19 year old male: insomnia, water retention, depression and suicidal thoughts (blood work, labs included)

[Vins7]

I'd be happy to admit that 2 liters of milk and 2 liters of juice or something like that would help keep me from taking thyroid, but I can't digest anything but raw meat and honey. I can no longer walk normally. The pain in the joints is very severe and I have to walk slowly and for very short distances. I want to die every day from the pain that I feel. I will definitely try to reintroduce milk (goat milk), but I need at least some support now. Because on September 1st I will again have very intensive training at the university, but now even walking is difficult for me.

Have doctors tested celiac desease?

 

[InChristAlone]

This forum has lost its purpose because food was recommended before a drug in a case of severe malnourishment?

His first post on the forum I recommended 3,000+ calories because he was super skinny and complaining that losing weight doesn't make his face look better. @Peatful also had a great post. Our posts were mostly ignored because that's what happens to someone disordered they only follow prescription dietary recommendations because they think they are broken and need certain things to fix it. Well yes their system is shutting down because they can't loosen the grip on their problem they are helpless. Cyproheptadine can help lower the cholinergic system and allow for the relaxation needed to heal. Someone suicidal needs more than eggs liver and white rice to get better.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Look at his exercise level and calorie intake… his cortisol is sky high. Clearly money hasn’t been an issue before if he’s tried every diet under the sun. Eating the right foods, which others have already recommended, is not expensive.

I was just defending the forum in what I was saying.

 

[aniciete]

His first post on the forum I recommended 3,000+ calories because he was super skinny and complaining that losing weight doesn't make his face look better. @Peatful also had a great post. Our posts were mostly ignored because that's what happens to someone disordered they only follow prescription dietary recommendations because they think they are broken and need certain things to fix it. Well yes their system is shutting down because they can't loosen the grip on their problem they are helpless. Cyproheptadine can help lower the cholinergic system and allow for the relaxation needed to heal. Someone suicidal needs more than eggs liver and white rice to get better.

A couple eggs are great and nutritious. White rice is cheap and easily digestible. No ***t someone needs more than those foods. Nobody told his kid to eat 3 foods and leave it at that. He’s 19 for ffs. He should be eating whatever he wants. He’s has had a history of orthorexic dieting and still does, eating raw beef and honey exclusively. I wouldn’t be surprised if he picked up some stomach bug or pathogen along the way that would get labeled off as “detox” by those communities. No drug will help him if he continues to eat like this. He trains like an athlete and eats the equivalent to a toddler. Vital nutrients are missing in his diet, including calcium, which Peat puts major emphasis on. Why not recommend that?

 

[InChristAlone]

A couple eggs are great and nutritious. White rice is cheap and easily digestible. No ***t someone needs more than those foods. Nobody told his kid to eat 3 foods and leave it at that. He’s 19 for ffs. He should be eating whatever he wants. He’s has had a history of orthorexic dieting and still does, eating raw beef and honey exclusively. I wouldn’t be surprised if he picked up some stomach bug or pathogen along the way that would get labeled off as “detox” by those communities. No drug will help him if he continues to eat like this. He trains like an athlete and eats the equivalent to a toddler. Vital nutrients are missing in his diet, including calcium, which Peat puts major emphasis on. Why not recommend that?

I'm assuming he was being advised by redsun to eat those foods then when he said he was more suicidal he just corrected him saying do less eggs and cut out the liver, no mention of calories at that point. I'm saying it seems as though he can't force himself to stop exercising and just eat the food. He is mentally ill. Diets are not for orthorexic people at all. Cyproheptadine can lower serotonin and cortisol so that he can eat more. It's not just a drug it's a crutch so that he doesn't go and kill himself!

Here are some quotes from Peat on depression:


Since 2004, the FDA has required a warning that antidepressants can increase “suicidality,” aggression, and other problems, and since then several studies have shown changes in the brains of people who have died by suicide, showing abnormally high levels of both serotonin and its breakdown product, 5-HIAA, increased amounts of TPH, the enzyme that makes it, and an increased number of the serotonergic cells that secrete it (Bach, et al., 2014; Bach-Mizrachi, et al.,2006, 2008; Underwood, et al., 1999).Several serotonin antagonist drugs are increasingly recognized as antidepressants, and also for treatment of chronic fatigue and insomnia, and many of the degenerative diseases, but since most of them are prescription drugs, their use won’t be widespread as long as most doctors accept the myth. The ideology around stress physiology, falsifying the meaning of serotonin, estrogen, unsaturated fats, sugar, lactate, carbon dioxide, and various other biological molecules, has hidden the simple remedies for most of the inflammatory and degenerative diseases.

Avoiding prolonged fasting and stressful exercise that increase free fatty acids, and combining sugars with proteins to keep free fatty acids low, and using aspirin, niacinamide, or cyproheptadine to reduce the formation of free fatty acids by unavoidable stress, avoiding an excess of phosphate relative to calcium in the diet, having milk and other antistress foods at bedtime or during the night, and being in a brightly lighted environment during the day, with regular sunlight exposure, can minimize the harmful effects of excessive serotonin and reduce the inflammation, fibrosis, and atrophy associated with it."
From Ray Peat's newsletter: Serotonin: Energy, Degeneration, and Aging

"The nervous system is closely involved in controlling the growth of tissues, and it has been argued (R.E. Kavetsky reviewed the subject in his book, emphasizing the role of depression in development of cancer) that cancer results from reduced activity of the sympathetic nerves, or unopposed action of the parasympathetic system. That stress has a role in cancer is acknowledged by the scientific establishment, but the nervous system’s direct involvement in the regulation of cellular metabolism, cell division, and other processes that are central to the cancerous state is either flatly denied or simply ignored.
Although mast cells have been known to be a common component of tumors for many years, it is only recently that antihistamines and other antiinflammatory drugs have been recognized as valuable therapies in cancer. The whole issue of the role of nerves in tumor development and physiology has been submerged by the mystique of the “intrinsically bad cancer cell.”

In Alzheimer’s disease, there has been a great investment in the doctrine that drugs to promote the function of cholinergic (acetylcholine forming) nerves will restore lost mental function, or at least retard the progression of the disease. The success of anticholinergic drugs in treating several degenerative brain diseases is probably embarrassing to the companies whose cholinergic-intensifying drugs aren’t very successful. Conveniently for them, these formerly “anticholinergic” drugs are now being called anti-excitotoxic or anti-glutamatergic drugs. There is no serious conflict in the terminology, since the cholinergic processes (like the serotonergic processes) are closely associated with excitotoxic nerve damage. "
Autonomic systems

Autonomic systems

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

The anticholinergic drug of choice is cypro. And remember he didn't just have a dietary problem he also had multiple concussions.

 

[Chad_Catholic]

Cutting out blue light completely, whether it be from your phone or even from your room light can be very beneficial. I did that this summer and was able to nearly cure my insomnia. Also, do you pray? I started praying the Rosary, all fifteen decades spread out at three separate times of the day. This has also helped to strengthen my mind and my soul. In addition, do you read good books? I started reading a few hours a day, and it has helped tremendously. I started reading the Bible a few months ago and am already about a third of the way through. On my days off, I will do nothing except read and pray; I won't use my phone or laptop; and I won't even cook or go to the store if possible.

I hope this helped!

 

[redsun]

The choline police are breathing down my neck even though the kid was a total insomniac who slept a total of zero hours at night and only managed to sleep 3-4 hours during the day due to utter exhaustion. Imagine this... you are so exhausted but still the body does not let you sleep more than 3-4 hours at a time and only when the sun is up. His circadian rhythm was utterly screwed probably due to choline deficiency.

Copper foods were needed but copper is still stimulatory and does not really promote sleep since it enhances noradrenaline synthesis and the starches are not going to make someone go from an insomniac to being able to sleep easily so quickly. The choline made it possible for him to sleep period. He went from a serious insomniac to sleepy boy pretty quickly. And like I said and I stand by this, I am confident OP will get through this. As he sleeps more and his androgens start to increase again and with time his hormones start to normalize his attitude and outlook will change and he will be better equipped to deal with his current reality. No drugs necessary, and he didnt have to pound down a ton of calories to sleep. He just need the right keys for the right locks. Yes he obviously does need to eat more liberally but the dietary recommendations I and a few others gave were a good start. You are not going to 0 to 60 with someone who has orthorexia. You start slow.

I'm assuming he was being advised by redsun to eat those foods then when he said he was more suicidal he just corrected him saying do less eggs and cut out the liver, no mention of calories at that point. I'm saying it seems as though he can't force himself to stop exercising and just eat the food. He is mentally ill. Diets are not for orthorexic people at all. Cyproheptadine can lower serotonin and cortisol so that he can eat more. It's not just a drug it's a crutch so that he doesn't go and kill himself!

