11-keto DHT - Adrenosterone Derivative For Lab/R&D Use

[Wagner83]

Yes, I'm working on all of those.

Half of those sups are to support the higher doses of caffeine (Niac, Asp, Thiam, Vitamins), but the dht/pansterone/tyromix were a short experiment based on my suspicions about high estrogen.

The caffeine has done wonders for my ability to store glycogen, but my biggest challenge has always been getting enough calories without too much liquid as I'm extremely active, which has made it very difficult to go low fat without a stress response. I tried cypro, but it really dulls the world, so I only use it in emergency situations.

As my glycogen stores improved with high-dose caffeine + K2, it allowed me to eat 3500-4000 calories per day without having to resort to ice cream, so I'm currently working on lowering the fat.

The main problem with caffeine is that it ramps up metabolism quickly releasing ffas which can wreak havoc if not limited. So the caffeine can continue to work its magic, but without cutting out fat (pufa), it appears to be a viscous cycle (at least short term).

After reading through a few more threads last night, I'm just not buying the low-estrogen theory, especially given Haidut's high-T protocol where he claimed to see no symptoms of low-E.

Sexuality And Libido Through A Peat Prism

Looks like all of this hinges on liver-health, so I'll just have to bite the bullet and cut fat down to 10%. Cheers!

Ok, as of now my experience points to fat being correlated with estrogens, taht could change though . Haidut himself said such high T levels were not recommended because of the tendency to turn into estrogens the higher you go, he had incredible libido which could go well with high estrogens too.
I have experienced the so called "low estrogens/low cortisol" issues a few times, white button mushrooms in big doses can do it as well (over two or three days), I don't know if the issues arise directly from low estrogens or cortisol but I do think the latter at least trigger whatever negative stuff happens in the body, too many anecdotical feedback and different substances have done this.
Low-fat + no or low starch is a burden for sure.

 

[theLaw]

Ok, as of now my experience points to fat being correlated with estrogens, taht could change though . Haidut himself said such high T levels were not recommended because of the tendency to turn into estrogens the higher you go, he had incredible libido which could go well with high estrogens too.
I have experienced the so called "low estrogens/low cortisol" issues a few times, white button mushrooms in big doses can do it as well (over two or three days), I don't know if the issues arise directly from low estrogens or cortisol but I do think the latter at least trigger whatever negative stuff happens in the body, too many anecdotical feedback and different substances have done this.
Low-fat + no or low starch is a burden for sure.

My understanding is that E driven libido feels very different from T driven libido, so I would assume that Haidut would know the difference.

I'm starting to wonder if my symptoms were actually caused by a flood of E being dumped from my liver or other organs. One day later I've noticed crystal-clear vision all day/night, and my voice is lower today.

Also, going from 800mg to zero caffeine has caused no negative symptoms like when I stopped cold-turkey in the past, so it looks like my liver is improving.

Maybe I should have just pushed through, but I have a bad habit of pushing something until it breaks, so better to be cautious.

 

[Jsaute21]

My understanding is that E driven libido feels very different from T driven libido, so I would assume that Haidut would know the difference.

I'm starting to wonder if my symptoms were actually caused by a flood of E being dumped from my liver or other organs. One day later I've noticed crystal-clear vision all day/night, and my voice is lower today.

Also, going from 800mg to zero caffeine has caused no negative symptoms like when I stopped cold-turkey in the past, so it looks like my liver is improving.

Maybe I should have just pushed through, but I have a bad habit of pushing something until it breaks, so better to be cautious.

How much caffeine do you currently consume and what do you find to be a good sweet spot? I have been going upwards of 600-800 the past month or so and feel pretty good on it. Sometimes a bit over Active physically and restless which can be annoying.

 

[theLaw]

How much caffeine do you currently consume and what do you find to be a good sweet spot? I have been going upwards of 600-800 the past month or so and feel pretty good on it. Sometimes a bit over Active physically and restless which can be annoying.

After my libido tanked, I decided to cut the caffeine for a while, but I was at around 800mg per day. I didn't notice a particular difference between a 200mg dose and a 400mg dose, and felt pretty good on both.

