15 Grams Of Potassium A Day Without Supplements: Perfectly Possible

[Mito]

They do suffer from high blood pressure, as this progressively increases with age in most populations.

I know high blood pressure is very common but my point was it’s not all of the the 98% of people that chronically fail to meet the potassium RDA that have high blood pressure. This is anecdotal but I know middle aged people that pay very little attention to their diet and surly don’t meet the RDA for potassium nor do they restrict sodium but do not suffer from hypertension or pre-hypertension. Maybe the answer is all of them will eventually given enough time?

 

[Obi-wan]

potassium bicarbonate from Amazon. 1 Ib bag under $10.00

 

[Travis]

I know high blood pressure is very common but my point was it’s not all of the the 98% of people that chronically fail to meet the potassium RDA that have high blood pressure. This is anecdotal but I know middle aged people that pay very little attention to their diet and surly don’t meet the RDA for potassium nor do they restrict sodium but do not suffer from hypertension or pre-hypertension. Maybe the answer is all of them will eventually given enough time?

I would maintain this is because eating salt is so common that Westerners take a mildly-high blood pressure to be the reference range, no different that viewing 15 pounds overweight as normal.

Mancilha-Carvalho, J. J. "The absence of risk factors for coronary disease in Yanomami Indians and the influence of acculturation on arterial pressure." Arquivos brasileiros de cardiologia (1992)

 

[Mito]

Westerners take a mildly-high blood pressure to be the reference range,

My assumption of normal blood pressure is no higher tha 120/80 mm Hg. Do you think normal blood pressure should be lower?

 

[Travis]

Carvalho, J. J. "Blood pressure in four remote populations in the INTERSALT Study." Hypertension (1989)

'There was little or no upward slope of blood pressure with age; hypertension was present in only 5% of the rural Kenyan sample and virtually absent in the other three centers.' ―Carvalho​

'Also in marked contrast with the rest of the centers was level of daily salt intake, as estimated by 24-hour urinary sodium excretion. Median salt intake ranged from under 1 g to 3 g daily versus more than 9 g in the rest of INTERSALT populations.' ―Carvalho​

 

[yerrag]

@Amazoniac the last article was a long read. It makes a case for me to using more of potassium bicarbonate over potassium chloride for supplementation. I'm also considering lowering salt (sodium chloride) intake, and increasing potassium intake.

I've been trying to figure out why I've been urinating so much lately. As I am taking some supplements for detox, the large amount of urine may be a natural part of it, and there's nothing I can really do about that. But if I were not in detox, I should continue to work on reducing acid loads, and take in more potassium through fruits and vegetables, and if my intakes from food aren't sufficient, to take in potassium bicarbonates in preference over potassium chloride. Too bad the study doesn't state how much potassium bicarbonates to take. I have this nagging feeling that too much intake of bicarbonates will also cause increased urination, as the kidney will be excreting urine to reduce the excess alkalinity. So in this regard, I have to be careful to slowly increase my potassium bicarbonate, and have a log in place.

I've tried KHCO3 before as part of my protocol to lower blood pressure (with magnesium bicarbonate), but only used it for a day out of the concern of too much bicarbonate intake. This time, I'm using magnesium ascorbate instead, and could definitely reintroduce KHCO3 into my protocol. Given that I can still take more potassium, and don't feel endangered by increasing my potassium intake, I may be able to improve further the lowering of my blood pressure, which is my main focus (along with it lead toxicity).

Thanks for sharing the article.

 

[yerrag]

Carvalho, J. J. "Blood pressure in four remote populations in the INTERSALT Study." Hypertension (1989)

View attachment 10669

'There was little or no upward slope of blood pressure with age; hypertension was present in only 5% of the rural Kenyan sample and virtually absent in the other three centers.' ―Carvalho​

View attachment 10670

'Also in marked contrast with the rest of the centers was level of daily salt intake, as estimated by 24-hour urinary sodium excretion. Median salt intake ranged from under 1 g to 3 g daily versus more than 9 g in the rest of INTERSALT populations.' ―Carvalho​

View attachment 10671

Interesting Travis.

Insofar as what Ray Peat has said about increasing salt (sodium chloride) intake helping to lower blood pressure, how are we to make of this? I'm just as tempted to change the context of the word "salt" to not just mean sodium chloride, but salt in general (magnesium, sodium, calcium, potassium) in proportions that contribute to homeostatis. I can only say it in terms of acid-base balance and calcium balance, are there other areas to consider?

 

[Travis]

I can only say it in terms of acid-base balance and calcium balance, are there other areas to consider?

Did you know that neutrophils and macrophages transform the chloride ion (Cl⁻) into the hypochlorite ion (ClO⁻), which then can react with uracil forming 5-chlorouracil? This is a mutagenic nucleotide, proven to be incorporated into dNA as 5-chlorothymidine. These chlorinated nucleotides have been detected in inflamed tissues, and its been proven to transform cells since the 1970s. Five-chlorouracil is the triangular link adjoining three chains called (1) high salt intake, (2) inflammation, and (3) cancer:

[1] Bafort, Françoise. "Mode of action of lactoperoxidase as related to its antimicrobial activity: a review."Enzyme research (2014)

[2] Morris, Suzanne. "The genetic toxicology of 5-fluoropyrimidines and 5-chlorouracil." Mutation Research/Reviews in Genetic Toxicology (1993)

[3] Jiang, Qing. "5-chlorouracil, a marker of DNA damage from hypochlorous acid during inflammation: A GC-MS assay." Journal of Biological Chemistry (2003)

[4] Henderson, Jeffrey. "Phagocytes produce 5-chlorouracil and 5-bromouracil, two mutagenic products of myeloperoxidase, in human inflammatory tissue." Journal of Biological Chemistry (2003)

'Because 5-chlorouracil and 5-bromouracil can be incorporated into nuclear DNA, and these thymine analogs are well known mutagens, our observations raise the possibility that halogenation reactions initiated by phagocytes provide one pathway for mutagenesis and cytotoxicity at sites of inflammation.' ―Henderson

'We have detected a significant increase of 5-ClUra [5-chlorouracil] in the exudate fluid isolated from the inflammation site in which infiltrated neutrophils are particularly abundant.' ―Jiang

'Direct experimental evidence for the incorporation of CldUrd [chlorodeoxyuridine] into the DNA was found when HPLC techniques were used to demonstrate the presence of the chlorouracil moiety in the DNA of both mouse-testes DNA and mouse-liver DNA after a long-term, chronic exposure to 5-CU [5-chlorouracil].' ―Morris

'The ability of CldUrd to induce specific-locus mutations, reduce cell survival, and inhibit cell growth in human cells was demonstrated by Penman et al. (1976). These results indicated that after phosphorylation to the triphosphate, CldUrd could be inserted into the genome and induce genotoxic effects.' ―Morris

'Previous studies have also shown that 5-chlorouracil and 5-bromouracil can be taken up by mammalian cells and tissues and subsequently converted to their corresponding deoxynucleosides by thymidine phosphorylase. DNA polymerase then incorporates the resulting chlorodeoxyuridine and bromodeoxyuridine into DNA. Thus, our detection of halogenated uracil may be significant, as 5-chlorodeoxyuridine and 5-bromodeoxyuridine are well established thymidine analog mutagens that mispair with guanine, causing GC-to-AT and AT-to-GC transitions.' ―Henderson

'When mammalian cells were exposed to the deoxyribonucleoside, CldUrd, not only was it incorporated into the DNA, but it also induced a much higher frequency of sister-chromatid exchanges (SCE) than did equimolar concentrations of the structurally related analog, bromodeoxyuridine (BrdUrd).' ―Jiang​

There's also the mitogenic sodium ion (Na⁺), capable of lowering the membrane potential and increasing cell division. The studies of Clarence Cone demonstrate this perfectly, who was the lead researcher at NASA's Langley Research Center throughout the 1970s. Sodium has a greater osmotic potential than potassium, meaning that any intracellular potassium displaced by sodium would cause an intracellular pressure increase and swelling. Yet this isn't the whole picture, as mRNA has too been shown to be transcribed by a sodium influx. Decades later, many dNA–sodium interactions have been discovered such as: (1) chromatin swelling; (2) specific mRNA sequences that actually chelate Na⁺ ions; and (3) telomere ends that change geometry in response to Na⁺/K⁺.

[5] Cone Jr, C. D. "Electroosmotic interactions accompanying mitosis initation in sarcoma cells in vitro." Transactions of the New York Academy of Sciences (1969)

[6] Miura, Takashi. "A phase diagram for sodium and potassium ion control of polymorphism in telomeric DNA." Journal of molecular biology (1995)

[7] Yamamoto, Keiji. "Regulation of Na, K-adenosine triphosphatase gene expression by sodium ions in cultured neonatal rat cardiocytes." The Journal of clinical investigation (1993)

There are many more, and there's a good amount of articles reporting the higher than average sodium concentrations in ex vivo tumors. Yet unfortunately: I cannot find any of the ones on guanine-rich mRNA sequences chelating Na⁺, thereby becoming inactivated (some of the most interesting ones, in my opinion). Here is a quick article with many citations written by Loren Cordain; I have read many of the articles he cites, and I feel that he has reported on them fairly.