Here are some quotes from Peat on depression:


Since 2004, the FDA has required a warning that antidepressants can increase “suicidality,” aggression, and other problems, and since then several studies have shown changes in the brains of people who have died by suicide, showing abnormally high levels of both serotonin and its breakdown product, 5-HIAA, increased amounts of TPH, the enzyme that makes it, and an increased number of the serotonergic cells that secrete it (Bach, et al., 2014; Bach-Mizrachi, et al.,2006, 2008; Underwood, et al., 1999).Several serotonin antagonist drugs are increasingly recognized as antidepressants, and also for treatment of chronic fatigue and insomnia, and many of the degenerative diseases, but since most of them are prescription drugs, their use won’t be widespread as long as most doctors accept the myth. The ideology around stress physiology, falsifying the meaning of serotonin, estrogen, unsaturated fats, sugar, lactate, carbon dioxide, and various other biological molecules, has hidden the simple remedies for most of the inflammatory and degenerative diseases.

Avoiding prolonged fasting and stressful exercise that increase free fatty acids, and combining sugars with proteins to keep free fatty acids low, and using aspirin, niacinamide, or cyproheptadine to reduce the formation of free fatty acids by unavoidable stress, avoiding an excess of phosphate relative to calcium in the diet, having milk and other antistress foods at bedtime or during the night, and being in a brightly lighted environment during the day, with regular sunlight exposure, can minimize the harmful effects of excessive serotonin and reduce the inflammation, fibrosis, and atrophy associated with it."
From Ray Peat's newsletter: Serotonin: Energy, Degeneration, and Aging

"The nervous system is closely involved in controlling the growth of tissues, and it has been argued (R.E. Kavetsky reviewed the subject in his book, emphasizing the role of depression in development of cancer) that cancer results from reduced activity of the sympathetic nerves, or unopposed action of the parasympathetic system. That stress has a role in cancer is acknowledged by the scientific establishment, but the nervous system’s direct involvement in the regulation of cellular metabolism, cell division, and other processes that are central to the cancerous state is either flatly denied or simply ignored.
Although mast cells have been known to be a common component of tumors for many years, it is only recently that antihistamines and other antiinflammatory drugs have been recognized as valuable therapies in cancer. The whole issue of the role of nerves in tumor development and physiology has been submerged by the mystique of the “intrinsically bad cancer cell.”

In Alzheimer’s disease, there has been a great investment in the doctrine that drugs to promote the function of cholinergic (acetylcholine forming) nerves will restore lost mental function, or at least retard the progression of the disease. The success of anticholinergic drugs in treating several degenerative brain diseases is probably embarrassing to the companies whose cholinergic-intensifying drugs aren’t very successful. Conveniently for them, these formerly “anticholinergic” drugs are now being called anti-excitotoxic or anti-glutamatergic drugs. There is no serious conflict in the terminology, since the cholinergic processes (like the serotonergic processes) are closely associated with excitotoxic nerve damage. "
Autonomic systems

Autonomic systems

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

The anticholinergic drug of choice is cypro. And remember he didn't just have a dietary problem he also had multiple concussions.

Never did I ever tell him to follow any sort of diet. I did not tell him just to eat eggs, white rice, and liver. I wasnt even the first to recommend liver. He was told to eat 1 oz of liver once a week. That is nothing literally. I told him to incorporate these foods as well as cashews. This is not the same as telling him to follow a diet. This is an addition from what he was initially eating. Why is that hard to understand? Did you think you could convince a severe orthorexic to abandon diet completely with the snap of his fingers? I mean clearly you did already and failed months ago. My way at least gave him good healthful options that he was willing to incorporate to improve his nutrition. Not only did he incorporate them, it did improve his ability to sleep quite quickly. The fact that he was able to sleep at night as opposed to not at all and you have the nerve to start condemning my advice that actually allowed this poor guy to finally sleep at night.

Silly little cypro pushers may have got him to sleep initially but then he would become dependent on cypro to sleep and his fatigue I guarantee would amplify 100x. You seriously would recommend cypro to a kid whose system is so weak from malnutrition and you want to give him a downer drug that will do nothing but put him into a coma basically since he was already in a very weak state. Ridiculous.

