11-keto DHT - Adrenosterone Derivative For Lab/R&D Use

[Dan010101]

There is no need to put any steroid on face for masculine effects. Oral/topical vitamin K and some of the androgenic steroids (also oral or topical anywhere) have been reported to cause more masculine jaw features.

How long does it take for these changes to become apparent? I have been on kuinone since tuesday and have noticed a slight decrease in water retention but no jaw feature changes yet.

 

[Wagner83]

My adrenaline issues are gone. I've discovered that when you have low estrogen and high DHT, you tend towards adrenaline. Dosing a little bit of Pansterone has fixed the adrenaline issue and raised temps as well.

Ok thanks, what about effects on health in general?
How much do you use now , did you reduce the dose?

 

[opethfeldt]

Ok thanks, what about effects on health in general?
How much do you use now , did you reduce the dose?

I've settled on 15mg. I guess my rat just needs more than most. I notice more effects on my subject when doses over 10mg are taken. I think there's probably a lot of variance in what doses are optimal for each person. As for the effects, I've mostly noticed a continuation of the effects noticed a few months back. Increased leg and arm hair. More assertive. Calmer. One thing that needs to be stressed is the need to have a small amount of estrogen. Even high doses do little to nothing if you have no estrogen in terms of mental effects. I think you'd still get the physical benefits, though.

 

[Wagner83]

I've settled on 15mg. I guess my rat just needs more than most. I notice more effects on my subject when doses over 10mg are taken. I think there's probably a lot of variance in what doses are optimal for each person. As for the effects, I've mostly noticed a continuation of the effects noticed a few months back. Increased leg and arm hair. More assertive. Calmer. One thing that needs to be stressed is the need to have a small amount of estrogen. Even high doses do little to nothing if you have no estrogen in terms of mental effects. I think you'd still get the physical benefits, though.

It sounds like pansterone provides that. I remember we had discussed before you started 11-keto, you were using pansterone + androsterone and were quite happy with it, how would you compare this combination with 11-keto? What differences do you notice?

 

[opethfeldt]

It sounds like pansterone provides that. I remember we had discussed before you started 11-keto, you were using pansterone + androsterone and were quite happy with it, how would you compare this combination with 11-keto? What differences do you notice?

I get more physical effects from pansterone and androsterone. Harder muscles. Muscle fullness. Strength. The 11-keto has more mental effects. Confidence, drive, good mood, calm. I think most people would be best served with androsterone and pansterone as a combo. Cheaper, too. Just make sure to dose in no more than a 1:1 ratio of andro to Pansterone because it loses all benefit if that ratio is exceeded. I still maintain that the best way to raise androgens is appropriately dosed thyroid, however. Some people will respond better to thyroid and others will benefit more from direct supplementation of steroids.

 

[Peater]

Is this available to order at the moment? I'm keen to try it out, the Ideal Labs site shows only Androsterone at the moment - it doesn't look like quite the same thing

Also it looks like the order process is manual so let me know what's involved and we'll go from there

 

[tankasnowgod]

Is this available to order at the moment? I'm keen to try it out, the Ideal Labs site shows only Androsterone at the moment - it doesn't look like quite the same thing

Also it looks like the order process is manual so let me know what's involved and we'll go from there

Look over the past few pages in the thread. Asked and answered several times.

 

[Peater]

Look over the past few pages in the thread. Asked and answered several times.

Doh - thanks

 

[Wagner83]

I get more physical effects from pansterone and androsterone. Harder muscles. Muscle fullness. Strength. The 11-keto has more mental effects. Confidence, drive, good mood, calm. I think most people would be best served with androsterone and pansterone as a combo. Cheaper, too. Just make sure to dose in no more than a 1:1 ratio of andro to Pansterone because it loses all benefit if that ratio is exceeded. I still maintain that the best way to raise androgens is appropriately dosed thyroid, however. Some people will respond better to thyroid and others will benefit more from direct supplementation of steroids.

There a few horrific stories about supplementing thyroid out there, however for some it seems to work well, I don't like the idea of depending on cytomel, cynomel or any thyroid products to function. Androsterone seemed to have strong effects on mind on my rat, 0 depression but also feeling good doing nothing, I mean like a baseball bat hitting you behind the head and then life is beautiful, too much would make the rat irritable. 11-keto-dht was much smoother and positive in its effects, not sure it has less physical effects for my rat, but it can quickly eat energy reserves and as you said low estrogens/cortisol can have its negative downsides.

 

[outtherebrother]

Considering buying my rat some of this, what are the differences between this and androsterone? My rat has been dosed 2 mg twice a day of androsterone on his wrists. He doesn't seem to act much differently.

 

[Digger]

looking for this as well. Tried to message haidut, but I keep getting an error.

 

[charlie]

Tried to message haidut, but I keep getting an error.

What kind of error?

 

[Digger]

says my message appears as spam.. However, I thought it was written rather nicely. Thanks for the quick reply

 

[satsumass]

I am having a heck of a time dosing 11-Keto on my rat. Hoping for help. I take 150-250mg of TRT weekly. Did well on 50-100mg mesterolone minimal sides.

With 11-keto I cannot determine and isolate effects as much. I am big, 250lbs muscular and beefy, so assume higher might be better. But can't determine if It is tanking estrogen (I don't get joint pain but rarely do on anything.) Or not doing much at all...Have history of bipolar depression and on meds so hard to disambiguate.

Maybe it is time for labs but I'd appreciate others dosing experience.

Would it be worth trying a much larger dose to see if I can really tell?

I do take pansterone and 50mg oral preg, and a couple drops of tocopherol androsterone on skin.

I dose keto on skin variously but mostly on genitals...Wondering if that might have negative effects.

 

[Peater]

says my message appears as spam.. However, I thought it was written rather nicely. Thanks for the quick reply

Mine seems to have got through, but I haven't had a reply yet although I appreciate Haidut is busy, and it may have been spammed on his side of the PM system

 

[Digger]

Mine seems to have got through, but I haven't had a reply yet although I appreciate Haidut is busy, and it may have been spammed on his side of the PM system

Mine went through later that day. Pretty sure it was due to having a new account. im in the same boat tho, still waiting to hear back. Im sure hes just busy.

I can say im excited to try this on my rats gyno.

 

[DaveFoster]

Just read this from the 5ar/PFS thread, suggests dht is created from T due to stress and estrogen overload:

I don't say dht is cause of hairloss... But lack of protective nutrients like triiodothyronine and progesterone...

German papers clearly state that hypothyroidism is the starting point to male pattern baldness... If this hypothyroid person has good levels of Progesterone... so then he or she will be protected since progesterone is one of most potent aromatase inhibitors and progesterone is protective against hypothyroidism...helping body not raise estrogen so then body doesn't need to convert testosterone into dht to fight estrogen and stress.

The general idea from Dr. Peat's books and writings concerning progesterone follows that sufficient progesterone fills in for thyroid when needed, and large amounts can be just as protective. He regularly mentions how progesterone needs tend to be met with thyroid, and that they tend to decrease with increased thyroid function.

He has mentioned that in particularly precarious physiological states (due to ill-health of the mother, toxins, radiation, chronic stress and hypothyroidism, aging, etc.), supplementation of all the precursors (pregnenolone, progesterone, and DHEA) along with thyroid, and an elimination of starch along with antibiotic therapies can maintain a healthy state. The use of downstream steroids like testosterone, androsterone, and DHT can fill in where needed, and in certain circumstances (such as chemotherapy or chronic degenerative conditions), physiological or supraphysiological doses of these compounds may be merited.

 

[theLaw]

Well, it appears that I might have tanked my Estrogen.

Here's what I was taking per day:

11-Keto DHT = 5mg (am) and 5mg (pm) - loading dose for the first week followed by 5mg per day
Pansterone = 5mg (single dose)
Tyromix = 3 drops (1 drop 3 times per day)
Tocovit = 400iu (single dose)
Estroban = single dose
Vitamin A = 100,000iu
Vitamin K - 15-45mg
Caffeine = 400mg twice a day (800mg total)
Aspirin = 1-2G
Niacinamide = 1500mg (split throughout the day)
Thiamine = 1500mg (split throughout the day)

*Note that I used all of the above at different times in the past with no negative responses, so might just have been the combo.

Symptoms: (First few days I felt fantastic. Tons of energy + great libido + sings of increased T (less belly fat + better flaccid hang) crystal-clear vision + better skin tone - thicker facial hair)


Then after a few days:

-first my digestion ground to a complete halt with a meal of beef liver + ice cream (literally to a point where I almost had to vomit to clear out my stomach after a couple of hours)
-libido tanked
-erections gone (not even morning wood as normal) and penis just numb
-tired + irritable (sleeping 10+hrs per day)

After reading about the Low-E debate on other threads, not sure how to view this. Stopped all sups, and currently testing large dose aspirin for a couple of days to see if it's possibly inflammation from low Cortisol.

Still seems like I'm missing something here, and would greatly appreciate any ideas or advice. @haidut or anyone else - Thanks!

One final note: not sure how to spot the point where Estrogen falls too low, as low libido is the only major noticeable symptom.

 

[Wagner83]

Well, it appears that I might have tanked my Estrogen.

Here's what I was taking per day:

11-Keto DHT = 5mg (am) and 5mg (pm) - loading dose for the first week followed by 5mg per day
Pansterone = 5mg (single dose)
Tyromix = 3 drops (1 drop 3 times per day)
Tocovit = 400iu (single dose)
Estroban = single dose
Vitamin A = 100,000iu
Vitamin K - 15-45mg
Caffeine = 400mg twice a day (800mg total)
Aspirin = 1-2G
Niacinamide = 1500mg (split throughout the day)
Thiamine = 1500mg (split throughout the day)

Why do you take all of these supplements? I thought you were working on fixing the liver , depleting Pufas and improving diet as many of your posts suggested. Was the experiment not conclusive enough?

 

[theLaw]

Yes, I'm working on all of those.

Half of those sups are to support the higher doses of caffeine (Niac, Asp, Thiam, Vitamins), but the dht/pansterone/tyromix were a short experiment based on my suspicions about high estrogen.

The caffeine has done wonders for my ability to store glycogen, but my biggest challenge has always been getting enough calories without too much liquid as I'm extremely active, which has made it very difficult to go low fat without a stress response. I tried cypro, but it really dulls the world, so I only use it in emergency situations.

As my glycogen stores improved with high-dose caffeine + K2, it allowed me to eat 3500-4000 calories per day without having to resort to ice cream, so I'm currently working on lowering the fat.

The main problem with caffeine is that it ramps up metabolism quickly releasing ffas which can wreak havoc if not limited. So the caffeine can continue to work its magic, but without cutting out fat (pufa), it appears to be a viscous cycle (at least short term).

After reading through a few more threads last night, I'm just not buying the low-estrogen theory, especially given Haidut's high-T protocol where he claimed to see no symptoms of low-E.

Sexuality And Libido Through A Peat Prism

Looks like all of this hinges on liver-health, so I'll just have to bite the bullet and cut fat down to 10%. Cheers!