11 Hours Into A Dry Fast

[yerrag]

Dry Fast: 30 hours

BG: 78mg/dl

Time:5pm

This is my first fast since implementing Ray Peats research. One thing I have noticed which I should have noticed a long time back was that RP's diet makes me respire more. I found it hard to breathe silently. It was only when I started fasting and my original breathing came back did I realise this. I'm theorising it's because of increase c02 in my blood. So when I end this fast and start to build back, I need to make a conscious effort to keep my breathing normal to take advantage of this extra c02.

You're doing great!

You're now on zero glycogen and new glucose is coming from breakdown of tissue. And relying also on beta-oxidation to power tissues that can run on it.

Do you notice that you have a higher heart rate? My heart rate went up from 68 to 92 during my 2-day dry fast.

On your breathing, perhaps monitoring your spO2 would give you a better idea of why your respiring loudly. Perhaps the increase in metabolism is increasing your oxygen demands, and there is a bottleneck in oxygen transport through your hemoglobin. Is your hemoglobin carrying full capacity, at 4 oxygen molecules per hemoglobin? I used to have a problem here, when I had mercury toxicity.

 

[Vinny]

You're doing great!

You're now on zero glycogen and new glucose is coming from breakdown of tissue. And relying also on beta-oxidation to power tissues that can run on it.

Do you notice that you have a higher heart rate? My heart rate went up from 68 to 92 during my 2-day dry fast.

On your breathing, perhaps monitoring your spO2 would give you a better idea of why your respiring loudly. Perhaps the increase in metabolism is increasing your oxygen demands, and there is a bottleneck in oxygen transport through your hemoglobin. Is your hemoglobin carrying full capacity, at 4 oxygen molecules per hemoglobin? I used to have a problem here, when I had mercury toxicity.

Yerrag,
You mention that Umami,s glucose is coming from breakdown of tissue.
WHAT tissue? Muscles or fat deposits?
And, if muscles are broken for sugar, this can't be good, right?

 

[yerrag]

Yerrag,
You mention that Umami,s glucose is coming from breakdown of tissue.
WHAT tissue? Muscles or fat deposits?
And, if muscles are broken for sugar, this can't be good, right?

it would not necessarily be muscle, but tissue that is composed of ptotein, where the glucogenic amino acid is used to produce sugar thru gluconeogenesis. And it's helpful as it provides sugar, and it also uses up senescent tissue. Fat tissue becomes free fatty acids through lipolysis, and the fatty acid undergoes beta-oxidation.

 

[Such_Umami]

Dry Fast: 42 hours

BG: 83mg/dl

Time: 5:21am

Resting Pulse average approx: 62bpm

I think my heart rate is about normal. However, I haven't tested it during my peating diet phase. My sp02 was about 97 and that's slightly lower because I'm rarely below 99. I can also see the electrical pulse the heart beats to is much damper.

I don't believe when I'm building my increase in respiration is due to increase in oxygen need even though I'm sure it does require more oxygen: respiration is driven by blood ph. Almost everyone has plenty of oxygen but the problem we have is that we can't get that oxygen into cells. This is because the bond between oxygen and haemoglobin is strengthened in the absence of c02 making it more difficult for it to leave the haemoglobin to oxygenate cells.

As for my fast, I think I'm going to continue it until about the 100 hour mark. This is usually where I notice a cessation of kidney filtration and I believe this is because the stress on the kidneys has become too much due to a myriad of factors. When I hit this mark, I plan to water fast with added salt (30g per day) to reduce the strain on my kidneys aldosterone pathway.

 

[yerrag]

I think my heart rate is about normal. However, I haven't tested it during my peating diet phase. My sp02 was about 97 and that's slightly lower because I'm rarely below 99. I can also see the electrical pulse the heart beats to is much damper.

Heart rate is normal, but how does it compare with your non-fasting heart rate? (this is something you can check way after your fast, as you don't a prior value). I'm just curious as I don't know why my heart rate shot up to 92 fasting from 68 not fasting. Not that an increased heart rate is always good, if for example, it is caused by inefficient pumping action by the heart.

But assuming my heart is pumping efficiently, I would see my increased heart rate during the fast as an increased availability of endogenous anti-oxidants that are not used up in countering the oxidative stress from spillover ROS from phagocytic activity by neutrophils on bacteria. Perhaps the dry fast is enabling the production of LL-37 peptides that destroy bacteria, and this lessens the need for phagocytic action. But this is a situation unique to my context, and would likely not apply to you. I have a higher level of low-grade infection in my system that is recurring.

Relative to your non-fasting spO2, you are actually increasing your tissue oxygenation given that there's less O2 tested with the lower spO2 values. If you kept the oximeter on your finger longer, say for 15 minutes, you may get a wider range of spO2 values. My unit would beep when the spO2 goes below 94. It would cause the uninitiated to be alarmed, but Ray Peat sees the high 80s as indicative of very good tissue oxygenation and metabolism.

I don't believe when I'm building my increase in respiration is due to increase in oxygen need even though I'm sure it does require more oxygen: respiration is driven by blood ph. Almost everyone has plenty of oxygen but the problem we have is that we can't get that oxygen into cells. This is because the bond between oxygen and haemoglobin is strengthened in the absence of c02 making it more difficult for it to leave the haemoglobin to oxygenate cells.

The venous serum bicarbonate test gives a good indication of our serum CO2 levels. If that is showing a value near 30, serum CO2 is enough and there's less worry that your CO2 is inadequate to provide proper tissue oxygenation.

Yes, our breathing rate is determined by blood pH but not solely on it. If blood is acidic, the reflex is to breathe at a higher rate in order to expel the CO2, for CO2 is the only acid, in the form of carbonic acid, that can be expelled by the lungs. However, if breathing out CO2 still fails to increase blood pH sufficiently (making it more alkaline), the person will continue to breathe at a higher than normal rate ( around 14 bph). Moreover, expelling too much CO2 (to increase blood pH) would lead to having too little CO2, and as you had said, will make it hard for hemoglobin to release oxygen to the tissues. So, it's important that lactic acid, keto acids, uric acid (endogenous) be kept to a minimum, to allow CO2 to form a large part of the acidity in blood. And the way to achieve that is to rely largely on glucose oxidation efficiently done through oxidative mitochondrial phosphorylation.

Another reason for increased breathing rate is increased oxygen demand that requires a higher breathing rate. This is quite obvious. If you sit still, your breathing rate is lower than when you're running at a rapid clip. Same body, same context.

But since you're not walking nor running nor doing any heavy exertion, that you are breathing strongly during your fast could just mean there's something else going one, which I've tried to explain before. Could be you're relying on glycolysis more than mitochondrial oxidation, which is inefficient and uses more oxygen, or your blood is not delivering oxygen efficiently, thru oxygen being displaced by mercury in hemoglobin, or thru obstruction in the lungs that restrict free exchange of gases.

This is only my opinion. You're holding up well on the blood sugar front. It's something I should work on. Thanks for letting me know it's possible to keep sugar levels at a salutary range during a dry fast, and that I should work on improving my blood sugar regulation before going on a dry fast like you just did.

 

[TheBeard]

Dry Fast: 42 hours

BG: 83mg/dl

Time: 5:21am

Resting Pulse average approx: 62bpm

I think my heart rate is about normal. However, I haven't tested it during my peating diet phase. My sp02 was about 97 and that's slightly lower because I'm rarely below 99. I can also see the electrical pulse the heart beats to is much damper.

I don't believe when I'm building my increase in respiration is due to increase in oxygen need even though I'm sure it does require more oxygen: respiration is driven by blood ph. Almost everyone has plenty of oxygen but the problem we have is that we can't get that oxygen into cells. This is because the bond between oxygen and haemoglobin is strengthened in the absence of c02 making it more difficult for it to leave the haemoglobin to oxygenate cells.

As for my fast, I think I'm going to continue it until about the 100 hour mark. This is usually where I notice a cessation of kidney filtration and I believe this is because the stress on the kidneys has become too much due to a myriad of factors. When I hit this mark, I plan to water fast with added salt (30g per day) to reduce the strain on my kidneys aldosterone pathway.

Good job!

Don't panic if your body starts going a bit in every direction in a few hours, that's usually when the "detox" phase starts.
For me it was very cold nose and ears, fast heartbeat, insomnia, lethargy, pain in the liver and kidneys.

It subsided around the 72h mark, and I peacefully made it up to around 116h.

It's in a sense much more gentle and much harsher than a water fast. All the symptoms happen at once, but they don't last as long as during the water fast.
My limbs are always warm during a dry fast, unlike a water fast where they are freezing.

Did you make sure to fully empty your bowels before the fast with epsom salts or similar to prevent toxins recirculation?

 

[Such_Umami]

Heart rate is normal, but how does it compare with your non-fasting heart rate?

I will check this out. But I believe it's around normal.

Relative to your non-fasting spO2, you are actually increasing your tissue oxygenation given that there's less O2 tested with the lower spO2 values. If you kept the oximeter on your finger longer, say for 15 minutes, you may get a wider range of spO2 values. My unit would beep when the spO2 goes below 94. It would cause the uninitiated to be alarmed, but Ray Peat sees the high 80s as indicative of very good tissue oxygenation and metabolism

That's very interesting. Have you tried holding your breath until the number lowers? I heard that doing so increases EPO (the hormone responsible for creating haemoglobin). I tried this and it's very hard to do. But more interesting it is that the number is a marker for cell oxygenation. If that's so I would think holding your breath like this would be extremely healthy thing to do! I was wondering, do you remember where you read about this?

But since you're not walking nor running nor doing any heavy exertion, that you are breathing strongly during your fast could just mean there's something else going one, which I've tried to explain before.

I am sorry I didn't make this so clear. I'm breathing less during the fast. Or I am breathing more normally. I don't hear my breath when I breathe while meditating. I found this difficult when I was eating/building according to RP principals. This I believe is because of increased C02 from glucose oxidation and thyroid function. I only really noticed it though when I went back to normal breathing during this fast.

This is only my opinion. You're holding up well on the blood sugar front. It's something I should work on. Thanks for letting me know it's possible to keep sugar levels at a salutary range during a dry fast, and that I should work on improving my blood sugar regulation before going on a dry fast like you just did.

I believe that I am able to keep a good blood glucose levels because I have done a ton of dry fasting and water fasting in my past. I literally can't count the days, only that I've done two 28 day water fasts and at least three 5 day dry fasts. Fasts that were lesser than this I can't count because they are so numerous. In addition to this, I have done extended days on just fruit. A lot of people come here from the keto perspective but I have arrived here from a fruitarian/natural heigine perspective which is the complete opposite. Not that I believe you have to do all this to improve blood glucose during a fast, I'm sure it's much easier. I think that if you merge the perspective of natural heigine and Ray Peats material, you will have optimal nutrition which allows for detoxification as well as building because Ray Peat doesn't do much about detoxification and natural heigine doesn't do much about building.

 

[Such_Umami]

The Beard,

Yes, I find dry fasting slightly easier than water fasting. At least initially but like you said, things come at you all at once. I find that I have bouts of depression during dry fasts whereas waterfasts, I am just very hungry.

Did you make sure to fully empty your bowels before the fast with epsom salts or similar to prevent toxins recirculation?

no, I was just somewhat annoyed that I had to do the whole christmas/new year thing and by the end of it I just felt so sick of drugs/food/booze that I just wanted to get into the fast. I did hydrate myself for 8 hours prior with salt water, this helped the initial digestion and made it a lot easier to get into but ideally I would have ate fruit until I pushed all the worst stuff out before fasting.

 

[milkboi]

Can I go into this when sick with a cold?

 

[yerrag]

Can I go into this when sick with a cold?

The stress will overwhelm you.

 

[Such_Umami]

Dry Fast: 53 hours 30 minutes

BG: 82mg/dl

Time: 4:32pm

Was a lot more active today. I made a soup from the rest of the things in my kitchen and gave it to my mum and grandad. I call it Ray Peat Soup, basically it implements everything RP advocates minus the fruit and protein. I also went to the shops because I was missing some coconut cream for it.

Gonna rest up now.

 

[Vinny]

The Beard,

Yes, I find dry fasting slightly easier than water fasting. At least initially but like you said, things come at you all at once. I find that I have bouts of depression during dry fasts whereas waterfasts, I am just very hungry.



no, I was just somewhat annoyed that I had to do the whole christmas/new year thing and by the end of it I just felt so sick of drugs/food/booze that I just wanted to get into the fast. I did hydrate myself for 8 hours prior with salt water, this helped the initial digestion and made it a lot easier to get into but ideally I would have ate fruit until I pushed all the worst stuff out before fasting.

Umami, thank you very much for sharing this.
Can I ask you a couple of questions?
IsnI't such a long dry fast too taxing on the kidneys?
How old are you and what are your general health and energy levels like?

 

[Such_Umami]

Umami, thank you very much for sharing this.
Can I ask you a couple of questions?
IsnI't such a long dry fast too taxing on the kidneys?
How old are you and what are your general health and energy levels like?

I've found at about 120 hours the kidneys stop filtering out toxins so I'm going to stop it before I hit that mark. This isn't so bad though, most people aren't filtering with their kidneys anyway. I am 36, I am in pretty good health apart from some psoriasis, very athletic for my age. My energy levels are pretty good.

 

[TheBeard]

Umami, thank you very much for sharing this.
Can I ask you a couple of questions?
IsnI't such a long dry fast too taxing on the kidneys?
How old are you and what are your general health and energy levels like?

A German study measured GFR after a 5 day dry fast, the value doubled

 

[Such_Umami]

A German study measured GFR after a 5 day dry fast, the value doubled

GFR?

 

[milkboi]

The stress will overwhelm you.

Good call

 

[LLight]

GFR?

Glomerular Filtration Rate

I think @TheBeard is talking about the study https://www.researchgate.net/public...s_during_5_Days_of_Food_and_Water_Deprivation

The creatinine clearance had an increasing trend.

 

[Vinny]

Glomerular Filtration Rate

I think @TheBeard is talking about the study https://www.researchgate.net/public...s_during_5_Days_of_Food_and_Water_Deprivation

The creatinine clearance had an increasing trend.

"The mean creatinine clearance increased up to 167%."
Amazing!

 

[Vinny]

I've found at about 120 hours the kidneys stop filtering out toxins so I'm going to stop it before I hit that mark. This isn't so bad though, most people aren't filtering with their kidneys anyway. I am 36, I am in pretty good health apart from some psoriasis, very athletic for my age. My energy levels are pretty good.

Thanks for the reply, umami.
Sorry, but another question:
How do you know that your kidneys stop filtering out toxins?
Thanks

 

[Such_Umami]

Thanks for the reply, umami.
Sorry, but another question:
How do you know that your kidneys stop filtering out toxins?
Thanks

I think they are still filtering out toxins but a term which the natural heigine community uses is "kidney filtration" and you can tell if you're achieving this because your urine is very cloudy.

Not seen this full video but I think it would show you what I mean by kidney filtration: