18 Month Old Vegan Baby Dies Of Malnutrition

[Rafael Lao Wai]

@Kartoffel it is part of the flawed logic. The animals should feed on pastures not corn and soy.

Yeah. Conventional animal products aren't as healthy as naturally raised ones anyway. Chickens can have absolutely awesome fatty acid profiles, same goes for pigs, but the corn and soy they're fed makes the fat of these animals toxic due to to PUFA.

And according to Shawn Baker, these CAFO raised animals eat mostly the inedible parts of soy and corn. It's what was already going to waste anyway. Not only that, but they make nourishing animal protein from the lesser-quality plant proteins from grains and legumes. I believe the conversion is 0,6 grams of plant protein to 1 gram of quality animal protein. This is for cows, as far as I know.

 

[Kartoffel]

@Kartoffel it is part of the flawed logic. The animals should feed on pastures not corn and soy.

I agree, but as things currently are, that's impossible. Only affluent people would be able to afford meat, if only pastured meat was allowed.

 

[boris]

Yes that‘s a big problem.

Widespread green pastures would be optimal because it would stabilize the environment too.
Of course that is something that would take generations of education and implementation.

I think the discussion of animal well being should start with a somewhat species appropriate diet.
But as long as the industry has corn and soy waste to push and everyone wants to maximize profits probably nothing will happen.

Edit: Access to good food should be a human right in my opinion anyways.

 

[Ella]

One of the "leaders" of raw veganism movement.

Around 1998:

Less than 20 years later:

He's younger than Peat. I have to say his skin and hair looks good. But his mental ability seems to have declined.

WTF !!! I was worried about my arms looking fragile, skin and bones. This guy is younger than me but I think I am more muscular than him and I'm a female. Crickey !! Curved shoulders ain't a good look if you are promoting veganism. There is no way, I am going to convert to veganism and look frail in my old age. I may have cut out too much red meat. How much do I need to eat? Searching for that illusive balance of not too much and just right. I'd love to believe I could thrive on a vegan diet - so much cheaper and plants are easier to cultivate than raising animals. I just don't understand why we have to choose to be strictly plant or animal eaters. I just want to eat delicious food and wheatgrass juice simply does not get the salivary glands excited.

 

[Kartoffel]

Edit: Access to good food should be a human right in my opinion anyways.

On that we agree...you idealistic fool.

 

[boris]

@Ella I heard people reccommend one serving a day. Personally I eat a small serving of red meat every few days for vitamins and minerals. And mostly milk, cheese, broth to meet daily protein of about 100g.

I have no access to thyroid medication at the moment, and with hypothyroidism I can feel meat slowing down my metabolism.

@Kartoffel

 

[Ritchie]

No, I don't think so. He even said to somebody in an email that a meal of salmon, avocado and something else( not sure if it was tortilla) could be ok. He, as I stated, makes the best out of the person's situation. He's not gonna say that they should just throw away that food just because it isn't optimal. He understands that day-to-day life may be difficult to predict. But he said in another one of his articles, I believe, that avocados can be hepatotoxic, so NO, he sometimes recommends less than ideal foods, even if he doesn't think it's that good. Same thing about the starch. He clearly thinks sugar is better, but if starch is all you have access to, then make the best out of the situation.

I just proved he isn't all or nothing regarding diet, at least not without considering the context in which the person to whom he's giving advice is.

I think you mis-interpreted what I was saying, I mean all or nothing in terms of a long term and on-going way of eating. He wouldn't advocate or recommend a vegan diet (which he has done) if he thought it would cause issues long term. He would simply say he doesn't recommend it. The example you gave with the salmon is him saying a one off meal of that would be ok, not to live on it day in day out. Besides, when you break it all down (which I'm not going to do now) the rationale behind a plant based diet when adopting a Peat philosophy is very indicated. Low heme iron, low tryptophan, low methionine, low estrogen, low phosphate, low IGF-1 among other things.. while being a high energy diet, good quality protein, good fat (coconut) diet etc

I'm aware that fructose can boost cholesterol production, yes, but that doesn't mean you can produce all the cholesterol you need from it. Do you have study saying that? Forum member lampofred had or still has low cholesterol, even though he eats a lot of sugar. This study shows that vegans have lower levels of cholesterol( Vegetarian diet and cholesterol and triglycerides levels. - PubMed - NCBI), and Ray said that low levels of cholesterol aren't good.

