10-methoxy-harmalan ,an anti-serotonin chemical?

[Mauritio]

Georgi said he's soon releasing this as an IdeaLabs product right? So we can soon order from there.

I mean soon is relative. Maybe a month, maybe 3 ,maybe 5 ...

 

[golder]

Georgi said he's soon releasing this as an IdeaLabs product right? So we can soon order from there.

Hopefully yes. He did mention releasing a Tribulus product about a year ago so this one could be a while.

 

[Drareg]

I find it interesting because of its similarity to melatonin, I know Peat wasn’t fond of melatonin but it links into a lot of processes in the body, hair growth and color to name a few. I’m curious if it may have metabolites that stimulate some of the more positive aspects of melatonin downstream.

 

[haidut]

So, just a few quick comments. I have already tried 10-methoxyharmalan (10-MH) myself, and and off for a few months. The anti-serotonin effects are quite pronounced and can be felt at doses as low as 100mcg. This basically matches what the study on 10-MH serotonin antagonism found, as LSD is used clinically in doses of around 200mcg-400mcg daily but such doses are used to induce hallucinations. The anti-serotonin effects of LSD manifest even at doses as low as 50mcg, which is something studies with the closely related chemical lisuride also confirmed - i.e. while lisuride is used clinically in doses around 200mcg, doses in the 50mcg range still powerfully lower prolactin, while avoiding issues such as nausea and hypotension commonly seen with those chemicals. So, if 10-MH works similar to LSD but need 2-fold higher doses to produce the same effects, this means 100mcg should be able to match the effects of 50mcg lisuride but without the nausea, dizziness, etc. That is basically what I experienced when trying it.
The anti-serotonin effects (clear vision, stress-free digestion (even of starch), improved mood/cognition, relaxation, etc) of a single 200mcg dose of 10-MH usually last up to a day for me. Nausea does not seem to occur unless doses >1mg are reached but such high doses are quite unnecessary IMO as 100mcg-200mcg work quite well. I have tried up to 5mg as single doses and there are NO hallucinations, at least for me. Btw, despite LSD having a unique reputation as hallucinogen, virtually all ergot derivatives can cause hallucinations (and tremors) if used in high doses and/or for extended periods of time.
We have already started work on synthesizing it, so if the process is efficient and produces decent outputs, we should be able to release it in a month or so. We don't know yet if this would be commercially feasible. The papers listing its synthesis routes claim it should be relatively easy 1-2 step process but we have encountered several times in the past that published synthesis routes do not actually work as described. So, there is a good chance we will release this, but it is not guaranteed until we confirm the synthesis is possible and affordable (both in materials and manpower). In the meantime, you can get it from Sigma or other vendors selling it. I have not seen any indication that it is a controlled chemical in any country and all chemical vendors that sell it, do so without any restrictions or requiring any licenses.
From what is available in the scientific literature, 10-MH seems to be an anti-metabolite of both melatonin and serotonin and is present endogenously in the body. In other words, out bodies synthesized it from melatonin probably as part of a negative feedback mechanism to put the brakes on excessive serotonin/melatonin production/effects. Finally, 10-MH is structurally very similar to the 5-HT3 antagonist ondansetron, which IMO corroborates its effects as a serotonin antagonist, especially considering that the initial idea for developing ondansetron came precisely from work with the beta-carbolines / alkaloids like harmine, harmaline, and harmalan.

Ondansetron - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also, the optimal doses of ondansetron for systemic health seem to be in the 0.5mg-1mg daily range (based on animal studies, and despite its clinical usage in 4mg doses) and this is what Ray has also been suggesting to people in regards to ondansetron dosing. So, the optimal dosing for 10-MH is probably in that same range (0,5mg-1mg daily), but in my experience even 100mcg daily produces noticeable anti-serotonin effects.