Now he is able to sleep all on his own, no cypro needed. A user awhile back dealing with autistic and emotional symptoms who was obviously advised to take cypro because he was on this forum ended up fixing all his problems per my recommendations by dosing large amounts of sunflower lecithin, a food-based supplement of phosphatidylcholine. Still you insist on this one-sided view on acetylcholine despite many being helped by increasing choline intake. You blame my recommendations for his sudden suicidal rant but you refuse to acknowledge it was our (me and others) recommendations allowing him to sleep when he was basically a total insomniac before. Talk about bias.

And then you and rinse both start vomiting out your one-sided, surface level understanding on the cholinergic system. Again with the bias. Those with bias will only ever know half of the truth at most whether they realize it or not. I will never recommend what Peat recommends just because thats what he recommends. I will only do so when it makes sense in context to do so and that based on the research, makes sense.

Again, OP will be alright. So lets not get overly emotional and worry ourselves to death. There always is an initial fall into a pit of deep despair that comes with a sudden sharp increase in awareness, when the lights upstairs suddenly turn on so to speak. I remember this "fall" myself so vividly as if it was yesterday. When this feeling of realization and heightened awareness finally came over me the first thing I said to myself, in the most shocked voice of my inner dialogue, "What did I do..." It wasn't a question though. I knew what I did at last but I wasn't aware truly what I was doing until I finally stopped. I will not go until detail on specifically what got me to this point.

But in essence it was the same way OP got to this conclusion when he last posted. I was malnourished, not eating correctly, taking things to numb myself but not really understanding what I was doing. Then once I changed it up and started trying to eat normal and more freely it happened. But I got over it. Every day after gets better and better. I felt it and with time I accepted what happened and I got through it. We need to give OP more credit. He has just as much capability to process his problems as anyone else does. It hurts badly, but as that quote by Alexis Carrel goes, "Man cannot remake himself without suffering, for he is both the marble and the sculptor." I believe in him and you should all as well.

 

[InChristAlone]

The choline police are breathing down my neck even though the kid was a total insomniac who slept a total of zero hours at night and only managed to sleep 3-4 hours during the day due to utter exhaustion. Imagine this... you are so exhausted but still the body does not let you sleep more than 3-4 hours at a time and only when the sun is up. His circadian rhythm was utterly screwed probably due to choline deficiency.

Copper foods were needed but copper is still stimulatory and does not really promote sleep since it enhances noradrenaline synthesis and the starches are not going to make someone go from an insomniac to being able to sleep easily so quickly. The choline made it possible for him to sleep period. He went from a serious insomniac to sleepy boy pretty quickly. And like I said and I stand by this, I am confident OP will get through this. As he sleeps more and his androgens start to increase again and with time his hormones start to normalize his attitude and outlook will change and he will be better equipped to deal with his current reality. No drugs necessary, and he didnt have to pound down a ton of calories to sleep. He just need the right keys for the right locks. Yes he obviously does need to eat more liberally but the dietary recommendations I and a few others gave were a good start. You are not going to 0 to 60 with someone who has orthorexia. You start slow.


Never did I ever tell him to follow any sort of diet. I did not tell him just to eat eggs, white rice, and liver. I wasnt even the first to recommend liver. He was told to eat 1 oz of liver once a week. That is nothing literally. I told him to incorporate these foods as well as cashews. This is not the same as telling him to follow a diet. This is an addition from what he was initially eating. Why is that hard to understand? Did you think you could convince a severe orthorexic to abandon diet completely with the snap of his fingers? I mean clearly you did already and failed months ago. My way at least gave him good healthful options that he was willing to incorporate to improve his nutrition. Not only did he incorporate them, it did improve his ability to sleep quite quickly. The fact that he was able to sleep at night as opposed to not at all and you have the nerve to start condemning my advice that actually allowed this poor guy to finally sleep at night.

Silly little cypro pushers may have got him to sleep initially but then he would become dependent on cypro to sleep and his fatigue I guarantee would amplify 100x. You seriously would recommend cypro to a kid whose system is so weak from malnutrition and you want to give him a downer drug that will do nothing but put him into a coma basically since he was already in a very weak state. Ridiculous.