Well there are plenty of studies showing optimum levels of cholesterol in plant based diets when blood lipids are done. Sure vegans may have lower cholesterol levels than say egg and meat eaters, but the optimum level for conversion in the the steroid hormones and so forth is what is of import. see this study for example but there are many more...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2374537/pdf/83-6691152a.pdf

Post the source of it please.

Look at the email thread I linked above between WestsidePUFAs and Peat for an example.

That's a bad comparison. Much less people follow a vegan diet, so obviously the number of people who malnourished their children with a vegan diet will be smaller than the number of people who malnourished their children on an omnivore diet.
Why are you comparing the shitty american diet with the vegan diet? The former is plant based. They aren't eating pounds of meat or eating liver everyday or drinking a gallon of milk a day. They eat a plant-based diet, with some animal products, which are almost always low quality, so obviously they can and many times are malnourished. As I said, show me a malnourished case of a baby fed a diet high in animal foods.

Yeah and the amount of cases of malnutrition from people feeding there children a vegan diet is minuscule, it is not even representative of the difference in percentage between ominvores and vegans. The point is there are way more examples on a typical omnivorous diet. And the main point is, idiot parents are idiot parents, regardless of the diet. Of course there are malnourished cases of babies who's parents feed them only shitty meat, if the parents aren't feeding them enough, giving them water, feeding them breast milk or alternative etc. I just think you are out to demonise a plant based diet and ignoring the logic here. A neglectful parent will **** their baby up and thats it, regardless of diet.

 

[boris]

I don‘t think the comparison is adequate. A neglectful or indifferent parent is something different from a parent who thinks they are doing the best they can for their child by feeding them raw vegetables or grass and thereby killing their child.

 

[Ritchie]

I don‘t think the comparison is adequate. A neglectful or indifferent parent is something different from a parent who thinks they are doing the best they can for their child by feeding them raw vegetables or grass and thereby killing their child.

And what on earth makes you think you can know the parents intentions and read their mind? Maybe they are just vegan, decided to raise their child that way but are both junkies. You don't know any of that. Or both just completely neglectful. How did you conclude the parents think they are doing best for the child. The article says the child was completely dehydrated and wasn't given water ffs. And the kid was sick with clear symptoms but the parents didn't take it to the doctor. Does that sound like a parent with good intentions to you lol A bit of telepathy going on from your part I think.

 

[boris]

There are plenty of reports of dead vegan babies. I didn't even read this one.

How did you conclude the parents think they are doing best for the child. The article says the child was completely dehydrated and wasn't given water ffs. And the kid was sick with clear symptoms but the parents didn't take it to the doctor. Does that sound like a parent with good intentions to you lol A bit of telepathy going on from your part I think.

I wasn't referring to this article specifically. I should have read it.

I'm just going out on a limb here and say that most vegans get their nutritional information from youtube and blogs. One look into youtube reveals tons of parents promoting a vegan diet for toddlers as a the best thing.

 

[CLASH]

I think you mis-interpreted what I was saying, I mean all or nothing in terms of a long term and on-going way of eating. He wouldn't advocate or recommend a vegan diet (which he has done) if he thought it would cause issues long term. He would simply say he doesn't recommend it. The example you gave with the salmon is him saying a one off meal of that would be ok, not to live on it day in day out. Besides, when you break it all down (which I'm not going to do now) the rationale behind a plant based diet when adopting a Peat philosophy is very indicated. Low heme iron, low tryptophan, low methionine, low estrogen, low phosphate, low IGF-1 among other things.. while being a high energy diet, good quality protein, good fat (coconut) diet etc

Well there are plenty of studies showing optimum levels of cholesterol in plant based diets when blood lipids are done. Sure vegans may have lower cholesterol levels than say egg and meat eaters, but the optimum level for conversion in the the steroid hormones and so forth is what is of import. see this study for example but there are many more...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2374537/pdf/83-6691152a.pdf

Look at the email thread I linked above between WestsidePUFAs and Peat for an example.

Yeah and the amount of cases of malnutrition from people feeding there children a vegan diet is minuscule, it is not even representative of the difference in percentage between ominvores and vegans. The point is there are way more examples on a typical omnivorous diet. And the main point is, idiot parents are idiot parents, regardless of the diet. Of course there are malnourished cases of babies who's parents feed them only shitty meat, if the parents aren't feeding them enough, giving them water, feeding them breast milk or alternative etc. I just think you are out to demonise a plant based diet and ignoring the logic here. A neglectful parent will **** their baby up and thats it, regardless of diet.

You dont know what Peat would say.

If a vegan diet was so "Peat" dont you think he would be a vegan....

A vegan diet is usually also high non-heme iron (which Peat has implied can be more dangerous than heme iron), high starch, high lectin, high oxalate, high trypsin inhibitor, high phytoestrogen, high irritating fiber, poor protein content (dont know what your talking about here) and nutrient quality, high PUFA, high phosphate (i dont know what your talking about), low calcium, low bioavailable nutrients, low fat soluble vitamins, its usually not a high energy diet either (I dont know what your talking about) etc. etc.

IGF-1 is causative in what exactly?

The only vegan diet that fits your criteria is a fruit and tuber based diet. This diet is extremely restrictive and has numerous issues from multiple standpoints, some of which are mentioned above...

Besides all of this, the vegan diet flies directly in the face of human adaptations, particular digestive anatomy and physiology.

You dont speak for Peat, nor do you know what he would say.

There is no valid argument for a vegan diet from an optimal health point of view. Its purely ideology and dogma. With that said no one is saying a diet high in plants is bad either. But an omnivorous diet is quiet obviously what humans are adapted to eat, evidenced in part by every single known culture that has existed on the planet in historical record lol. Animal products are a necessity for optimal health, theres no denying this.

As for the study:

The meat eater group is on average a decade older than the vegans and a little less than a decade older than the vegetarians.

The meat eaters weigh more.

The meat eaters are in an entirely different BMI group.

The vegan and vegetarians ate significantly less calories.

The vegans/ vegetarians ate less fat and less protein, meaning they ate more carbs.

The meat eaters drank more.

So the comparison is looking at people eating less food overall, eating less protein and fats, weighing less/ in different BMI's, drinking different amounts of alcohol, and on average about 8-10 years younger, as well as eating meat vs not eating meat.

Theres also the healthy user bias.

Also the vegan polyunsaturated to saturated fat ratio is atrocious.

What are we really comparing here?

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I think you mis-interpreted what I was saying, I mean all or nothing in terms of a long term and on-going way of eating. He wouldn't advocate or recommend a vegan diet (which he has done) if he thought it would cause issues long term. He would simply say he doesn't recommend it. The example you gave with the salmon is him saying a one off meal of that would be ok, not to live on it day in day out. Besides, when you break it all down (which I'm not going to do now) the rationale behind a plant based diet when adopting a Peat philosophy is very indicated. Low heme iron, low tryptophan, low methionine, low estrogen, low phosphate, low IGF-1 among other things.. while being a high energy diet, good quality protein, good fat (coconut) diet etc

Ground beef has less tryptophan than most plant sources of protein that I checked. That includes potatoes, broccoli and beans. Plus, the ratio of calcium to phosphorus in beans and potatoes isn't good. In nature, you can easily make that up by eating the animal's bones, but if your meal is beans and potatoes, you're gonna have to eat a huge volume of greens to correct the ratio.

