10 points to Narouz: A Gut Bacteria Log

[Peatri Dish]

I have stumbled upon the crux of all my issues I think, quite accidentally. So, here's some background because context is everything.
I encountered Peats ideas a few years ago and have made quite a bit of progress except that I didn't really take one issue very seriously: ENDOTOXIN
Some issues that I've had lifelong are broken blood vessels on my cheeks, easily tending toward overweight...and edma, bad gums, TMJ. In short, all the things that Peat accredits to endotoxins. I first tried thyroid, increased my sugar, started drinking more juice, mostly eliminated PUFA. Results were good but the weight was always an issue. Eventually I mostly eliminated starch. The single most marked results I saw were from acetazolamide- I dropped about 10 lbs practically overnight. I was psyched, but I could not get to the bottom of what was causing the inflammation in the first place. Here are the hints that I missed: cyproheptadine was a complete failure for me first go. I swelled up like a tick! I was puffy faced, constipated and depressed. After close to 10 lbs weight gain, I said, "not for me, thanks." It also made my TMJ worse! How could this be? Gelatin made me constipated and glycine gave my diarrhea?? After about six months of Peat eating I found I could no longer tolerate vegetables-diarrhea.
So, I was cruising along pretty well this summer until I had my tooth pulled. The dentist said "Oh, you poor thing. You have a terrible bacterial infection." She said she would give me an antibiotic and get the tooth out. Having heard Peats many strictures on antibiotics, I willingly complied. Without the slightest skepticism, I took a prescription drug without any research on it. Popped those pills for about ten days. I was amazed! My gums were light pink. My tummy was flatter that it had been in years. And no more TMJ!
Fast forward one month. I've started a new job the day after a quick turn around trip to my home town to say goodbye to my dying father. I start getting diarrhea. I think "oh, it's stress." Although I'm loving the job and at peace with my dad. Not stress - the diarrhea continues for ove a month. I'm mystified. Of course, I think diet must be the issue. But nothing's changed, except that I've been drinking red bull instead of coffee in the morning and a lot of red bull during the day. My work is very busy and I'm having a great time so I don't really notice that my appetite is not what is was. Very busy, come home tired, I do a little research and discover that clindamycin, the antibiotic I took, can lead to C Diff infection. I'm vaguely remembering that this is a bad scene but I just keep working and sh**ing. Now it's maybe 10 times a day, practically water with some weird mucousy floaters in it. OK, now I'm taking this seriously. I know that acetazolamide can have diarrhea as a side effect so I discontinue that. I remember cyproheptadine and gelatin stop things up nicely so I start those and get immediate results. Again, I pile on about 10 lbs quick. Oh no...I don't want that...water weight piling on...ankles swelling. So I stop the cyproheptadine and a day later the diarrhea is back. I look into this C diff thing a little more deeply and decide to go back on cyproheptadine, start on some methylene blue and get a C diff test. So, I go to the doctor and explain the situation and she says "yes, sounds like c diff, but we can't test you unless you have diarrhea." Now at this point I know I'm fairly toxic inside. My belly has swollen up so bad I look about 5 months pregnant. But , it doesn't look like medicine has much to offer, except more intense antibiotics, with ugly side effects and a good chance of relapse. The only research that I can grasp at this point is that aspirin users are less likely to get c diff and that taurine and glycine seem to cause spores to germinate. And most disturbing, fecal transplant seems to be the go to but the FDA is resisting and using it as last resort. Meanwhile, the Internet abounds with horrifying stories of ugly deaths and fruitless medical treatments for this "superbug."
Well, I have not been tested for c diff yet because I don't have diarrhea. I have not had cyproheptadine since Monday night, it's Friday morning. With a half life of six hours, I think I'm fairly cyproheptadine free.
This is what I've concluded thus far. I've had this nasty c diff bug In me for quite some time, probably. Cyproheptadine reduced my serotonin which was doing what it was supposed to do - trying to rid my body of ugly poison. But it's also causing me a ton of inflammation along with the endotoxins. It would slow my bowel from emergency mode to normal -it works - which made everything worse for me. Peat is right again. My TMJ is endotoxin. My Rosacea is endotoxin. It's best to keep the intestines clean. No question.
I'm now awaiting the return of the diarrhea so I can do the test. Meanwhile, is the methylene blue and aspirin helping? Or am I just still enjoying the reprieve from cyproheptadine? There has to be an answer in Peatland. Because there are no answers anywhere else.

 

[PeatThemAll]

Thanks for your post.

Looks like you will be going through a battle on both fronts, as C. Difficile is a gram-positive (spore forming, when conditions get tough for it) type of bacteria, and endotoxin comes from gram-negative bacteria.

Best of luck (R&D)!

Clostridium Difficile

Endotoxin

 

[Nicholas]

the question is what does it mean to keep the intestines "clean". Is endotoxin an issue of imbalanced/overactive bacteria or is it an issue of bacteria altogether.....i'm not sure i believe Peat has reeally fully researched or explained his position on endotoxin, etc. If someone's conditions worsen under stress it would lead me to question bacteria being a negative thing altogether.....and that stress or other imbalances in life have caused the bacteria to become disruptive and toxic.

i also had an experience with what i thought to be very high serotonin as my belly ballooned one week and i went manic...and after taking antibiotics everything went away very quickly and my skin got very clear....but i'm not sure that that proves the need for a sterile gut. i had some issues following that that i wonder if it was related to the antibiotics.

 

[Nicholas]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14748878

i've also come across studies that linked starch diets (not high-fiber) to low rates of colon cancer....not that it's exactly related to your post.

 

[Parsifal]

Have you tested Cascara and the raw carrot salad?

 

[Peatri Dish]

Yup!

 

[messtafarian]

I've had endless diarrhea, tested for c. diff and was negative.

You can have NIGHTMARE diarrhea and not have c. diff. There are lots of suspicious bacteria -- salmonella, shiga toxin, e. coli's -- can all be and feel just as bad. If you do have c. diff, chances are you'd be in bad enough shape in short order to be in the ER with uncontrollable bowels and a complete loss of control over your electrolytes.

You might talk to your doc about SIBO, where *any* bacteria creeps up into the small intestine where it should be sterile. The fact that you have good response to anitbiotics and had bloating could point to that or even helicobacter -- h. pylori.

C. Diff....you'd feel *really* sick, hospital sick, pretty fast. And usually people who've gotten it have gotten it from hospitals where it likes to hang around. Add an IV antibiotic regimen to a hospital exposure and you've got c. diff. Feeling better from an antibiotic and then having a sort of relapse points to something less life threatening and more annoying.

 

[FredSonoma]

This relates to my problems so much!!!!! My health problems really started 3 years ago when I got food poisoning and bad diarrhea. I also think my #1 problem is ENDOTOXIN. I've also just started cypro (2 weeks ago) and now I'm worried it could be making it worse - the serotonin is there for a reason right?

For how much longer did you feel better after taking antibiotics? I have majorrrr bloating that seems to have gotten worse on cypro.

 

[FredSonoma]

post 106783 Cyproheptadine reduced my serotonin which was doing what it was supposed to do - trying to rid my body of ugly poison. But it's also causing me a ton of inflammation along with the endotoxins.

Are you saying that the serotonin was a result of something fked up in your gut and thus the cypro was blocking that, temporarily making you feel better, but overall actually blocking an important process in your body?

I think my endotoxin is REALLY bad right now, possibly from 2 weeks of cypro. I'm having some of the feelings I had a long long long long long time ago back when I was obsessed with "feeding my gut biome." (purposely eating prebiotics and probiotics)

What helps with reducing endotoxin? I know the raw carrot salad thing, but what about aspirin?

 

[narouz]

I will echo messtafarian:
you can have a very messed up gut
and not have c. diff

I thought I had it after taking antibiotics when I had my appendix out.
But no c. diff

But I do think taking the antibiotics you noted could be a clue.
I do think antibiotics can cause an imbalance in the gut microbiome.
Stepping outside of PeatDom,
the classic scenario is
you take antibiotics
which create a vacuum
which candida fills.

I don't know whether it's that simple,
but I do think antibiotics can cause problems.

I struggled with gut problems for a long while post antibiotics
and have pretty much gotten over that.
I have posted here and there on the forum about my "protocol" ( that makes it sound more scientific than it was).
It's late so I can't round it up here now,
but tomorrow I will try to post something about how I approached my gut issues.

Hang in there,
and thanks for the 10 pts--I need 'em!

What's your diet been like lately, Peatri?

 

[FredSonoma]

post 106925 I will echo messtafarian:
you can have a very messed up gut
and not have c. diff

I thought I had it after taking antibiotics when I had my appendix out.
But no c. diff

But I do think taking the antibiotics you noted could be a clue.
I do think antibiotics can cause an imbalance in the gut microbiome.
Stepping outside of PeatDom,
the classic scenario is
you take antibiotics
which create a vacuum
which candida fills.

I don't know whether it's that simple,
but I do think antibiotics can cause problems.

I struggled with gut problems for a long while post antibiotics
and have pretty much gotten over that.
I have posted here and there on the forum about my "protocol" ( that makes it sound more scientific than it was).
It's late so I can't round it up here now,
but tomorrow I will try to post something about how I approached my gut issues.

Hang in there,
and thanks for the 10 pts--I need 'em!

What's your diet been like lately, Peatri?

Where is the original post of the protocol? I cant find it

 

[narouz]

Where is the original post of the protocol? I cant find it

Alright, now let's just get rid of that word, okay?
I was just kidding.
It makes it sound fancier/more scientific than it was. :)

I never made a thread out of it.
I just kinda related it, more or less thoroughly, in different threads.
I will get some sleep and tomorrow try to unearth
Narouz' Astounding 10 Point Winning Protocol!

I mean: Narouz' Astounding 10 Point Winning Thing He Did!

 

[narouz]

I found a post in my Candida thread
where I had told an ex-poster Jennifer about my protocol

I don't want to transpose my problems/treatment directly onto yours, Peatri;
I just am not familiar enough with your difficulties.
But I do know you're having gut issues and have taken antibiotics.
I'm a guy and you're a girl, so some things won't apply.

I've been much influenced by the research of our great pamper-pus poster haidut,
so many thanks to him,
and I highly recommend that you read all his stuff--
get busy, that'll take you a couple years if you're diligent.

I depart from Peatism in some respects--
mostly in gut matters
and specifically on Peat's view that Candida is not really a widespread or even real thing,
and on the Peatian slant that antibiotics used Peatanically
won't cause bad microbiome disturbances or Candida infestation.
So, just avert your eyes if that offends thee.
(do not pluck out your eyes, though, under any circumstance!)
It's not that I am sure that Candida exists and Peat is wrong about antibiotics;
it's just that I am open to non-Peatian views on those matters.
Along those same lines,
I don't stay within a strictly optimal Peat diet
in that I eat a little bit of certain fibers--especially soluble fiber--
operating under my speculation that it is desirable--
maybe especially for those without their appendixes--
to actively feed what are commonly called "helpful bacteria" in the gut microbiome.


So here is my protocol--what I tried, starting about half a year ago:

-methylene blue in low doses, under 5mg and usually in microgram range, 3 times per day or so
-lysine, 500mg x 3 or 4
-calcium, 500mg x3
-kraut and other fermented vegetables
-sprouted grain bread (Ezekial brand and Berlin Bakery brand), couple slices per day
-no nightshades
-s. boulardii, b. coagulans, l. reuteri --and some other probiotic strains
-Pau D'arco (4-8 Nature's Way brand caps per day)
-at some point I started eating almost every evening 1 or 2 Globe Artichokes w/ butter&garlic;
this under the influence of an ex-poster Stuart in his thread "Why is there so much soluble fiber in human milk?"
-a few tsps of FOS (you'll have to google it, sorry, I can't ever remember how to spell what that abbreviation stand for ); this too because of the ex-poster Stuart

There are some other things I added on to that protocol as I went along,
so I will maybe come back and do some adding/editing.

After following that protocol for like a month or so,
I started seeing some improvements:
-bumps on butthole went away
-burning upon butthole diminished, as did re-wiping of said butthole
-inflamed butthole tissue became pretty normalized
-diarrhea went away
-poops became not always perfect but much better; more like PlayDough extruded
-white tongue pretty much went away, now nice and pink and clear most of the time
-palpitations: still struggling with them, trying to figure out the whys, but much better
-libido: eh...definitely coming back but not really super
-erectile dysfunction: gone, it seems

So...that protocol did seem to raise me up to a certain plateau,
because I'm still not where I want to be in terms of energy
and completely resolving those palpitations.
I have recently, under the influence of haidut, done lab work that shows I have some liver weaknesses,
almost certainly fatty liver disease.
I'm suspecting that may be the root of my lingering palpitation problems,
and of my low energy and not great libido.

haidut has listed lab tests which he thinks are good starting points
for figuring out, from a Peatian perspective, what ails you.
They really aren't all that impossibly expensive when you do it yourself via an online intermediary;
I recommend Walk-in Labs (I'm not affiliated in any way! They're just cheap!! )

So Peatri, give my protocol a whirl if you like,
but more important, I think, for you,
is too read haidut's stuff
and do the lab work he suggests.
I think those labs will give you a good, rational, empirical foundation upon which you can think about your health.
Our poster Mittir is also an excellent source of sensible, informed Peatian ideas.

 

[sladerunner69]

Gut bacteria is a non issue to me, just consume carrot salads between meals and halfway between sleep (?I use an alarm) and between bites at meals.

 

[narouz]

post 107079 Gut bacteria is a non issue to me, just consume carrot salads between meals and halfway between sleep (?I use an alarm) and between bites at meals.

I did try that, slade.
Just didn't do the trick for me.
Plus, it became oddly repellent.
I usually would make a small carrot salad with a bit of olive oil and vingegar as per Peat.
But...that vinegary taste...that sourness...it really became almost inedible for me.
Like my body was sending a big signal.
Intuitively, it felt like my gut was too much the same way--sour...acidic...?

 

[Peatri Dish]

Oh wow! I've been working and had a couple of engagements and returned to find all this feedback...hooray!
Narouz you are my new best friend! (Move over Big Peatowski!)
Yes! Methylene blue is definitely the stuff. I must not have c diff because the diarrhea has stopped! I was going more than 10 times a day this summer. It became mostly clear with funky mucous in it! So gross. I was fine before the clindamycin and I visited my father in the hospital so I thought I might have picked it up there. Either way it doesn't matter, because I am definitely getting better. My gut is still really huge though and I have a lot of water retention.
I was so sure that after I stopped cyproheptadine that I would start pi**ing out of my a** again that I am on a total high just to know I'm on the mend. So, I haven't had cyproheptadine since Monday night and my BMs are getting much more playdough like each time I go! Yesterday afternoon I had such stomach cramps though that I finally started on s boulardii. My gut felt really big and hard. Last night I was lying in bed and I farted! I haven't farted since quitting starch...besides the fact that I would have been afraid to very recently. The gurgling has slowed down quite a bit too. I'm not sure what to say about all that except that intuitively it feels like things are shifting.
As far as Haidut, he's my hero! When I get on the forum I look for his posts first thing and he's the one who suggested the aspirin (in an email exchange.) But it's only now that I'm learning to appreciate you and BP. So, I will review your ....aahh...10 point thingy....and research the ones I didn't know about or try yet.
Messtafarian I think you are probably right. I'm so happy that I won't be qualified to take the c diff test. They won't do it if you don't have diarrhea.
Fredsonoma: I am saying that first go the cyproheptadine didn't make me feel better. I even posted about how mystified I was because I really respect Haidut's opinion. It made me feel better this time because I was really struggling to keep my electrolyte balance, as you can imagine. I think my gut is screwed up and I have needed the serotonin to keep things moving prior to the clindamycin. The cyproheptadine originally gave me constipation and irritability. I plan to try it again, but I need my emergency dump ability to be in place right now - I am not going to mess with my serotonin until I'm sure I'm not preventing it from dumping toxins.
Thanks everyone for the feedback!!

 

[Peatri Dish]

Oh and Mittir is the bomb, too!
Ok, so you were asking about my diet.
So, pre clindamycin it was basically OJ, milk, cherries,low fat cheese fage yogurt, sugar, eggs, coconut oil, grass fed beef, a little lamb. Very rarely white bread (usually with butter and grass fed beef.)
During diarrhea chocolate and red bull, vanilla milkshakes.
Now I am getting back to my old diet.
I take a lot of supplements including k2 and caffeine for liver and BCAA with other aminos including lysine, lots of Bs, progest e, vit A

 

[sladerunner69]

post 107084

post 107079 Gut bacteria is a non issue to me, just consume carrot salads between meals and halfway between sleep (?I use an alarm) and between bites at meals.

I did try that, slade.
Just didn't do the trick for me.
Plus, it became oddly repellent.
I usually would make a small carrot salad with a bit of olive oil and vingegar as per Peat.
But...that vinegary taste...that sourness...it really became almost inedible for me.
Like my body was sending a big signal.
Intuitively, it felt like my gut was too much the same way--sour...acidic...?

Well I'm not saying I like the taste of carrot salads either. But I still push them down at the top of every hour, on the dot, like clockwork. Eating fowl tasting things becomes jsut another part of life if you are motivated enough.

Like we always say here;

dont wanna eat like Master Peat?
hope you like the feel of defeat!
(loser)

 

[kyev]

Peatri Dish and Nouraz,

I have a lot of the same issues. I'll contribute more when I'm a bit more awake. I definitely think there's a good balance of bacteria/yeast and other bugs that need to be maintained for optimal health though.

I've got IBS, coated tongue, swelling, palpitations, list goes on....