 

[SB4]

@Travis Very interesting with the low BP populations. You eat a high potassium diet correct? I would be interested to know if your BP is similar.

I recently went ketosis and noticed my BP was higher and still is. It tends to vary massively due to my pots but still. I also don't have any cravings for salt with ketosis which is weird as most people do. I think that could be something to do with my chronic bloating / puffiness reducing when in ketosis. As it reduces it could liberate sodium. Or it could just be my adrenals or f'd up or something else.

 

[Amazoniac]

@Amazoniac the last article was a long read. It makes a case for me to using more of potassium bicarbonate over potassium chloride for supplementation. I'm also considering lowering salt (sodium chloride) intake, and increasing potassium intake.

I've been trying to figure out why I've been urinating so much lately. As I am taking some supplements for detox, the large amount of urine may be a natural part of it, and there's nothing I can really do about that. But if I were not in detox, I should continue to work on reducing acid loads, and take in more potassium through fruits and vegetables, and if my intakes from food aren't sufficient, to take in potassium bicarbonates in preference over potassium chloride. Too bad the study doesn't state how much potassium bicarbonates to take. I have this nagging feeling that too much intake of bicarbonates will also cause increased urination, as the kidney will be excreting urine to reduce the excess alkalinity. So in this regard, I have to be careful to slowly increase my potassium bicarbonate, and have a log in place.

I've tried KHCO3 before as part of my protocol to lower blood pressure (with magnesium bicarbonate), but only used it for a day out of the concern of too much bicarbonate intake. This time, I'm using magnesium ascorbate instead, and could definitely reintroduce KHCO3 into my protocol. Given that I can still take more potassium, and don't feel endangered by increasing my potassium intake, I may be able to improve further the lowering of my blood pressure, which is my main focus (along with it lead toxicity).

Thanks for sharing the article.

You mentioned elsewhere the 'lead in kidneys' issue. How did you find that out? Isn't it supposed to accumulate in bones?

The problem with mineral supplementation is that vitamins need to be adequate and it might eventually affect trace minerals as well. Excess urination is probably a sign that you're lacking those and you can't use the minerals. Why the reluctance to get them through diet (at least most of them)?

I have the impression that there's way less urination from nutritious juices than coconut water: it's the vitamins and energy that make the minerals usable. Minerals alone must eventually deplete you further. You might be inducing a coral reef state, in which minerals are available but you can't do anything productive with them, and if they're assimilated, the incorporata is more random.

 

[Obi-wan]

I backed off the AVV/potassium bicarb. drinks. Was doing 3-4 times per day. Started getting fatigue (brain and body) and no appetite. Now more niacinamide and thiamine...Feeling warmer. Maybe I potassium loaded and the body did not want more. Want to keep cell metabolism in an oxidative state.

Biotin is a PDK inhibitor
Thiamine is a PDH upregulator
Niacinamide is a FAO inhibitor and increases NAD

 

[yerrag]

You mentioned elsewhere the 'lead in kidneys' issue. How did you find that out? Isn't it supposed to accumulate in bones?

It was with a DMSA (or DMPS not sure) challenge test with urine. I narrowed it to the kidneys. I had low serum albumin and high albumin excretion through urine. This points to a problem with the kidneys. Not sure about lead toxicity being limited to the bones though.

Why the reluctance to get them through diet (at least most of them)?

It's easier for me to change protocols with supplementation that with foods. I've already tried more than 2o combinations of electrolytes/anions and I'm now having success in lowering my blood pressure (thru chelation of lead in my kidneys) with a combination of magnesium ascorbate/potassium ascorbate/potassium bicarbonate. Still having to validate it with a week-long trial. The nice thing is the raw materials to make these are very low in cost: magnesium carbonate, l-ascorbic acid, potassium carbonate, and carbon dioxide. I get to play around with various electrolyte/anion pairings as well to find ones that work.

I have the impression that there's way less urination from nutritious juices than coconut water: it's the vitamins and energy that make the minerals usable. Minerals alone must eventually deplete you further. You might be inducing a coral reef state, in which minerals are available but you can't do anything productive with them, and if they're assimilated, the incorporata is more random.

I'm still drinking fresh juices from various tropical fruits - currently pineapple, papaya, and satsuma oranges. I'm also drinking coconut water, from mature coconuts. It's easier though for me to connect the dots though using mineral supplementation. For example, I'm finding that if I take magnesium ascorbate between meals, I seem to be able to effect the lowering of my blood pressure easily.

I've taken plenty of bicarbonates before (both magnesium and potassium), and they lead me to an excessively alkalotic state, and that's where I find myself urinating a lot. I don't get that effect in using ascorbates as the anion, plus I needed the vitamin C to aid in chelating lead. The ascorbate anion is a godsend, as it is not leading to either an acidic state or an alkalotic state, and it isn't costly (unlike amino acid chelates), and it doesn't have a large mass as an anion, so I don't have to consume a large amount of the mineral salt to get my mineral requirements. And lastly, I can use the GLUT4 and SVCT1 transporter to get the mineral in together with its ascorbate anion.

 

[Obi-wan]

Update: I have been experimenting with ACV, sodium bicarbonate and potassium bicarbonate. SB gives me energy and PB kind of makes me feel fatigued. So I decide to combine the ACV/SB/PB and like the mix producing a sodium/potassium acetate. This will combine with CoA and form acetyl-CoA and feed the Krebs cycle. Both inner potassium and outer sodium keep the cell at a potential. Hopefully a -70 to -80 mV resting potential. I backed off of the niacinamide (only use what's in Energin now) as it gave me nausea. Yesterday did a 100mg capsule of B1 and a Mexi Coke. Nice warm feeling afterwards...

 

[yerrag]

Update: I have been experimenting with ACV, sodium bicarbonate and potassium bicarbonate. SB gives me energy and PB kind of makes me feel fatigued. So I decide to combine the ACV/SB/PB and like the mix producing a sodium/potassium acetate. This will combine with CoA and form acetyl-CoA and feed the Krebs cycle. Both inner potassium and outer sodium keep the cell at a potential. Hopefully a -70 to -80 mV resting potential. I backed off of the niacinamide (only use what's in Energin now) as it gave me nausea. Yesterday did a 100mg capsule of B1 and a Mexi Coke. Nice warm feeling afterwards...

It's fun to experiment, once you get the hang of it. I recently made magnesium and calcium acetate, and used it for a short time before moving to other forms of magnesium and calcium. I used vinegar to make it with magnesium and calcium carbonate, but found that with regular vinegar, in the usual 5% concentration, didn't react well, leaving plenty of unreacted carbonates that are visible. Then I bought 100% acetic acid, called glacial acetic acid, and reduced it to 20%. I was then able to get the mag/cal carbonates to fully react to acetate.

I wonder how well the sodium and potassium bicarbonates reacted to ACV. Being that they are bicarbonates and they easily dissolve in water, it would be hard to know if they fully reacted with the ACV to turn fully into acetates.

 

[Whataboutbob]

https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/salt-and-our-health/

 

[Whataboutbob]

03/07/2018 - Session 4 - David McCarron : Health and Medicine Division

 

[Travis]

Does the Weston A. Price Foundation Really Have Your Health In Mind? - Modern Alternative Mama

Physiological Mechanisms: Underlying High Salt Diets and Cancer - The Paleo Diet™

 

[Amazoniac]

Tipping the hatties for the @aguilaroja

Severe hyperkalemia associated with “alternative” nutritional cancer therapy - ScienceDirect

"A 52-year-old man was hospitalized in January 2005 with recurrent Hodgkin lymphoma. He had a 6-year history of diabetic mellitus and rheumatoid arthritis and the onset of Hodgkin lymphoma 10 months ago. He received four cycles of salvage chemotherapy (etoposide, vincristine, doxorubicin, cyclophosphamide, and prednisolone) and achieved a second remission in April 2005 before he was discharged from the hospital."

"Two weeks after discharge, he was readmitted to receive high-dose chemotherapy for Hodgkin lymphoma."

"The patient reported that he had Gerson therapy at home. He took 2 l of freshly prepared juices from carrot and apple everyday for 12 days, until the day when he was hospitalized. He consumed 4–5kg of carrots and 200–300 g of apple everyday. The estimated intake of potassium was as more than 16,000 mg per day. After discontinuation of the Gerson therapy and continuation of the [↓ Travisoord!] medications, serum potassium levels remained normal."

"The hyperkalemia was treated with calcium gluconate, sodium bicarbonate, and glucose and insulin for 2 days. Nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs), both meloxican and loxoprofen, were stopped. Serum potassium decreased to normal levels after 5-day treatment with saline infusion."

"Elevated serum potassium levels are common in diabetic patients.2 Possible etiologies include chronic renal failure, microvascular complications, hyporeninemic hypoaldosteronism, insulin deficiency/resistance, and the use of antikaliuretic drugs such as potassium-sparing diuretics and angiotensin-converting enzyme inhibitors.2,3 NSAIDs can induce hyperkalemia by decreasing aldosterone synthesis, renal blood flow, and glomerular filtration rate.4 Apple and orange juices contain a lot of potassium. Excessive intake of apple or orange juices cause hyperkalemia, especially in diabetic patients on antikaliuretic drugs.3,5 In our case, excessive intake of carrot/apple juices combined with underlying diabetes and the use of NSAIDs is likely the cause of severe hyperkalemia."​

I don't know if this person was supplementing some, but if he wasn't you have to add..


..if my calculations are right: 28 g of potassium a day from supplements alone. I'm baffled.

I'll leave this in part as a warning, but other part supporting that even very high potassium intakes are safe if the conditions are right.

There is a mistake there, I assumed this solution was prepared for someone's day when it's not. People only take up to 40 teaspoons a day from the powder dissolved in a quart of water (192 teaspoons total). From the Buch:

"Potassium composition (ten per cent) is administered immediately; four teaspoonfuls ten times daily in all juices, except liver juice, mostly for three to four weeks, according to the previous degree of the disease. Then the amount of potassium is reduced to half."​

Then I came across this:

The Gerson Therapy: The Proven Nutritional Program for Cancer and Other Illnesses (1-57566-628-6) - Charlotte Gerson and Morton Walker

"Particularly in the initial stages of treatment, Gerson patients ingest significant potassium supplementation of up to 150 mEq [5850 mg]/day. Even in the presence of elevated potassium serum levels, it's necessary to continue K supplementation. Dr. Gerson tells us that K ions are indispensable in certain enzymatic reactions and K plays a role in tissue protein synthesis. Normally, muscles, brain, and liver possess much higher K content than Na content. As long as K remains normal, Na is diminished, and that's maintaining a healthy state."

"At the Gerson Therapy hospitals, after blood testing upon the patient's hospital admission, 10 percent potassium solution is administered immediately. The K administration takes the form of 4 teaspoonfuls ten times daily added to all juices, and this dose usually continues for three to four weeks. Then the amount of K is reduced to half. Presenting a warning, Dr. Gerson says, "The combination of the blood level with the clinical observations
teaches us that the restoration of the potassium content in the organs is a difficult and long-drawn-out process."10"

"A compound solution of potassium salts is made from 33 grams (g) each of potassium acetate, monophosphate, and gluconate, diluted in 32 ounces of distilled water. As stated, dosages vary from 1 to 4 teaspoonfuls (tsp), representing from 3.5 to 14 grams of K per day. This medication is added in equal amounts to each of the carrot/apple, greens, and orange juices (but not to the pure carrot juices) daily, about 1 to 4 tsp per juice drink."

"Store the potassium solution in a glass container rather than in plastic or metal. It needs no refrigeration but should be held in a dark closet (pantry) or stored in a brown- or amber-colored bottle or jar. One quart of potassium solution will last from one to three weeks, depending on the prescribed dosage. Discard any of the remaining potassium solution and replace it if, after some time has elapsed, it becomes cloudy."​

They claim that 10 teaspoons provide 3.5 grams of elemental potassium: 0.35 g/teaspoon.

If 32 oz contains 192 teaspoons:
192 * 0.35 = 67.2 grams of elemental potassium in a quart of solution

It's possible that I have missed something else like hydration of salts, but the value above is confusing to me considering that the total amount of potassium salts added is only 100 grams. Potassium gluconate for example provides little potassium in relation to gluconate.

What am I missing?

 

[jzeno]

@Amazoniac

The perfect diet?



Low salt
High K
High Fiber (moving)
Macros are met
Low fat
Low PUFA

Throw some OJ, fresh fruit, juices in there and maybe some other stuff (meat, cheese, fish) and you got yourself the making of something good.

One thing is excessive Fe.

 

[Mossy]

@Amazoniac

The perfect diet?

View attachment 12485

Low salt
High K
High Fiber (moving)
Macros are met
Low fat
Low PUFA

Throw some OJ, fresh fruit, juices in there and maybe some other stuff (meat, cheese, fish) and you got yourself the making of something good.

One thing is excessive Fe.

Wow, that’s pretty crazy—an all liquid diet that meets most requirements. I could see some potential digestive issues with that much prune juice. At a quick glance, the only other issues I could see would be not enough protein for some, and the calcium to phosphate ratio. Otherwise, most RDAs are met.