If a vegan diet is so good, why isn't Ray following one then?

IGF-1, as Danny Roddy explained, has benefits, including if it's coming from diet.

How can a protein source be so good if it requires soaking and sprouting to be totally edible? You can't even eat it raw.

About the low heme- iron, well, you need some iron. Many vegans look anemic, which may also be because they don't get vitamin B12 from plant foods. Also, as far as I know, to say that you can get enough B12 from dirty water and food is to say that you eat animal crap, literally.

Excessive fiber, such as commonly present in a vegan diet, can lower vitamin D3 levels:
Reduced plasma half-life of radio-labelled 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 in subjects receiving a high-fibre diet. - PubMed - NCBI

So much for beans and lentils as a source of protein.

Plant foods have less lysine as well.

Well there are plenty of studies showing optimum levels of cholesterol in plant based diets when blood lipids are done. Sure vegans may have lower cholesterol levels than say egg and meat eaters, but the optimum level for conversion in the the steroid hormones and so forth is what is of import. see this study for example but there are many more...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2374537/pdf/83-6691152a.pdf

That study talks about igf-1 levels and androgens. I understand why you linked it, but I'm talking strictly about cholesterol levels. There are studies showing that people with higher cholesterol live longer and have less disease. Even if you supplement thyroid, your cholesterol shouldn't be below a certain level. So no, it isn't just the conversion that is important, as I see it.

Look at the email thread I linked above between WestsidePUFAs and Peat for an example.

Lol, Peat only talked about protein intake and PUFA reacting with iodine. Of course, he talked about greens' broth for calcium somewhere else, but that is in no way to "advocate" a vegan diet. He doesn't try to convince people about what is right to do. If you only have access to potatoes or beans, he'll tell you that potatoes are better. But that doesn't mean he advocates a high starch diet.

Yeah and the amount of cases of malnutrition from people feeding there children a vegan diet is minuscule, it is not even representative of the difference in percentage between ominvores and vegans. The point is there are way more examples on a typical omnivorous diet. And the main point is, idiot parents are idiot parents, regardless of the diet. Of course there are malnourished cases of babies who's parents feed them only shitty meat, if the parents aren't feeding them enough, giving them water, feeding them breast milk or alternative etc. I just think you are out to demonise a plant based diet and ignoring the logic here. A neglectful parent will **** their baby up and thats it, regardless of diet.

Proof?

As I said, an omnivorous diet, although better than a vegan diet, is still not that great, especially if we're talking about the USA.

I certainly agree that many parents are mentally ill, and make many bad choices, including malnourishing their own children, but even people who aren't mentally ill like that can be brainwashed to think that a vegan diet is complete, which it isn't. If you think feeding babies a vegan diet after they're weaned is as healthful or even more healthful than animal foods, then I think you're just not thinking straight.

Show me proof that the babies are getting malnourished due to meat, and not due to being fed vegetables and grains. So far, you haven't shown any evidence for it.

So I proved through multiple studies that a vegan diet is deficient in taurine, creatine and there a few studies showing carnitine deficiency as well, and I'm ignoring logic? lol You didn't even say anything about those studies, guess you can't deny the truth.

Actually, a vegan diet, especially from an early age, will screw the person. Veganism is a bad choice, unless you supplement multiple things that are present in meat, which is just ridiculous. If veganism is so complete, why so many deficiencies?

 

[MatheusPN]

First, the fault was the extreme abuse.
Is insane how people here appear to hate veganism/ vegans so much. The vegans notably: care and have zeal to sentient beings!

 

[Homo Consumericus]

Higher IGF1 levels in children who drink milk is considered related to height differences compared with those who do not. Accordingly, veganism is a useful tool for parents who would like to prevent their children from maximizing growth potential.

Healthy user bias is an interesting topic which follower vegans are typically unaware of and leader vegans avoid. In Asia healthy user bias is prevalent among meat eaters and health outcomes are an inverse image of the picture painted by western epidemiological research. Because meat consumption is a result of prosperity in Asia, meat eaters are more likely to be more well informed, have access to better care, and have healthier habits.

Disingenuous vegans academics nearly always compare a vegan diet with something called SAD, which I heard is primarily seed oils and iron-enriched thiamine-deficient refined grains, instead of comparing a vegan American's diet with a meat-rich omnivorous diet of a citizen of Singapore/Macau/Hong Kong-- regions of the world with highest life expectancy. This is a classic example of the unsophisticated tactics employed to game the system. These, and particularly the more sophisticated tactics such as p hacking, are feasible in part because of how few people have completed (and actually understand) university level courses in research methods and statistics. The stagnation of scientific progress due to continued investment in "research" which does not reveal relevant insights is the most unfortunate outcome because we all stand to benefit from higher quality results.

 

[MatheusPN]

I was near "peating" when I was vegan, I chiefly: eliminated the beans and became conscious of PUFA to become a "peat guy", a minor difference!
My diet was considerably better than the non-"peat diet"
Before appreciating Peat, while I was vegan, had already high temperature amid 37,2 to 37,5 and great at ankle test. Could perform one right arm pull up since I was 14,5, without training, and more...
Benefits of me;
Being "Peat" and vegan: More bowel movements and more than double calories
Being "Peat": More muscular and gained 7,5 kg, so far
Still feeling better when I eat more/ mostly fruit, but if I am pursuing muscle mass I will eat more potatoes or milk being better at it

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

WTF !!! I was worried about my arms looking fragile, skin and bones. This guy is younger than me but I think I am more muscular than him and I'm a female. Crickey !! Curved shoulders ain't a good look if you are promoting veganism. There is no way, I am going to convert to veganism and look frail in my old age. I may have cut out too much red meat. How much do I need to eat? Searching for that illusive balance of not too much and just right. I'd love to believe I could thrive on a vegan diet - so much cheaper and plants are easier to cultivate than raising animals. I just don't understand why we have to choose to be strictly plant or animal eaters. I just want to eat delicious food and wheatgrass juice simply does not get the salivary glands excited.

You can try just eating meat to satiation. I personally vary between a pound and two a day, but my digestion is more powerful now than it was a couple of years ago, so I wouldn't try this much if you're not used to it.

I, most of the time, eat the more gelatinous cuts, such as chuck. The butcher grinds the meat for me, and I pressure cook it. The liquid turns very gelatinous in the fridge. In my experience, very lean meat, such as chuck, need some added fat, such as tallow, to be enjoyable.

haha ye, wheatgrass juice just sounds terrible.

Absolutely, eating both plants and animals is much more enjoyable than eating just one or the other, and it's healthy too. The carnivore movement, although very useful to highlight the importance of meat, is a bit extreme when it comes to plant toxins. When native tribes can choose, they eat both animals and plants.

 

[Ritchie]

A vegan diet is usually also high non-heme iron (which Peat has implied can be more dangerous than heme iron), high starch, high lectin, high oxalate, high trypsin inhibitor, high phytoestrogen, high irritating fiber, poor protein content (dont know what your talking about here) and nutrient quality, high PUFA, high phosphate (i dont know what your talking about), low calcium, low bioavailable nutrients, low fat soluble vitamins, its usually not a high energy diet either (I dont know what your talking about) etc. etc.

Non heme iron? any evidence that this is bad? Because there is mountains showing the negatives of heme iron.
Easy to eat a low PUFA vegan diet.
Well prepared and cooked beans, leafy greens, mushrooms, etc eliminate this concern of oxalates, lectins, "anti-nutrients"
High phytoestrogen? Well if you are massively concerned with that then just don't eat soy. I mean are you aware of the studies showing the high amounts of mammalian estrogen (which is exorborantly more times potent than phytoestrogens) in dairy?
Poor protein content? What's wrong with well prepared lentils, beans, potatoes, etc for protein? They provide plenty. I train hard, weights and calisthenics and i'm stronger than ever. Well animal proteins generally have higher phosphate.
Calcium I get from leafy greens (among other things), as Peat himself recommends in his broths. Same as magnesium.
I eat a high energy diet, don't care what the usual is. I eat high sugar, high carb.