Now he is able to sleep all on his own, no cypro needed. A user awhile back dealing with autistic and emotional symptoms who was obviously advised to take cypro because he was on this forum ended up fixing all his problems per my recommendations by dosing large amounts of sunflower lecithin, a food-based supplement of phosphatidylcholine. Still you insist on this one-sided view on acetylcholine despite many being helped by increasing choline intake. You blame my recommendations for his sudden suicidal rant but you refuse to acknowledge it was our (me and others) recommendations allowing him to sleep when he was basically a total insomniac before. Talk about bias.

And then you and rinse both start vomiting out your one-sided, surface level understanding on the cholinergic system. Again with the bias. Those with bias will only ever know half of the truth at most whether they realize it or not. I will never recommend what Peat recommends just because thats what he recommends. I will only do so when it makes sense in context to do so and that based on the research, makes sense.

Again, OP will be alright. So lets not get overly emotional and worry ourselves to death. There always is an initial fall into a pit of deep despair that comes with a sudden sharp increase in awareness, when the lights upstairs suddenly turn on so to speak. I remember this "fall" myself so vividly as if it was yesterday. When this feeling of realization and heightened awareness finally came over me the first thing I said to myself, in the most shocked voice of my inner dialogue, "What did I do..." It wasn't a question though. I knew what I did at last but I wasn't aware truly what I was doing until I finally stopped. I will not go until detail on specifically what got me to this point.

But in essence it was the same way OP got to this conclusion when he last posted. I was malnourished, not eating correctly, taking things to numb myself but not really understanding what I was doing. Then once I changed it up and started trying to eat normal and more freely it happened. But I got over it. Every day after gets better and better. I felt it and with time I accepted what happened and I got through it. We need to give OP more credit. He has just as much capability to process his problems as anyone else does. It hurts badly, but as that quote by Alexis Carrel goes, "Man cannot remake himself without suffering, for he is both the marble and the sculptor." I believe in him and you should all as well.

Redsun, he said he is commiting suicide. And YOU have the nerve to say what you recommended is going to fix him. I sure hope so because if not...

He praised your recommendation and in the same breath said he wants to commit suicide even more than he did before. Learned helplessness and body dysmorphia is way way way different than autism. If choline fixes learned helplessness show me any study even any anecdote. All I've seen is that it exacerbates depression. My autistic son eats way more choline per body weight than me and is way more depressed than me.

Also like you said, redsun, once his stress hormones come down there IS going to be sleepiness. The same thing happens on cypro yet you think it's basically poison when in fact it's also lowering the things that cause learned helplessness. When I was orthorexic and severely stressed cypro would reliably help me calm down and be able to get through my irrational fears. I gave it to my autistic son once and he slept well and ate better the next day had a brighter outlook. I don't give it to him more because I'm not stupid I know drugs aren't going to cure him, but when things get awful sometimes a crutch is needed.

 

[redsun]

Redsun, he said he is commiting suicide. And YOU have the nerve to say what you recommended is going to fix him. I sure hope so because if not...

He praised your recommendation and in the same breath said he wants to commit suicide even more than he did before. Learned helplessness and body dysmorphia is way way way different than autism. If choline fixes learned helplessness show me any study even any anecdote. All I've seen is that it exacerbates depression. My autistic son eats way more choline per body weight than me and is way more depressed than me.

Also like you said, redsun, once his stress hormones come down there IS going to be sleepiness. The same thing happens on cypro yet you think it's basically poison when in fact it's also lowering the things that cause learned helplessness. When I was orthorexic and severely stressed cypro would reliably help me calm down and be able to get through my irrational fears. I gave it to my autistic son once and he slept well and ate better the next day had a brighter outlook. I don't give it to him more because I'm not stupid I know drugs aren't going to cure him, but when things get awful sometimes a crutch is needed.

He praised me and then said he wanted to die even more because when he started eating more than just meat and honey and started incorporating the foods which would start filling in some of his nutritional gaps that hes been missing for awhile, he dealt with the all too common issues of increased swelling and edema associated with refeeding. Read his post again. He basically explained why immediately after. Sharp increase in edema which was already bad according to him beforehand. So this is likely worsened his self-image issue even more and triggered a strong negative effect in him. The edema is temporary as long as he doesnt revert back to his old way of eating. With more sleep, now that he can actually sleep, and as long he is eating enough and a proper variety of foods, his edema will calm down and everything will slowly get better day by day including his outlook.