I think that caffeine is pretty risky if other issues exist, but I'm also not sure if adding K-2 and upping the dose wouldn't quickly resolve a number of those issues if someone pushed through the stress reactions.

Most of this would come from the increased metabolism and the burning of pufas, which could cause some pretty nasty stress reactions.

Here is a post from VOS detailing how to safely remove pufas:

Formula for calories

Coffee might be an entirely different story, so I think that caffeine is more of a supplement for short-term use. Haidut was able to use it effectively, but he also did an enormous amount of work to improve his health before adding high-dose caffeine (low-fat, cut out starch, high carb).

The longevity research that Haidut posted suggested 600-1200mg/day.

Caffeine extends lifespan in animal model by 52%

 

[allnightlong888]

is this still available in idealabs store?

 

[Peater]

is this still available in idealabs store?

PM Haidut

 

[Wagner83]

A 9-10 months old bottle may have lost potency, either this or other factors reduce efficiency. @haidut I remember that months old bottles were fine for you but curious if you've tried as much as 10 months for steroids? If other members have I'm curious too.

 

[Peater]

@haidut

I've got your new formula 11-keto DHT, with ethanol and SFA esters instead of DMSO. I've seen references to '10x more potent with DMSO' which I'm not querying, but just if the new formula needs more drops per day for an equivalent dosage of the old formula.

Also, how long does it take to be absorbed through the skin?

Cheers!

 

[haidut]

@haidut

I've got your new formula 11-keto DHT, with ethanol and SFA esters instead of DMSO. I've seen references to '10x more potent with DMSO' which I'm not querying, but just if the new formula needs more drops per day for an equivalent dosage of the old formula.

Also, how long does it take to be absorbed through the skin?

Cheers!

The studies I have seen claims similar/same absorption with the SFA ester + ethanol compared to DMSO/ethanol. So, it should be comparable in terms absorption and also seems to dry out faster. Maybe 5min would be enough. Some people reported experiencing the same effects from the same dose across the DMSO and the new solvent so it seems to be pretty comparable drop for drop.

 

[haidut]

A 9-10 months old bottle may have lost potency, either this or other factors reduce efficiency. @haidut I remember that months old bottles were fine for you but curious if you've tried as much as 10 months for steroids? If other members have I'm curious too.

I have not tested 10 months or older 11-keto DHT but have tested Progestene and Pansterone and they seemed to not have diminished in potency. What did happen it that if bottle was left with without the cap and in warm weather some of the alcohol evaporated.

 

[Wagner83]

I have not tested 10 months or older 11-keto DHT but have tested Progestene and Pansterone and they seemed to not have diminished in potency. What did happen it that if bottle was left with without the cap and in warm weather some of the alcohol evaporated.

Ok.

Have you seen those?

A new dawn for androgens: Novel lessons from 11-oxygenated C19 steroids - ScienceDirect

Steroid ____AVSa (nmol/L) ___ Controlsb (nmol/L) __ 21OHDb (nmol/L)
DHEAS ___3827 ± 1317_____3793.4 (1585.1–5066.5) _____508.7 (213.0–1745.2)
DHEA____ 125 ± 56.9______6.0 (4.1–11.0)____ 1.0 (0.55–2.9)
A4____ 79.0 ± 46.9______1.5 (0.77–2.2) _____ 5.4 (2.5–13.6)
T ____0.78 ± 0.26 _______0.90 (0.42–10.7) ______2.8 (1.3–5.6)
11OHA4 ___157 ± 96.2 _____3.9 (2.3–5.1) ______ 11.6 (6.2–26.2)
11KA4____ 0.99 ± 0.33 _____ 1.0 (0.67–1.4) _____ 3.2 (1.9–4.8)
11OHT____ 0.48 ± 0.17 _____ 0.49 (0.30–0.69) _____ 1.9 (0.69–3.4)
11KT______ 0.39 ± 0.09 ______ 1.7 (0.96–2.6) _____ 5.7 (3.5–12.1)