IGF-1 is causative in what exactly?

As far as this, and other issues. Perhaps look up Travis in the threads, he isn't active anymore but he spoke quite extensively about this from memory. Further there are tons of studies on it, just have a look on pub med.

 

[Ritchie]

Ground beef has less tryptophan than most plant sources of protein that I checked. That includes potatoes, broccoli and beans. Plus, the ratio of calcium to phosphorus in beans and potatoes isn't good. In nature, you can easily make that up by eating the animal's bones, but if your meal is beans and potatoes, you're gonna have to eat a huge volume of greens to correct the ratio.

If a vegan diet is so good, why isn't Ray following one then?

IGF-1, as Danny Roddy explained, has benefits, including if it's coming from diet.

How can a protein source be so good if it requires soaking and sprouting to be totally edible? You can't even eat it raw.

About the low heme- iron, well, you need some iron. Many vegans look anemic, which may also be because they don't get vitamin B12 from plant foods. Also, as far as I know, to say that you can get enough B12 from dirty water and food is to say that you eat animal crap, literally.

Excessive fiber, such as commonly present in a vegan diet, can lower vitamin D3 levels:
Reduced plasma half-life of radio-labelled 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 in subjects receiving a high-fibre diet. - PubMed - NCBI

So much for beans and lentils as a source of protein.

Plant foods have less lysine as well.


That study talks about igf-1 levels and androgens. I understand why you linked it, but I'm talking strictly about cholesterol levels. There are studies showing that people with higher cholesterol live longer and have less disease. Even if you supplement thyroid, your cholesterol shouldn't be below a certain level. So no, it isn't just the conversion that is important, as I see it.


Lol, Peat only talked about protein intake and PUFA reacting with iodine. Of course, he talked about greens' broth for calcium somewhere else, but that is in no way to "advocate" a vegan diet. He doesn't try to convince people about what is right to do. If you only have access to potatoes or beans, he'll tell you that potatoes are better. But that doesn't mean he advocates a high starch diet.


Proof?

As I said, an omnivorous diet, although better than a vegan diet, is still not that great, especially if we're talking about the USA.

I certainly agree that many parents are mentally ill, and make many bad choices, including malnourishing their own children, but even people who aren't mentally ill like that can be brainwashed to think that a vegan diet is complete, which it isn't. If you think feeding babies a vegan diet after they're weaned is as healthful or even more healthful than animal foods, then I think you're just not thinking straight.

Show me proof that the babies are getting malnourished due to meat, and not due to being fed vegetables and grains. So far, you haven't shown any evidence for it.

So I proved through multiple studies that a vegan diet is deficient in taurine, creatine and there a few studies showing carnitine deficiency as well, and I'm ignoring logic? lol You didn't even say anything about those studies, guess you can't deny the truth.

Actually, a vegan diet, especially from an early age, will screw the person. Veganism is a bad choice, unless you supplement multiple things that are present in meat, which is just ridiculous. If veganism is so complete, why so many deficiencies?

Not trying to convince you to go vegan mate. Not interested in really going on and on about this either in this argumentative style. Just pointing out that it is completely doable to be vegan and in great health with high metabolism, and that Peat has clearly stated it is doable. I've been doing it for 3 years and never felt better, there are many like me. And pointing out that this anti vegan sentiment is a joke, just do you man. Stay open and perceive think act, if you wanna eat high dairy high meat, go for it, keep your PUFA's low, keep you sugar and carb intake high, get enough protein but avoid the inflammatory aminos as much as possible (particularly methionine, cysteine and tryptophan).. There's just no need to be so defensive about it in opposition to a plant based diet.

 

[Ritchie]

The only vegan diet that fits your criteria is a fruit and tuber based diet. This diet is extremely restrictive and has numerous issues from multiple standpoints, some of which are mentioned above...

Nup, not restrictive at all. I eat a variety of sweet juicy fruit, fruit juice, sugar, potatoes, sweet potatoes, rice, beans and legumes (soaked and/or sprouted and/or well cooked), carrots, mushrooms, leafy greens, coconut oil, coffee, chocolate, coconut icecream (which is delicious btw), pickled/fermented veges like dill cucumbers, olives and kim chi, pasta, coca cola etc.. well prepared oats with blueberries, bananas, chocolate and maple syrup for breakfast for example, bean corn burritos with orange juice and coffee for lunch for example, maybe a coconut curry with potatoes for dinner.. There is so much variety.

 

[redsun]

Not trying to convince you to go vegan mate. Not interested in really going on and on about this either in this argumentative style. Just pointing out that it is completely doable to be vegan and in great health with high metabolism, and that Peat has clearly stated it is doable. I've been doing it for 3 years and never felt better, there are many like me. And pointing out that this anti vegan sentiment is a joke, just do you man. Stay open and perceive think act, if you wanna eat high dairy high meat, go for it, no need to be so defensive about it in opposition to a plant based diet.

It isn't a joke. It's reality. Vegans, the long term ones are dropping out of the vegan religion as they realize their health is failing. Slowly but surely it happens to all hardcore vegans. Even one's that have the money and dedication to do it right. They have a few great years of flying high with tons of energy which slumps down more and more until they are half dead. Some last months, some last years, all fall eventually because humans are not meant to live on plant matter alone.

My personal opinion is because a vegan diet is very heavy on copper content and adequate enough in iron(which more copper helps to absorb the nonheme iron better than usual) and jokingly low in zinc bioavailability. This copper constantly stimulates the CNS which sustains energy. Vegan diet is tons of sugar and carbs + copper with virtually zero antagonism of sympathetic nervous system by zinc and lack of choline(for acetylcholine aka the parasympathetic nervous system). And you don't even need much copper (though vegan diet provides a lot regardless) because without zinc you have virtually nothing stopping conversion of dopamine to noradrenaline and adrenaline. You can be like this for years but constant SNS activity increases wear and tear on all tissues and organs. The high manganese content of vegan diets can act similarly to zinc and work for awhile but what happens is you will not be able to repair damage faster than it is being made.

And because any vegan that has a few brain cells takes B12, they can make adrenaline easily as well. I'd argue many vegans are literally being sustained by constant B12 supplementation as well. Anyone is welcome to try say 5mg of methylB12 sublingual. I took just 1mg methylB12 one time under the tongue right when I had to sleep months ago(stupid idea, pure curiosity). I did it correctly as suddenly after perhaps half an hour I had a surge of energy and wakefulness seemingly out of no where. I proceeded not to sleep the entire night and just ran around my house like I had caffeine injected straight into the vein.

The actual joke is veganism, you can especially see this in women who look generally youthful before starting and then age like crazy, lose tons of weight, and become anemic and constantly cold. Then they come to their senses and start eating animals again. There is no point for argument because there is no argument that could possibly be made for veganism. I legit come to these threads oftentimes just to watch the show. So much effort from the sensible omnivores (99% of the community) arguing with a handful of "Peaty" vegans.

You'll ride the vegan wave until suddenly you can't anymore and you won't understand why. Then you'll just stop being a vegan. That's how it happens to all ex-vegans. Some try harder than others to tough it out and try all these crazy expensive things to fix themselves for months and months as they get worse. Some cave in faster, but all cave in eventually. We won't hold it against you when your time finally comes, I swear lol (at least I won't). You don't even have to tell anyone, just don't end up dead for veganism.