 

[Peatness]

Management of Refeeding Syndrome in Medical Inpatients

Refeeding syndrome (RFS) is the metabolic response to the switch from starvation to a fed state in the initial phase of nutritional therapy in patients who are severely malnourished or metabolically stressed due to severe illness. It is characterized ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[InChristAlone]

He praised me and then said he wanted to die even more because when he started eating more than just meat and honey and started incorporating the foods which would start filling in some of his nutritional gaps that hes been missing for awhile, he dealt with the all too common issues of increased swelling and edema associated with refeeding. Read his post again. He basically explained why immediately after. Sharp increase in edema which was already bad according to him beforehand. So this is likely worsened his self-image issue even more and triggered a strong negative effect in him. The edema is temporary as long as he doesnt revert back to his old way of eating. With more sleep, now that he can actually sleep, and as long he is eating enough and a proper variety of foods, his edema will calm down and everything will slowly get better day by day including his outlook.

What food specifically are you saying fills in a nutritional gap so quickly he went into recovery other than just more carbs? You won't provide any evidence it was choline he was missing. Especially on a high beef diet already. This forum is all about lowering stress hormones and starches can reliably lower adrenaline if one is just starving themself. I am very familiar with eating disorders and recovery. Swelling is obviously a sign of starvation not a specific deficiency. More like macro deficiency. The Minnesota starvation experiment found that no particular vitamin or mineral helped recovery beyond refeeding syndrome other than calories. That's why nutrition forums are a bad idea for people with eating disorders. Especially if they are not being given the care they need to get through refeeding. They will just freak out as we saw. Also another word on cyproheptadine it is actually used for eating disorders because if you are trying to refeed with high serotonin and cortisol you may fail 50 times before you finally get there. The fear will be too strong. I've seen it over and over and over again in the anorexia groups. Most of them spend yrs in quasi recovery because they fear weight gain. Abolish the irrational fears and you may not even care you are gaining weight or swelling up. It certainly beats 10 yrs of suffering. And while it does build strong character it can also destroy your life. I don't subscribe to no pain no gain when it comes to life or death.

 

[redsun]

What food specifically are you saying fills in a nutritional gap so quickly he went into recovery other than just more carbs? You won't provide any evidence it was choline he was missing. Especially on a high beef diet already. This forum is all about lowering stress hormones and starches can reliably lower adrenaline if one is just starving themself. I am very familiar with eating disorders and recovery. Swelling is obviously a sign of starvation not a specific deficiency. More like macro deficiency. The Minnesota starvation experiment found that no particular vitamin or mineral helped recovery beyond refeeding syndrome other than calories. That's why nutrition forums are a bad idea for people with eating disorders. Especially if they are not being given the care they need to get through refeeding. They will just freak out as we saw. Also another word on cyproheptadine it is actually used for eating disorders because if you are trying to refeed with high serotonin and cortisol you may fail 50 times before you finally get there. The fear will be too strong. I've seen it over and over and over again in the anorexia groups. Most of them spend yrs in quasi recovery because they fear weight gain. Abolish the irrational fears and you may not even care you are gaining weight or swelling up. It certainly beats 10 yrs of suffering. And while it does build strong character it can also destroy your life. I don't subscribe to no pain no gain when it comes to life or death.

I have evidence plain as day. Its right in front of your eyes if you would only use them. Doesnt matter if he eats what most would consider a lot of beef. Beef is actually a poor source of choline on its own unless you eat pounds of it. Only eggs and organs are good sources. A diet with a combined intake of meat, eggs, and milk/yogurt/kefir would provide choline easily but the eggs would be the major contributor while meat and dairy provides small amounts relative to eggs.

He told us exactly how much raw beef he eats so a simple look on cronometer can show us about how much choline he gets daily since honey and fruits have virtually no choline. 500g of raw ground beef 85% lean only gives you 300mg of choline. Basically half of the RDA and the RDA is not even enough for some people. On top of the low choline intake, he has a history of regular exercise as well and I will even consider he was overworking himself probably in the past as well. Low choline intake plus intense exercise regimens depletes choline heavily. He also mentioned elevated heart beat and other symptoms when exercising. Also mentions lack of muscle tone, another clear indicator of low acetylcholine activity in the muscles due to choline deficiency. Even greatly reducing how much exercise he did was not enough and he got to a point where he cant exercise at all. Choline deficiency causes severe exercise intolerance.