"
Moreover, the circulating pool of 11OHT and 11KT was found to be similar in men and women, thereby confirming that the adrenal is likely the primary site of 11OHT biosynthesis and that gonadal T is not an important precursor (Turcu et al., 2016). Even though the adrenal expresses low levels of 11βHSD2, differences in the concentration of the individual 11-oxygenated steroids in the adrenal vein and inferior vena cava suggest that while 11OHA4 and 11OHT are products of the adrenal, 11KA4 and 11KT may be formed in peripheral target tissues of androgen action rather than in the adrenal glands (Rege et al., 2013; Turcu et al., 2016).
"
A general loss of interest in the function of 11-oxygenated C19 steroids in mammals followed and 11OHA4 and its metabolites have, in most cases, been left out of the steroidogenic scheme, despite 11OHA4 being an abundant product of adrenal steroidogenesis (Table 1) (Rege et al., 2013)
"
"In 2008, Yazawa et al. showed that CYP11B1 expression could be induced in both Leydig cells and ovarian theca cells from immature mice by treatment with human chorionic gonadotropinin, leading to the production of 11OHT and 11KT (Yazawa et al., 2008)."

"We therefore measured the metabolism of both 11KT and 11KDHT in LNCaP and VCaP cells. Interestingly, we found that while T and DHT were rapidly inactivated by both cell lines, the metabolism of 11KT and 11KDHT occurred at a significantly lower rate."

"The so called “backdoor pathway” is an additional pathway for DHT biosynthesis, where adrenal 17OH-PROG can be converted to DHT without DHEA, androstenedione or T as intermediates and appears to play an important role during male sexual differentiation (Arlt et al., 2004; Auchus, 2004; Flück et al., 2011; Wilson et al., 2003). Accumulation of 17OH-PROG, as in patients with 21OHD, could reopen the backdoor pathway"

"Recently, Turcu and colleagues showed that the levels of four 11-oxygenated C19 steroids, 11OHA4, 11KA4, 11OHT and 11KT, are significantly (3- to 4-fold) elevated in both male and female patients with classic 21OHD when compared to age-matched controls (Table 2). The authors suggest that since 11KT is an active androgen, this steroid may be clinically relevant to the hyperandrogenism associated with 21OHD. Significantly, it was shown that 11KT tended to correlate inversely with T in males with 21OHD, strongly suggesting that 11KT was able to suppress gonadotropins and T production from the testes in men (Turcu et al., 2016). This finding supports the idea that 11KT is capable of eliciting physiological effects."


---------------------------------

Profiling adrenal 11β-hydroxyandrostenedione metabolites in prostate cancer cells, tissue and plasma: UPC2-MS/MS quantification of 11β-hydroxytesto... - PubMed - NCBI

In tissue, we detected C11-oxy C19 metabolites at significantly higher levels than the C19 steroids, with unconjugated 11KDHT, 11KT and 11OHA4 levels ranging between 13 and 37.5ng/g. Analyses of total steroid levels in plasma showed significant levels of 11OHA4 (≈230-440nM), 11KT (≈250-390nM) and 11KDHT (≈19nM). DHT levels (<0.14nM) were significantly lower. In summary, 11β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 2 activity in PNT2 cells was substantially lower than in LNCaP cells, reflected in the conversion of 11OHA4 and 11OHT. Enzyme substrate preferences suggest that the alternate pathway is dominant in normal prostate cells. Glucuronidation activity was not detected in PNT2 cells and while all T derivatives were efficiently conjugated in LNCaP cells, 11KT was not. Substantial 11KT levels were also detected in both PCa tissue and plasma.

 

[Peater]

The studies I have seen claims similar/same absorption with the SFA ester + ethanol compared to DMSO/ethanol. So, it should be comparable in terms absorption and also seems to dry out faster. Maybe 5min would be enough. Some people reported experiencing the same effects from the same dose across the DMSO and the new solvent so it seems to be pretty comparable drop for drop.

Thanks for clearing that up mate.

 

[haidut]

Ok.

Have you seen those?

A new dawn for androgens: Novel lessons from 11-oxygenated C19 steroids - ScienceDirect

Steroid ____AVSa (nmol/L) ___ Controlsb (nmol/L) __ 21OHDb (nmol/L)
DHEAS ___3827 ± 1317_____3793.4 (1585.1–5066.5) _____508.7 (213.0–1745.2)
DHEA____ 125 ± 56.9______6.0 (4.1–11.0)____ 1.0 (0.55–2.9)
A4____ 79.0 ± 46.9______1.5 (0.77–2.2) _____ 5.4 (2.5–13.6)
T ____0.78 ± 0.26 _______0.90 (0.42–10.7) ______2.8 (1.3–5.6)
11OHA4 ___157 ± 96.2 _____3.9 (2.3–5.1) ______ 11.6 (6.2–26.2)
11KA4____ 0.99 ± 0.33 _____ 1.0 (0.67–1.4) _____ 3.2 (1.9–4.8)
11OHT____ 0.48 ± 0.17 _____ 0.49 (0.30–0.69) _____ 1.9 (0.69–3.4)
11KT______ 0.39 ± 0.09 ______ 1.7 (0.96–2.6) _____ 5.7 (3.5–12.1)

"
Moreover, the circulating pool of 11OHT and 11KT was found to be similar in men and women, thereby confirming that the adrenal is likely the primary site of 11OHT biosynthesis and that gonadal T is not an important precursor (Turcu et al., 2016). Even though the adrenal expresses low levels of 11βHSD2, differences in the concentration of the individual 11-oxygenated steroids in the adrenal vein and inferior vena cava suggest that while 11OHA4 and 11OHT are products of the adrenal, 11KA4 and 11KT may be formed in peripheral target tissues of androgen action rather than in the adrenal glands (Rege et al., 2013; Turcu et al., 2016).
"
A general loss of interest in the function of 11-oxygenated C19 steroids in mammals followed and 11OHA4 and its metabolites have, in most cases, been left out of the steroidogenic scheme, despite 11OHA4 being an abundant product of adrenal steroidogenesis (Table 1) (Rege et al., 2013)
"
"In 2008, Yazawa et al. showed that CYP11B1 expression could be induced in both Leydig cells and ovarian theca cells from immature mice by treatment with human chorionic gonadotropinin, leading to the production of 11OHT and 11KT (Yazawa et al., 2008)."

"We therefore measured the metabolism of both 11KT and 11KDHT in LNCaP and VCaP cells. Interestingly, we found that while T and DHT were rapidly inactivated by both cell lines, the metabolism of 11KT and 11KDHT occurred at a significantly lower rate."

"The so called “backdoor pathway” is an additional pathway for DHT biosynthesis, where adrenal 17OH-PROG can be converted to DHT without DHEA, androstenedione or T as intermediates and appears to play an important role during male sexual differentiation (Arlt et al., 2004; Auchus, 2004; Flück et al., 2011; Wilson et al., 2003). Accumulation of 17OH-PROG, as in patients with 21OHD, could reopen the backdoor pathway"

"Recently, Turcu and colleagues showed that the levels of four 11-oxygenated C19 steroids, 11OHA4, 11KA4, 11OHT and 11KT, are significantly (3- to 4-fold) elevated in both male and female patients with classic 21OHD when compared to age-matched controls (Table 2). The authors suggest that since 11KT is an active androgen, this steroid may be clinically relevant to the hyperandrogenism associated with 21OHD. Significantly, it was shown that 11KT tended to correlate inversely with T in males with 21OHD, strongly suggesting that 11KT was able to suppress gonadotropins and T production from the testes in men (Turcu et al., 2016). This finding supports the idea that 11KT is capable of eliciting physiological effects."


---------------------------------

Profiling adrenal 11β-hydroxyandrostenedione metabolites in prostate cancer cells, tissue and plasma: UPC2-MS/MS quantification of 11β-hydroxytesto... - PubMed - NCBI

In tissue, we detected C11-oxy C19 metabolites at significantly higher levels than the C19 steroids, with unconjugated 11KDHT, 11KT and 11OHA4 levels ranging between 13 and 37.5ng/g. Analyses of total steroid levels in plasma showed significant levels of 11OHA4 (≈230-440nM), 11KT (≈250-390nM) and 11KDHT (≈19nM). DHT levels (<0.14nM) were significantly lower. In summary, 11β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 2 activity in PNT2 cells was substantially lower than in LNCaP cells, reflected in the conversion of 11OHA4 and 11OHT. Enzyme substrate preferences suggest that the alternate pathway is dominant in normal prostate cells. Glucuronidation activity was not detected in PNT2 cells and while all T derivatives were efficiently conjugated in LNCaP cells, 11KT was not. Substantial 11KT levels were also detected in both PCa tissue and plasma.

I think any strong androgen agonist has the potential to lower endogenous T/DHT levels through negative feedback in the gonads. The Leydig cells have high concentration of androgen receptors thought to be used for that negative feedback. People who use potent AAS all have issues with low T and DHT and so far it was thought that this was cause by suppression of pituitary gonadotropins. But I think the gonadal receptor feedback is just as important, if not the primary, mechanism.

 

[UltraSuperior]

I think any strong androgen agonist has the potential to lower endogenous T/DHT levels through negative feedback in the gonads. The Leydig cells have high concentration of androgen receptors thought to be used for that negative feedback. People who use potent AAS all have issues with low T and DHT and so far it was thought that this was cause by suppression of pituitary gonadotropins. But I think the gonadal receptor feedback is just as important, if not the primary, mechanism.

I want to try this. Haidut, please PM me as I'm unable to contact you

 

[IhateFin]

Does this stuff in tease ejaculation the way that proviron does?

 

[IhateFin]

Increase*

 

[IhateFin]

Increase*

 

[theLaw]

After my libido tanked, I decided to cut the caffeine for a while, but I was at around 800mg per day. I didn't notice a particular difference between a 200mg dose and a 400mg dose, and felt pretty good on both.

I think that caffeine is pretty risky if other issues exist, but I'm also not sure if adding K-2 and upping the dose wouldn't quickly resolve a number of those issues if someone pushed through the stress reactions.

Most of this would come from the increased metabolism and the burning of pufas, which could cause some pretty nasty stress reactions.

Here is a post from VOS detailing how to safely remove pufas:

Formula for calories

Coffee might be an entirely different story, so I think that caffeine is more of a supplement for short-term use. Haidut was able to use it effectively, but he also did an enormous amount of work to improve his health before adding high-dose caffeine (low-fat, cut out starch, high carb).

The longevity research that Haidut posted suggested 600-1200mg/day.

Caffeine extends lifespan in animal model by 52%

Just a quick update (minus the 11-Keto DHT) :

After removing high-dose caffeine my libido is back to about 80% with the help of Tyromix (6 drops) throughout the day. Sleep is also greatly improved (deep sleep consistently), and all Adrenalin issues have disappeared.

Also using 2 drops of pansterone + 3 drops k2 near groin area, but not directly on scrotum.

Finally, I added BCAAs which has resolved 90% of my digestive issues, and I'm working toward adding more milk in hopes of making it a significant portion of my diet.

Still get <100mg caffeine in Pepsi, but no more powder until liver health improves.

Cheers!

 

[Regina]

Just a quick update (minus the 11-Keto DHT) :

After removing high-dose caffeine my libido is back to about 80% with the help of Tyromix (6 drops) throughout the day. Sleep is also greatly improved (deep sleep consistently), and all Adrenalin issues have disappeared.

Also using 2 drops of pansterone + 3 drops k2 near groin area, but not directly on scrotum.

Finally, I added BCAAs which has resolved 90% of my digestive issues, and I'm working toward adding more milk in hopes of making it a significant portion of my diet.

Still get <100mg caffeine in Pepsi, but no more powder until liver health improves.

Cheers!

what dosage do you take BCAAs? I have Optimum Nutrition 1000mg per 2 capsules. Thx

 

[theLaw]

Good general guide:

Amino Acid Supplementation For People With Poor Digestion

I used around 5g (mix) for each meal. Took about a week to see a significant difference. I was already around 100g protein per day so I didn't want to overdo it.

Also added 1t of mct oil with each meal which seemed to help as well.