@Drareg @James b @Mauritio @MeatOrchid @Waynish @jmojo

 

[MeatOrchid]

So, just a few quick comments. I have already tried 10-methoxyharmalan (10-MH) myself, and and off for a few months. The anti-serotonin effects are quite pronounced and can be felt at doses as low as 100mcg. This basically matches what the study on 10-MH serotonin antagonism found, as LSD is used clinically in doses of around 200mcg-400mcg daily but such doses are used to induce hallucinations. The anti-serotonin effects of LSD manifest even at doses as low as 50mcg, which is something studies with the closely related chemical lisuride also confirmed - i.e. while lisuride is used clinically in doses around 200mcg, doses in the 50mcg range still powerfully lower prolactin, while avoiding issues such as nausea and hypotension commonly seen with those chemicals. So, if 10-MH works similar to LSD but need 2-fold higher doses to produce the same effects, this means 100mcg should be able to match the effects of 50mcg lisuride but without the nausea, dizziness, etc. That is basically what I experienced when trying it.
The anti-serotonin effects (clear vision, stress-free digestion (even of starch), improved mood/cognition, relaxation, etc) of a single 200mcg dose of 10-MH usually last up to a day for me. Nausea does not seem to occur unless doses >1mg are reached but such high doses are quite unnecessary IMO as 100mcg-200mcg work quite well. I have tried up to 5mg as single doses and there are NO hallucinations, at least for me. Btw, despite LSD having a unique reputation as hallucinogen, virtually all ergot derivatives can cause hallucinations (and tremors) if used in high doses and/or for extended periods of time.
We have already started work on synthesizing it, so if the process is efficient and produces decent outputs, we should be able to release it in a month or so. We don't know yet if this would be commercially feasible. The papers listing its synthesis routes claim it should be relatively easy 1-2 step process but we have encountered several times in the past that published synthesis routes do not actually work as described. So, there is a good chance we will release this, but it is not guaranteed until we confirm the synthesis is possible and affordable (both in materials and manpower). In the meantime, you can get it from Sigma or other vendors selling it. I have not seen any indication that it is a controlled chemical in any country and all chemical vendors that sell it, do so without any restrictions or requiring any licenses.
From what is available in the scientific literature, 10-MH seems to be an anti-metabolite of both melatonin and serotonin and is present endogenously in the body. In other words, out bodies synthesized it from melatonin probably as part of a negative feedback mechanism to put the brakes on excessive serotonin/melatonin production/effects. Finally, 10-MH is structurally very similar to the 5-HT3 antagonist ondansetron, which IMO corroborates its effects as a serotonin antagonist, especially considering that the initial idea for developing ondansetron came precisely from work with the beta-carbolines / alkaloids like harmine, harmaline, and harmalan.

Ondansetron - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also, the optimal doses of ondansetron for systemic health seem to be in the 0.5mg-1mg daily range (based on animal studies, and despite its clinical usage in 4mg doses) and this is what Ray has also been suggesting to people in regards to ondansetron dosing. So, the optimal dosing for 10-MH is probably in that same range (0,5mg-1mg daily), but in my experience even 100mcg daily produces noticeable anti-serotonin effects.


@Drareg @James b @Mauritio @MeatOrchid @Waynish @jmojo

Thank you so much for your explanation and work. This will be your next success. Congratulations @haidut !

Is it possible that it would keep you from falling asleep if taken at bedtime? @haidut

 

[Mauritio]

So, just a few quick comments. I have already tried 10-methoxyharmalan (10-MH) myself, and and off for a few months. The anti-serotonin effects are quite pronounced and can be felt at doses as low as 100mcg. This basically matches what the study on 10-MH serotonin antagonism found, as LSD is used clinically in doses of around 200mcg-400mcg daily but such doses are used to induce hallucinations. The anti-serotonin effects of LSD manifest even at doses as low as 50mcg, which is something studies with the closely related chemical lisuride also confirmed - i.e. while lisuride is used clinically in doses around 200mcg, doses in the 50mcg range still powerfully lower prolactin, while avoiding issues such as nausea and hypotension commonly seen with those chemicals. So, if 10-MH works similar to LSD but need 2-fold higher doses to produce the same effects, this means 100mcg should be able to match the effects of 50mcg lisuride but without the nausea, dizziness, etc. That is basically what I experienced when trying it.
The anti-serotonin effects (clear vision, stress-free digestion (even of starch), improved mood/cognition, relaxation, etc) of a single 200mcg dose of 10-MH usually last up to a day for me. Nausea does not seem to occur unless doses >1mg are reached but such high doses are quite unnecessary IMO as 100mcg-200mcg work quite well. I have tried up to 5mg as single doses and there are NO hallucinations, at least for me. Btw, despite LSD having a unique reputation as hallucinogen, virtually all ergot derivatives can cause hallucinations (and tremors) if used in high doses and/or for extended periods of time.
We have already started work on synthesizing it, so if the process is efficient and produces decent outputs, we should be able to release it in a month or so. We don't know yet if this would be commercially feasible. The papers listing its synthesis routes claim it should be relatively easy 1-2 step process but we have encountered several times in the past that published synthesis routes do not actually work as described. So, there is a good chance we will release this, but it is not guaranteed until we confirm the synthesis is possible and affordable (both in materials and manpower). In the meantime, you can get it from Sigma or other vendors selling it. I have not seen any indication that it is a controlled chemical in any country and all chemical vendors that sell it, do so without any restrictions or requiring any licenses.
From what is available in the scientific literature, 10-MH seems to be an anti-metabolite of both melatonin and serotonin and is present endogenously in the body. In other words, out bodies synthesized it from melatonin probably as part of a negative feedback mechanism to put the brakes on excessive serotonin/melatonin production/effects. Finally, 10-MH is structurally very similar to the 5-HT3 antagonist ondansetron, which IMO corroborates its effects as a serotonin antagonist, especially considering that the initial idea for developing ondansetron came precisely from work with the beta-carbolines / alkaloids like harmine, harmaline, and harmalan.

Ondansetron - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also, the optimal doses of ondansetron for systemic health seem to be in the 0.5mg-1mg daily range (based on animal studies, and despite its clinical usage in 4mg doses) and this is what Ray has also been suggesting to people in regards to ondansetron dosing. So, the optimal dosing for 10-MH is probably in that same range (0,5mg-1mg daily), but in my experience even 100mcg daily produces noticeable anti-serotonin effects.


@Drareg @James b @Mauritio @MeatOrchid @Waynish @jmojo

Thanks for your report!
If 100mcg is enough . The 25mg from sigma aren't really that expensive . Although it says it's in crystalline form . I wonder if you can just dilute it in water ?

 

[haidut]

Is it possible that it would keep you from falling asleep if taken at bedtime? @haidut

Not in my experience, it actually helps with sleep and serotonin antagonists (usually on the 5-HT2C or 5-HT2A) receptor are sometimes used as sleep-aids. However, they do not cause sedation (unless they are antihistamines as well), they simply have anti-anxiety / anti-cortisol effects and that helps with sleep.

 

[haidut]

Thanks for your report!
If 100mcg is enough . The 25mg from sigma aren't really that expensive . Although it says it's in crystalline form . I wonder if you can just dilute it in water ?

The water solubility of the closely related harmine and harmaline is very low. I think this would need ethanol or acetone as a solvent.

 

[Mauritio]

The water solubility of the closely related harmine and harmaline is very low. I think this would need ethanol or acetone as a solvent.

Ok thanks .

I think for ordering from sigma aldrich you need a company. Does anybody that wants to order this have a company? Then we could split the cost with a few other people . Preferably in europe .
I think if each one has 5mg to experiment that should be more than enough ...

 

[MeatOrchid]

@haidut good health to you and your family.

Do you see any possible secondary effects to 10MH? It is an endogenous hormone though. Could it be coupled on the side of estrogens or progesterone?

Claudio Naranjo, a Chilean psychiatrist, reported on his use of 10MH, but if you watch on YouTube any of his latest videos, which are all incredibly sage wise, you can see that at his very old age his hand is shaking incontrollably. Now, his acute intelligence and sensibility atunned to very subtle but complex realities show an empathy beyond anybody else which seems low serotonin, but yet he seems to have Parkinson's Disease. Could that happen in a low serotonina life?

Claudio Naranjo on psychedelics

Thank you for your attention.

 

[Mauritio]

@haidut good health to you and your family.

Do you see any possible secondary effects to 10MH? It is an endogenous hormone though. Could it be coupled on the side of estrogens or progesterone?

Claudio Naranjo, a Chilean psychiatrist, reported on his use of 10MH, but if you watch on YouTube any of his latest videos, which are all incredibly sage wise, you can see that at his very old age his hand is shaking incontrollably. Now, his acute intelligence and sensibility atunned to very subtle but complex realities show an empathy beyond anybody else which seems low serotonin, but yet he seems to have Parkinson's Disease. Could that happen in a low serotonina life?

Claudio Naranjo on psychedelics

Thank you for your attention.

I think he often took very high doses of hallucinogenics ,which is actually serotonergic.

 

[MeatOrchid]

@haidut @Mauritio

Buenas noches

EXPERTO INTERNADO EN UN PSIQUIÁTRICO TRAS CUESTIONAR LA VERSIÓN OFICIAL

El experto farmacéutico y profesor universitario jubilado Jean Bernard Fourtillan fue severamente arrestado en su casa en Francia

otrarealidadtv.com

Jean Bernard Fourtillan was imprisoned in a mental asylum for questioning the mediathic COVID pandemic and treatments. According to this article, he developed a patch with "valentonina y 6- Méthoxy-Harmalan" which successfully treated patients with COVID.

Why add valentonina? Could 10MH be a COVID treatment?


Some explanation of the cycle between 6MH and valentonin:






Fourtillan in his own words:

En ce qui concerne les patchs à 2 réservoirs (délivrant 100 microgrammes de 6-Méthoxy-Harmalan, 6-MH, et 400 microgrammes de Valentonine, VLT, pour les maladies de Parkinson et d'Alzheimer, et 50 microgrammes de 6-MH et 200 microgrammes de VLT pour les troubles du sommeil et les dépressions nerveuses), ils seront disponibles courant 2017 (4ème trimestre), comme c’est précisé au bas de la page d'accueil du site du Fonds Josefa.

Does Ray Peat ever talk about Valentonin? 6MH?

 

[Mauritio]

Wow if that's true that's really sad . It's been shown that serotonin antagonists are antiviral, for example cyproheptadine. So it wouldn't surprise me if 6MH would be anti viral too .

Serotonin antagonists as treatment for COVID-19 / SARS – To Extract Knowledge from Matter

 

[Mauritio]

I've never heard of valentonine . Is it also a melatonin metabolite ? Seems interesting though .



"These are due to the insufficient secretion of Valentonin, the sleep hormone.

It should be pointed out that Valentonin deficiency always goes hand in hand with 6-methoxyharmalan deficiency, the waking hormone.





Consequently, in sleep disorders, a combination of Valentonin and 6-methoxyharmalan must be administered transdermally, in a dose ratio of 4 to 1, so as not to create any imbalance in the regulation of the body."


Edit: here it is

 

[Mauritio]

@haidut @Mauritio

Buenas noches

EXPERTO INTERNADO EN UN PSIQUIÁTRICO TRAS CUESTIONAR LA VERSIÓN OFICIAL

El experto farmacéutico y profesor universitario jubilado Jean Bernard Fourtillan fue severamente arrestado en su casa en Francia

otrarealidadtv.com

Jean Bernard Fourtillan was imprisoned in a mental asylum for questioning the mediathic COVID pandemic and treatments. According to this article, he developed a patch with "valentonina y 6- Méthoxy-Harmalan" which successfully treated patients with COVID.

Why add valentonina? Could 10MH be a COVID treatment?


Some explanation of the cycle between 6MH and valentonin:






Fourtillan in his own words:






Does Ray Peat ever talk about Valentonin? 6MH?

Valentonin seems to have a pro serotonin effect . So ithink the anti covid stack from him would work a lot better if he used just 6MH

"The level of wakefulness is determined by the functioning of 5-HT2C serotoninergic neurons, the cell bodies of which are located in the brain stem. The impulse is transmitted to these neurons by serotonin, an endogenous agonist of the 5-HT2C receptors.

Between 10pm and 6am, during its prevalence period, Valentonin amplifies the response of the 5-HT2C receptors to serotonin, following a specific allosteric deformation which makes them more sensitive to serotonin; this causes a decrease in wakefulness, leading to sleep."

 

[burtlancast]

Fourtillan made one of the discoveries of the century with Valentonine, the true sleep hormone.

He's able to provide true and natural restorative sleep for the first time ever, the other sleep aids being unable to really do this.

He has pointed out 6-methoxyharmalan is able to stimulate the thymus and lymphocyte production, and his aborted trial with Parkinson, Alzheimer patients seems to have shown an additional anti cancer effect, thus his hypothesis it could cure Covid too.

Saddly his discovery, the control of the sleep-wake cycle in the pineal gland by first melatonin (synthesized from serotonin, powerful anti oxidant for the neurons), then 6-methoxyharmalan (the wake hormone, synthesized from melatonin, as powerful as LSD) and then Valentonin (synthesized from 6-methoxyharmalan) the antagonist to 6-methoxyharmalan and the true sleep hormone, which he patented, is going to be hounded down and certainly destroyed by Big Pharma since it can revolutionize the entire medical field.

He probably deserves 10 Nobel prizes, but i really don't know what's going to happen to him; true helpers of humanity have no friends in high places; they all are going to slice and dice him because he's cutting in their profits.

 

[Mauritio]

Fourtillan made one of the discoveries of the century with Valentonine, the true sleep hormone.

He's able to provide true and natural restorative sleep for the first time ever, the other sleep aids being unable to really do this.

He has pointed out 6-methoxyharmalan is able to stimulate the thymus and lymphocyte production, and his aborted trial with Parkinson, Alzheimer patients seems to have shown an additional anti cancer effect, thus his hypothesis it could cure Covid too.

Saddly his discovery, the control of the sleep-wake cycle in the pineal gland by first melatonin (synthesized from serotonin, powerful anti oxidant for the neurons), then 6-methoxyharmalan (the wake hormone, synthesized from melatonin, as powerful as LSD) and then Valentonin (synthesized from 6-methoxyharmalan) the antagonist to 6-methoxyharmalan and the true sleep hormone, which he patented, is going to be hounded down and certainly destroyed by Big Pharma since it can revolutionize the entire medical field.

He probably deserves 10 Nobel prizes, but i really don't know what's going to happen to him; true helpers of humanity have no friends in high places; they all are going to slice and dice him because he's cutting in their profits.

I'm not sure how good valentonin would be , given its pro 5ht2c effect ,but I think it would be worth a try .
Just as 6MH ,which I still couldnt get my hand on .
Another forum member told me has tried it ,but from what I remember there weren't any miraculous results.


@haidut I suppose idelabs 6MH will never see the light of day ?!

 

[Momado965]

When will 10 methoxy harmalan be released @haidut? Is it by the end of this month? I wanna get my hand on this compound ASAP.

 

[jaype]

Same, exited to try this

 

[Mauritio]

He talked about it in hans recent podcast . He said he first has to wait for the trial of the french doctor that gave it to his patients .
If that goes well he can release it immediately since he already got it synthesized .