Starches did help I am sure but would not help enough in severe choline deficiency which causes sympathetic dominance which will lead to very bad, unrelenting insomnia which he clearly had.

Never did I say his swelling was due to choline deficiency. It was due to refeeding edema because he started consuming nutrients he was missing. One of which he very clearly was missing was choline but he is likely low in many other nutrients such as riboflavin, calcium, copper, iodine, etc.

I don't know why you ask me stuff like this when it can be seen for yourself after 30 seconds on cronometer. Put 500g of 85/15 raw ground beef and 300g of honey and you will see just how bad his daily micronutrient intake is save for the occasional fruit eating. He clearly also needed more calories but he was getting 2000 a day so it wasnt crazy low and would not be the only explanation for his issues. There is very clearly much more to this. To say he just needed more calories is simplistic and plain wrong.

 

[BlackMolasses]

@redsun what do you usually eat ?

 

[InChristAlone]

I have evidence plain as day. Its right in front of your eyes if you would only use them. Doesnt matter if he eats what most would consider a lot of beef. Beef is actually a poor source of choline on its own unless you eat pounds of it. Only eggs and organs are good sources. A diet with a combined intake of meat, eggs, and milk/yogurt/kefir would provide choline easily but the eggs would be the major contributor while meat and dairy provides small amounts relative to eggs.

He told us exactly how much raw beef he eats so a simple look on cronometer can show us about how much choline he gets daily since honey and fruits have virtually no choline. 500g of raw ground beef 85% lean only gives you 300mg of choline. Basically half of the RDA and the RDA is not even enough for some people. On top of the low choline intake, he has a history of regular exercise as well and I will even consider he was overworking himself probably in the past as well. Low choline intake plus intense exercise regimens depletes choline heavily. He also mentioned elevated heart beat and other symptoms when exercising. Also mentions lack of muscle tone, another clear indicator of low acetylcholine activity in the muscles due to choline deficiency. Even greatly reducing how much exercise he did was not enough and he got to a point where he cant exercise at all. Choline deficiency causes severe exercise intolerance.

Starches did help I am sure but would not help enough in severe choline deficiency which causes sympathetic dominance which will lead to very bad, unrelenting insomnia which he clearly had.

Never did I say his swelling was due to choline deficiency. It was due to refeeding edema because he started consuming nutrients he was missing. One of which he very clearly was missing was choline but he is likely low in many other nutrients such as riboflavin, calcium, copper, iodine, etc.

I don't know why you ask me stuff like this when it can be seen for yourself after 30 seconds on cronometer. Put 500g of 85/15 raw ground beef and 300g of honey and you will see just how bad his daily micronutrient intake is save for the occasional fruit eating. He clearly also needed more calories but he was getting 2000 a day so it wasnt crazy low and would not be the only explanation for his issues. There is very clearly much more to this. To say he just needed more calories is simplistic and plain wrong.

This post is exactly why people with eating disorders should avoid this forum at all costs. I was eating 3 eggs a day when I had severe anxiety with panic attacks, problems sleeping, and exercise intolerance. I highly doubt eating eggs cures his mental illness. He slept because he ate more than just beef and honey. That is clearly obvious to everyone who has recovered from an eating disorder. Also I got double the amount of choline I normally get yesterday- still not the RDA I don't care about RDAs- and my allergies went insane and I couldn't sleep.

 

[redsun]

This post is exactly why people with eating disorders should avoid this forum at all costs. I was eating 3 eggs a day when I had severe anxiety with panic attacks, problems sleeping, and exercise intolerance. I highly doubt eating eggs cures his mental illness. He slept because he ate more than just beef and honey. That is clearly obvious to everyone who has recovered from an eating disorder.

I literally laid the evidence right in front of your eyes but you still resort to the overly simplistic answer instead. That is rich. Its not just the exercise intolerance its the other symptoms that appeared together since other things can cause exercise intolerance but its the combination of low muscle tone, the abnormal elevated heart beat in response to exercise that indicates poor choline status. You literally think a man would not be choline deficient on 300mg a day for a long periods of time which goes against longstanding research that shows this is in fact the case especially when coupled with lots of exercise. And that's because you are stuck and stick to what you think you already understand. Which you do not in fact understand. I am not talking about you. Panic has different issues, you are diverting the conversation to make it seem like I am wrong because you think eggs do not work for you and therefore it could not possibly work for him.

@redsun what do you usually eat ?

Beef, chicken, eggs, cheese, skim milk sometimes, white rice, salmon occasionally fruit and fruit juices and cashews are my main staples. But I will eat anything if I feel like it including "junk food". I will just try to avoid vegetable oil filled junk food if I can. But even then I would not lose sleep over eating it.

 

[PeskyPeater]

I appeal to everyone who writes in this thread. Do not write here anymore, please. I have decided that I will commit suicide this month. This is not an impulsive decision. I've been thinking about this since I was 12-13. Last summer, I already came up with a suicide plan and set a specific date. Don't waste your time and energy on me. I am the most stupid and useless person. Thanks to everyone for the advice and willingness to help.
Now I will give you one last piece of advice. Do not let your children fall into despair and depression. Do everything so that your children do not feel abandoned and alone. Do not drink alcohol or other drugs around your children. Give your son to wrestling or boxing from an early age. Make time for your son.
Farewell.

Goodday.

your problems are not unfixable. do not give up.

You may have damaged your thyroid with your vegan diet that has caused gut problems, this is treatable.

the resulting gut problems may have affected your mood and judgement, you are not being yourself
this is treatable with losartan or telmisartan an angiotensin blocker medicine, that is also active in the brain by destroying the angiotensin enzymes that affect serotonin in the brain. that is the cause of your despair.
this is fixable and you can order telmisartan online at russian pharmacy. click here

 

[Peatness]

Goodday.

your problems are not unfixable. do not give up.

You may have damaged your thyroid with your vegan diet that has caused gut problems, this is treatable.

the resulting gut problems may have affected your mood and judgement, you are not being yourself
this is treatable with losartan or telmisartan an angiotensin blocker medicine, that is also active in the brain by destroying the angiotensin enzymes that affect serotonin in the brain. that is the cause of your despair.
this is fixable and you can order telmisartan online at russian pharmacy. click here

I've noticed you are very keen on angiotensin receptor blockers. These drugs are not without side effects. He is only 19. Telmisartan has an age recommendation which wasn't adhered to when I was prescribed it. Furthermore, the generic formula often have undesirable excipients. There are natural angiotensin receptor blockers. Taurine is a very good one.

Angiotensin-Receptor Blockers

• Potassium (K+)
• Taurine
• Fiber
• Garlic
• Vitamin C
• Vitamin B6 (pyridoxine)
• Coenzyme Q10
• Celery
• Gamma linolenic acid/dihomo-gamma-linolenic acid
• Progesterone

 

[PeskyPeater]

I've noticed you are very keen on angiotensin receptor blockers. These drugs are not without side effects. He is only 19. Telmisartan has an age recommendation which wasn't adhered to when I was prescribed it. Furthermore, the generic formula often have undesirable excipients. There are natural angiotensin receptor blockers. Taurine is a very good one.

Angiotensin-Receptor Blockers

• Potassium (K+)
• Taurine
• Fiber
• Garlic
• Vitamin C
• Vitamin B6 (pyridoxine)
• Coenzyme Q10
• Celery
• Gamma linolenic acid/dihomo-gamma-linolenic acid
• Progesterone

I am aware of this, but unfortunately those things are not as effective to treat a serious condition.
Dr Peat recommends Losartan not for nothing

 

[PeskyPeater]

it is absolutely critical to apply a specific medicine with a high efficacy that works to such an extent that is also can affect the brain so it's functions are restored quickly.

Losartan or other sartans are very powerful and can resolve depression after a couple of administrations.
Progesteron for instance has many good qualities but is too weak to quickly counter the effects of aldosterone

 

[Peatness]

it is absolutely critical to apply a specific medicine with a high efficacy that works to such an extent that is also can affect the brain so it's functions are restored quickly.

Losartan or other sartans are very powerful and can resolve depression after a couple of administrations.
Progesteron for instance has many good qualities but is too weak to quickly counter the effects of aldosterone

High efficacy based on the fact that adverse reactions are rarely reported by doctors when they are informed about it.

Some drugs are not suitable for younger people. I know the OP is older than this age group but this illustrates my point

Safety concerns of angiotensin II receptor blockers in preschool children - PubMed

Two recent trials of angiotensin II receptor blockers (ARBs) were performed in children 0-5 years of age. Data from the published reports of these trials together with additional information from the sponsoring drug companies were obtained. Three deaths occurred in the 183 (1.6%) hypertensive...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov