression from his articles, although it's possible I overlooked it. The only impression I got from RP is simply "Don't have too much whole milk/total fat or you may get fat". Maybe thinking in terms of calorie overload is too simplistic, maybe more accurately, that being in either a dietary fat excess OR a dietary carb excess causes fat gain? So with that, maybe it's actually harder to be in an excess if you swap between fats and carbs, thus resulting in weight/fat loss more easily, rather than eating exclusively fats or carbs (and also not eating both in the same meals).

Also, many of us are aware but it's worth mentioning - the human body can only store around 400 grams of carbs at any given point in time (give or take 100 grams), so I could see how over-doing it on carbs could be an issue. You don't really want to go into either a carb or a fat energy overload (either could cause fat gain), and switching between one and the other between the beginning and the end of the day seems like a logical way to do just that. Plus, having carbs at night ensures you don't run out of glucose during sleep.

A couple more questions for you - you had mentioned a history of veganism. I am sure you know they are very anti-oils in particular. Do you intake oils now or only whole foods containing fats like beef, cheese, bacon, eggs? Also, you say you worry about PUFA's - do you worry about foods like eggs, bacon etc. or do you just worry about avoiding veggie oils and nuts/fatty fish/fish oil? And where does one find de-fatted cheese? I've never seen those before...

BTW I also came to the same conclusion at having carbs at night =) I have a large starchy meal with some sugar at night. Only part I differ from you is I don't have a huge amount of sugar at bed time because it seems to go through my system too quickly and cause me to have nightly awakenings.

I've had many discussion with my mom (also a health nut) and she has told me she used to do "Food Combining" which is literally what you suggested (separate fat from carbs). Now I realize she may have been on to something.

 

[danielbb]

A couple more questions for you - you had mentioned a history of veganism. I am sure you know they are very anti-oils in particular. Do you intake oils now or only whole foods containing fats like beef, cheese, bacon, eggs? Also, you say you worry about PUFA's - do you worry about foods like eggs, bacon etc. or do you just worry about avoiding veggie oils and nuts/fatty fish/fish oil?

When I say no PUFA - I mean in the form of vegetable and seed oil. I believe Ray is right that omega-3 (omega oil or other forms) is a marketing scam and there is no need to try and consume it. Even the American Heart Association recommends omega-3 and I believe they are dead wrong on that point. Some PUFA is unavoidable as you are keenly aware. I will not freak out over this level of minutiae. If bacon for example, made me feel off-kilter in any way, I would no longer consume it. Bacon, eggs, toast, jelly, and OJ is no longer eaten at one sitting. Toast (no butter), jelly and OJ by themselves as a high-carb meal are fine. Bacon and eggs burn all day without side-effect and remember I am a heart patient and would not do it if say it caused an increase in blood pressure or some other biomarker problem. I've found almost all processed food, including almost all commercial bread, contains some type of oil as a preservative. Most contain soy as well. Even Ezekiel, which the Vegans think are perfectly healthy contains soy as one of the ingredients. If I want bread (e.g., pizza crust or cinnamon rolls) I make it myself from non-enriched flour and go low fat when I eat those. The individual ingredients of Hagendais ice cream are healthy in my opinion. The mixture is inflammatory if over-indulged in my opinion. I have some at home but eat it in small portions to avoid the threshold issues (fat/sugar thresholds) I described above.

It has indeed been a wonderful discussion and frankly I've not spent much time here because it seems like a magic-pill forum to some extent and I believe supplements are unnecessary if healthy food and food combinations are selected. Nature controls the dose of everything we need perfectly. We do not need to outthink these things.

Since the mood is good, anyone ever try a Cinnabon roll? They are loaded with fat and sugar. I've invented a no-fat Cinnabon and based on feedback I've gotten from them, people are going ga-ga over them. Some have said they are better. Here are some stats: Cinnabon 880 calories/roll, mine are approximately 400 calories per roll depending on size. Cinnabon 37g fat per roll and mine are 1g fat per roll which is 37 times less fat. Am I claiming you can eat these indiscriminately and lose weight? No, of course not. My wife is satisfied with 1/2 of a roll with her coffee at breakfast and I enjoy one roll for breakfast. It is a clean burn of carbs and much like with a high-fat only meal, one roll lasts me until dinner time. I've also found that when sugar and fat are not mixed, that your hunger signals are not disrupted so you definitely get the right feedback when eating these when it is time to stop eating. They seem impossible to over-indulge. Anyhow, a coworker asked for the recipe so here it is - a cut and paste job:

Here is the recipe for the rolls – watch the video in the recipe before attempting to make them as the lady shows you exactly how to make them. Very valuable and note how she measures flour.

https://www.tastesoflizzyt.com/homemade-cinnamon-rolls/

Tweaks to the above recipe to remove fat:

1) Do not use enriched flour such as commercial brands like Pillsbury or Robinhood that add iron and other low-grade- B-vitamins. These added items to flour are toxic. Use King Arthur Brand - Organic, Unbleached, all-purpose flour. This is “wheat only” flour without the added toxins. Can be purchased at most supermarkets. Along with this tip, I only use whole-wheat, non-enriched pasta for the same reasons. The only place I’ve found for pasta is Whole Foods.

2) Her recipe above is broken into four steps: a) dough, b) filling, c) cream placed over top of rolls just before baking to improve moistness, and d) glaze

a) for dough - Use 1% milk for the milk. Substitute 1/3 cup of unsweetened apple sauce in place of 1/3 cup of butter. I mixed the apple sauce with the milk and heated both up to 115 degrees before adding the yeast to the mixture. As she notes, make sure your eggs have warmed to room temperature before adding to the 115 degree mixture. I mixed all the ingredients with a whisk before adding all the flour just as she describes in the video. Using a wooden spoon, I just kept working the mixture for about 5-10 minutes until it seemed like her dough in the video. Basically, keep mixing until it becomes a light-brown color and doesn’t seem to be changing in texting anymore (slightly sticky and rubbery texture). Let rise in greased bowl (I use avocado spray for bowl where avocado is the only ingredient in the spray) that for at least 45 minutes and as she says, until the mixed dough ball about doubles in size from when you mixed it. There is some work here (reasonable) but I believe a $300 bread mixer is unnecessary.

b) for filling – substitute 1/2 cup of apple butter in place of 1/2 cup of butter in her recipe. This makes a delicious and sticky filling. Just be patient and it can be spread over the entire surface after you roll out the dough. Mix the brown sugar and cinnamon before adding the apple butter.

c) her secret tip is to pour 1/2 cup of heavy whipping cream over the finished rolls just before baking. Make your own cream by mixing 1/2 cup of 1% milk with 1/4 cup of powdered sugar, 1 tsp lemon juice, and 1/2 tsp vanilla extract. The recipe I saw for low fat whipping creme also used 1 egg white (probably simulates creaminess) but I am pretty sure that is unnecessary and I actually forgot to use the egg white in the ones you tried. Make sure this mixture is room temperature before pouring on the rolls. It will look soupy and scary when you pour it on but magically is completely absorbed by the rolls during cooking. Her bake time was 17-19 minutes and I used 18.

Here’s a link for the whipping crème that I used. I merely substituted 1/2 cup of 1% milk for her dry milk combination with water. I also forgot to add the egg white but now they turned out so good, I do not believe egg whites are at all necessary.

https://theviewfromgreatisland.com/natural-fat-free-whipped-cream/

d) for glaze – I’ll attach a link but I found how to make crème cheese without fat. Use Fage 0% fat Greek-style yogurt in place of regular crème cheese. You may not even have to strain it but I strained it over night and a little liquid did strain out of it. I then experimented and kept adding powdered sugar until I got the sweetness and texture I liked. It will have a slightly tart taste and the way you fix that is to add small dashes of salt until the glaze tastes how you think it ought to. The salt simulates the butter flavor in the glaze. This mixture at first is a little runny which is actually good because it easily spoons over the warm rolls. Overnight, the glaze hardens-up nicely. I’ll probably use this style for making carrot cake frosting in the future. It would probably be too runny to immediately try and frost a cake but I suspect if I refrigerate before frosting the cake, it will work fine. As a bonus, I’ll put my carrot cake recipe and link in here. It’s the best I’ve ever tried and anyone else who has ever tried it feels the same way. This carrot cake recipe is where I learned that apple sauce could be used in baking in place of butter or oil.

Link for making crème cheese (this may be unnecessary as the Yogurt is fairly dry to begin with):

https://www.nanaslittlekitchen.com/easy-fat-free-cream-cheese/

Link for carrot cake recipe:

https://www.momontimeout.com/to-die-for-carrot-cake-recipe/

 

[Cirion]

Nice, sounds really good. Unfortunately, I'm not very good at cooking (and honestly dislike it because of how long it takes) =( LOL but thanks for posting, it does look good!

Yeah these forums are full of dogma, but there's also lots of hidden gems as well, and I have learned a LOT by being around here and having an open mind - like just today, you inspired me to try eating similar to you. I think I unfairly put the blame on dietary fat, when the real culprit is just mixing them in the same meal as sugar. I have to be honest, the idea of some bacon and eggs sounds pretty good... I haven't had a meal like that in quite some time.

It's tough, there is sooo much disinformation in the health arena, it's hard to blame people for being mis-informed or even mis-informing others.

I definitely agree on the whole magic pill thing. I've played off and on with supplements and so far none of that stuff has been helpful. I do think once you get older there may be merit to hormone supplementation, because no matter how healthy you eat, hormone production does lessen with age. But I don't think one should have to be on T-replacement or thyroid in their 30s...

I hadn't considered unfortified flour either, another good tip!

 

[danielbb]

Nice, sounds really good. Unfortunately, I'm not very good at cooking (and honestly dislike it because of how long it takes) =( LOL but thanks for posting, it does look good!

Yeah these forums are full of dogma, but there's also lots of hidden gems as well, and I have learned a LOT by being around here and having an open mind - like just today, you inspired me to try eating similar to you. I think I unfairly put the blame on dietary fat, when the real culprit is just mixing them in the same meal as sugar. I have to be honest, the idea of some bacon and eggs sounds pretty good... I haven't had a meal like that in quite some time.

That is great. Only you know what you like - none of us can prescribe your food for you. Eat what you like in a healthy manner and you will be golden. If you try the bacon and eggs and you do not feel well because of it, then that is all you need to know. I suspect by not adding the toast, jelly, orange juice and perhaps oatmeal to it, that you will see a huge difference. Eat the oatmeal, orange juice, fruit, and other carbs at another breakfast and you will feel equally great as well. I learned the hard way. I do not believe my weight loss results are just anecdotal and specific to me. When I stopped mixing, per the Randle-Effect which is science that has never been disproven as far as I am aware, the weight I had gained from all the milk, OJ, and ice cream I was mixing left me quickly.

Look, regarding the baking stuff, I may seem like and old-grandmother posting here. I have the incentive of serious heart disease which led me in part to those efforts. Also, I love sweets and other things (e.g., pizza) and want to consume them without gaining weight if possible. One of my greatest blessings in life is that my mother showed me how to bake as a young child. It can be intimidating in some respects but I will always be grateful to her for passing that skill on to me. Youtube can turn any novice nowadays into an expert on any style food preparation. Those links I posted in the above recipe, for example, make it simple and the time involved is much quicker than you might think. But only do those things you enjoy.

As far as exercise, walking in the park is the best one I know (both for mental and physical health). Some moderate lifting (if you enjoy that) and you will be fine. No need to try and burn fat by killing yourself on a machine. Take care of what goes into your pie-hole and with moderate/reasonable exercise, and reasonable time, you will see unbelievable results.

 

[Cirion]

The one thing I'm still not clear on, and the only serious remaining question in my head.

How is it that some people can eat anything and seemingly not be impacted by the randle cycle? I am sure you have at least that one friend you know that is ripped and eats anything and everything, even fat and sugar/starch heavy meals. To be sure, these types of people are pretty rare-but we cannot deny they exist.

There's always that one annoying friend that is healthy and jacked without ever dieting or worrying about the "randle cycle" a day in their life lol. I hate to use the "genes" excuse but some people truly do seem blessed hormonally to where they seem literally immune to stress or inflammation..

 

[InChristAlone]

The one thing I'm still not clear on, and the only serious remaining question in my head.

How is it that some people can eat anything and seemingly not be impacted by the randle cycle? I am sure you have at least that one friend you know that is ripped and eats anything and everything, even fat and sugar/starch heavy meals. To be sure, these types of people are pretty rare-but we cannot deny they exist.

There's always that one annoying friend that is healthy and jacked without ever dieting or worrying about the "randle cycle" a day in their life lol.

What do you mean they are rare? Millions of young people fit that category where they can eat pizza and not gain weight. I was this person for literally all of my life up until a year ago. The body uses fat at rest. It's not hard to see how people can remain lean and eat both fats and carbs.

 

[Cirion]

What do you mean they are rare? Millions of young people fit that category where they can eat pizza and not gain weight. I was this person for literally all of my life up until a year ago. The body uses fat at rest. It's not hard to see how people can remain lean and eat both fats and carbs.

I won't rehash Daniel's post, so have a read through it - he explained it well.

Yeah you're not wrong about age. I guess it's true that my friend in question was pretty young. It remains to be seen if he continues to get away with it. But, even at that, I never got away with mixing fats and carbs - even when I was a teenager. Sure, I didn't get fat - but I still got hit by the inflammation of mixing fats and carbs (intense fatigue, brain fog etc.) Weight gain then, I'd argue is the final symptom of stress and inflammation, not the first, that's why weight gain only tends to follow after years of stress and inflammation.

So just because you don't gain weight doesn't mean it's healthy. The effects of the randle cycle have clearly been documented, it's been scientifically proven, there's no escaping it. And that's how I'm confused that some people (usually younger) seemingly are immune to the effects. Only thing I figure is that youthful hormones are higher, which tend to be strong enough to overcome most stressors and inflammation (though not for me, I was not a healthy kid).

So when I say rare, I mean it's rare for someone to be immune to not only the weight gain effects but also the inflammation effects, and especially as one ages. I would argue that most people today, even teenagers and people in their twenties, are in a chronic state of inflammation, even if they're lean. I myself didn't acknowledge that my issues as a teenager was stress and inflammation from poor diet until a couple years ago. People think it's normal to get sleepy after a big meal - it's not. I used to sleep five hours every sunday after eating Mexican food after church and actually thought that was normal. I'm serious. I blamed it on not enough sleep the night before (True that I often stayed up late) but I don't think five hour naps are ever normal.

Anyway my friend is immune to both the weight gain AND the inflammation (He is always high energy, upbeat and cheerful). Though I do admit, he also lives a fulfilling life and as far as I can tell, he is living his dream life.