1-year On Ray Peat/Pro-metabolic Diet With Some Bad Results

[Jsaute21]

You didn't address any single point I made in this thread. It just a common dishonest empty story when you can't actually say anything against my claims. I know how I feel eating peat prometabolic diet and what people are experiencing here and how I feel on my normal traditional diet I described.

There are too many holes to pick apart individually. I don't have the time. Your argument about not being able to artificially oppose cortisol imo is absolutely incorrect. Drugs, vitamins, adaptogens help the organism better adapt to their environment. You saying that the environment will always dictate our reaction to it is wrong. Your clear opposition to thyroid medication is also a point of contention. I don't think it is always the answer, but there are countless people that it helps. Overall i find your points relatively manic and lacking identity. One of the reasons that people are drawn to @haidut's posts is that they make sense. His vision is clear, and his confidence regarding what he believes to be beneficial is very clear. Also- he has helped a tremendous amount of people on the forum with countless remedies ranging from depression to low testosterone, infertility, etc. So the mockery of his "supps" & advice just irritates me. He's a former division one athlete that went to Georgetown. Not to be rude - internet forums aren't exactly flowing with resumes like that. I eat starch fairly often and don't agree with all of his or Peat's views - i just think it has become fashionable to go against these guys at every turn and it is laughable.

Looking back at my initial post - it comes off as extremely sarcastic, when that wasn't fully my intention. I sincerely am happy that you have found a routine that works, it just seems to me that you are overly critical of a man you have certainly taken many concepts from.

 

[nikolabeacon]

@Jsaute21 I do not think You understood anything I have said I this thread.

I have nothing against Haidut(or hajduk) Supplements can help some individuals that are in the limbo but I just can't watch (and be quiet) all this fake hype.

 

[Jsaute21]

@Jsaute21 I do not think You understood anything I said I this thread.

I have nothing against Haidut(or hajduk)Supplements can help some individuals that are in the limbo but I just can't watch (and be quiet) all this fake hype.

No offense but i don't think you have discovered a cure for cancer in your posts - it is not above my head or hopefully anybody else's. Why is the hype fake?

So let me get this straight - coffee isn't a source of magnesium? B vitamins aren't important for metabolism? Androsterone isn't effective for lowering estrogen & potentially increasing DHT? Sugars (primarily through fruit) don't aid the metabolism? Adequate protein intake isn't important? Hitting micronutrients through food isn't optimal? Saturated fats aren't beneficial to PUFAS? Should i go on?

I completely understand your point on the hype. It can be exhausting and it is often over analyzed. But the foundational points are quite simple and IMO (with some exceptions such as the debate over starch) fairly conclusive.

 

[nikolabeacon]

No offense but i don't think you have discovered a cure for cancer in your posts - it is not above my head or hopefully anybody else's. Why is the hype fake?

So let me get this straight - coffee isn't a source of magnesium? B vitamins aren't important for metabolism? Androsterone isn't effective for lowering estrogen & potentially increasing DHT? Sugars (primarily through fruit) don't aid the metabolism? Adequate protein intake isn't important? Hitting micronutrients through food isn't optimal? Saturated fats aren't beneficial to PUFAS? Should i go on?

I completely understand your point on the hype. It can be exhausting and it is often over analyzed. But the foundational points are quite simple and IMO (with some exceptions such as the debate over starch) fairly conclusive.

I didn't but William F. Koch did. I did something which I thought was very important. It's just you ignorance that disabled you to think outside of peat box. Other things you said ..basically nothing again...you didn't address my points and no coffee is not a good source of Mg. Not at all considering the fact that you will impair your metabolism greatly by using it to get your magnesium. I am no longer involved in furthrrvdiscussions with you on the subject .

 

[Jsaute21]

@Jsaute21 I do not think You understood anything I have said I this thread.

I have nothing against Haidut(or hajduk) Supplements can help some individuals that are in the limbo but I just can't watch (and be quiet) all this fake hype.

I will also add is that the issue for MANY people on here is an issue called Orthrexia. This means that they are very susceptible to pessimistic viewpoints on food & nutrition. They are prone to not being in touch with their bodies, which leads to detrimental habits involving food choices. Therefore, posting controversial, negative & vague posts that refute study driven advice accomplish far more harm than good. Especially while people are at the beginning of their journey.

 

[Jsaute21]

My last intention was to offend. I have just grown wary of the negativity.

 

[Broken man]

I'll stick with my delicious diet & low body fat.

 

[cyclops]

Probably between 2500-3000 cal fat is around 30-50 g (before all this I was eating more fat I think but didn't realy tracked that), 20-80 g of sucrose(from some traditional clear apple juices or from ripe fruits in season) , protein maybe around 50-80 g and starch is rest. With combinations of listed foods. And all this will changes according to season and activity. Sorry if it's not enough precise.

If you areavery weakened and can not tolerate starch you may want to try some spring water fasting or eating very small portions of refined overcooked starch with just a little clear fruit juice until digestion and liver improves.

Its not enough precise! Don't apologize for not telling me what you eat, but instead just tell me what you eat.

So you eat pretty low fat (from what? saturated fats?). 1-3 quarts of fresh juice. Why do you say 50-80gram protein and not say exactly what protein your eating? Just tell me the exact foods you put in your mouth. Eggs? Dairy? Gelatin? Sometimes Liver and Oysters?

And the rest your eating potatoes and refined starch? Like what, white rice?

This diet doesn't sound that far off from Peat at all.

But then you go on to say this changes based on the season. So you change it based on how many seasons, 4? What are the exact changes you make based on the seasons then?

You say you also change based on activity. How? Like, you do more work, you eat more starch?

You write pages and pages (and pages) worth of stuff. You can answer these questions exactly very easily. Please don't be so cryptic.

 

[Jack Roe]

Because of the various confusing informations.

PeatFirst thing is Understanding of the "real" traditional" knowledge before all this modern various confusing propaganda and politics(which Peat and his followers see as a Conspiracy...which is absolute BS) came , that I described in this thread. Evidences about real world longevity diets exist in many places., And are also described in many ancient writings, civilisations or "religions". In that thread I listed just most famous (Japanese,Okinawan, Chinese, Asian, Mediterranean , some regions in mediteranean Balkan) that have many things in common that I briefly described and which @Westside PUFAs and @tyw tried to present in their posts. And of course they will also differ in some things and smaller or bigger "details" from each other because of the environmental factors and circumstances.

Peat diet is basically a type of Paleo diet , or some kind of primitive tribal nomadic type nutrition or anti/civilisation phylosophy. Eskimos and all other tribal primitive Hunter/gatherer diets as in other animal world for survival needed "whole animals" and their products( thyroid gland, organs etc, ) , primitive sugars(fructose).
Cooking(and increased nutrition of bioavailability and nutrition) and cultivation of grains and roots(and some fruits and plants and animals as a supplemental foods) as concentrated reservoir of energy and life... of superior life giving sugar glucose that is responsible for activation of TH and it's increased production and also a concentrated source of energy for all processes in body and for our big brains that are responsible for all real developments(and civilisations and their great knowledge) and real "traditional" inventions and survival of the human race.

I think you can claim a diet is healthy, and possibly even offer evidence, without suggesting that "civilization" is a beneficial thing. It is _incredibly unlikely_ that humans will outlast cockroaches, all manner of bacteria, trees, plants, etc. unless we happen to destroy them all, which I guess would sort of a point on our side.

It is not really BS to suggest that dietary advice given in modern "civilization" is politicized. Most research is politicized, if you believe in "pure science" or something, done on a national scale, in universities, well, I think that is naive. Certainly you do not have "pure science" in fields as political as health, especially when "health" and "behavior" are so tied together. Someone who would fight with anyone who dared touch him is considered "unhealthy" in a society that has the rule of law, but that behavior is quite reasonable for animals that are not domesticated. So how much of the domestication of man is nature, how much is nurture/diet?

I mean, the tone of most of your writing is pretty hostile, you don't sound very laid back, is that because you are very healthy? =]

 

[Wagner83]

So you are lucky man. How you want improve your health then? My health is really bad so what you recommend me ? I know that sugar gives me energy but starches makes me tired, why?

I was like you in my tolerance to meals a few months ago, it has gotten a lot better but still is not optimal, some variables to play with are amount of fruits juices with meals, amount of proteins (too much proteins and starch at the wrong time = sleep), digestibility of the starch, eating a lot of carbs in the morning and at noon, not mixing too much starch with too much fat (e.g. potatoes drenched in butter or pasta with lots of cheese are nap inducers), and giving time to an approach with less fat and some form of exercise.
I'm not saying what I did or do is ideal, I want to improve more but these are ideas. I tried the no/low starch high milk and fruit juices and ended up with worrying issues.
Also if environment is rich I feel a lot better and if it's not a lot worse, diet is just part of the equation.

According to the studies and experimental reports i have seen- taking a few drops of Andro or Keto or DHEA won't shut you down or hurt your liver. If you go crazy with it, you are absolutely right it will lead to potential shut down or obsessive behavior. @haidut is very transparent about this - don't really see the big deal or why people have to come in so negatively on the topic.

Afaik there is no data or studies on 11-keto-dht , I wish there was .

There are too many holes to pick apart individually. I don't have the time. Your argument about not being able to artificially oppose cortisol imo is absolutely incorrect. Drugs, vitamins, adaptogens help the organism better adapt to their environment. You saying that the environment will always dictate our reaction to it is wrong. Your clear opposition to thyroid medication is also a point of contention. I don't think it is always the answer, but there are countless people that it helps.

Actually even on this site I have not seen many people do well on thyroid medication for a long time , Ray often makes it sound like it's the ultimate cure and you can start it like you can start eating candy (at least that's how I perceive his views in all the podcasts heard). If you search online you'll see many horror stories from people who supplemented thyroid.

 

[Broken man]

Actually even on this site I have not seen many people do well on thyroid medication for a long time , Ray often makes it sound like it's the ultimate cure and you can start it like you can start eating candy (at least that's how I perceive his views in all the podcasts heard). If you search online you'll see many horror stories from people who supplemented thyroid.

Yes, thyroid function is important too, but I think Peat's recommendation on supplementing thyroid even in the presence of normal thyroid labs may cause issues for a number of people. Charlie, and at least 20 other people have posted on struggling with supplementing thyroid. If they take it, they develop teeth issues, skin issues, anxiety or some other unpleasant symptoms. If they don't take it, their digestion slows down to a crawl or they start getting hypothyroid symptoms like brain fog or muscle issues, etc.
So, if the stats are true and the evidence I have seen is legit, then eating according to the peat guidelines is a great strategy AFTER metabolism is fixed. But if 80% of people over 30 are having liver issues or some other problems with metabolism, then the diet will be certainly supportive, but likely not "curative". And for some people with particularly bad liver problems the situation may end up getting worse in a way due to even more fatty liver issues or higher ammonia levels. Just ask anybody over the age of 40 if they are having trouble maintaining (let alone building) muscle mass.
Then the question becomes, what will aid metabolic recovery, other than blindly supplementing thyroid even in the presence of normal thyroid labs? I guess the answer Peat will give is that one needs to wait at least 4 years and get rid of the PUFA before starting to see solid results. There is some solid evidence in favor of lower PUFA fixing metabolic issues. But I wonder if working on liver health or trying to build more muscle will also help while waiting out the PUFA detox period? Uncoupling agents are probably also key, but they should probably be other than aspirin since it may make fatty liver issues worse for many people if used in the doses needed for mitochondrial uncoupling. Finally, increasing CO2 production or intake somehow will also likely have a key role. Just throwing things out there that seem to be cardinal methods for improving metabolism.
Sorry about the long rant, I just felt like this deserves some attention since a number of threads pop on the forum asking the same questions and I have been thinking about this for some time. If someone knows about Peat's definitive opinion on this issue please share it. Maybe I missed it in his articles. IMHO, after reading pretty much all of his published stuff, reading people's testimonies/complaints, cross-referencing this with studies, and my own experience, I think a number of chicken/egg question still remain.
Anybody care to comment?

 

[Jsaute21]

I was like you in my tolerance to meals a few months ago, it has gotten a lot better but still is not optimal, some variables to play with are amount of fruits juices with meals, amount of proteins (too much proteins and starch at the wrong time = sleep), digestibility of the starch, eating a lot of carbs in the morning and at noon, not mixing too much starch with too much fat (e.g. potatoes drenched in butter or pasta with lots of cheese are nap inducers), and giving time to an approach with less fat and some form of exercise.
I'm not saying what I did or do is ideal, I want to improve more but these are ideas. I tried the no/low starch high milk and fruit juices and ended up with worrying issues.
Also if environment is rich I feel a lot better and if it's not a lot worse, diet is just part of the equation.

Afaik there is no data or studies on 11-keto-dht , I wish there was .

Actually even on this site I have not seen many people do well on thyroid medication for a long time , Ray often makes it sound like it's the ultimate cure and you can start it like you can start eating candy (at least that's how I perceive his views in all the podcasts heard). If you search online you'll see many horror stories from people who supplemented thyroid.

@Wagner83 True on the Keto studies, i should have been more clear. I guess i was trying to say that low dose supplementation looks to be relatively harmless. I think it is neurotic to believe that it is dangerous to supplement these products in moderate doses. At the beginning of my journey, @DaveFoster said something that made a lot of sense to me. It is far worse and more suppressive to eat low carb for a sustained period of time than try out thyroid, or other supplements in CONSERVATIVE dosages. I agree with this sentiment.

You are right that thyroid medication is very tough to dose. I have tried it with poor results at times. For me, NDT (Dr Rons freeze dried thyroid with liver) works well. Cynoplus (have only taken a couple of times) usually does nothing but for some strange reason leads to constipation often. When i take cynomel (which is rare) it is hit or miss. Sometimes leads to the utilization of sugar too quickly and leaves me hungry an hour after taking it. Regardless, i have never had a disaster story from supplementing with it.

I think @nikolabeacon made some good points. This diet can be cultish and lead to extreme behavior. "Don't ever drink water!" for example.

 

[nikolabeacon]

@Wagner83 True on the Keto studies, i should have been more clear. I guess i was trying to say that low dose supplementation looks to be relatively harmless. I think it is neurotic to believe that it is dangerous to supplement these products in moderate doses. At the beginning of my journey, @DaveFoster said something that made a lot of sense to me. It is far worse and more suppressive to eat low carb for a sustained period of time than try out thyroid, or other supplements in CONSERVATIVE dosages. I agree with this sentiment.

You are right that thyroid medication is very tough to dose. I have tried it with poor results at times. For me, NDT (Dr Rons freeze dried thyroid with liver) works well. Cynoplus (have only taken a couple of times) usually does nothing but for some strange reason leads to constipation often. When i take cynomel (which is rare) it is hit or miss. Sometimes leads to the utilization of sugar too quickly and leaves me hungry an hour after taking it. Regardless, i have never had a disaster story from supplementing with it.

I think @nikolabeacon made some good points. This diet can be cultish and lead to extreme behavior. "Don't ever drink water!" for example.

And if you and even Hajduk and many peoples experiences here match with that that it's clear proof that all Peat theory is totally off. And with all other isolated supps that requires adequate diagnosis not just thyroid this , thyroid that. It's ignorance and unability to understand Reality and really solve things. In some serious specific cases "right supplement" can just relieve some symptoms but only short therm. Without proper diagnosis (for ex wwhen someone is missing a gland) it will always cause more harm than good. Just one example is Thyroid supplement. You will become hypersensitive to stress( and possibly in some cases become catabolic )( from lack of adequate support for thyroid and from all sorts of acute inflammations that can be opposed only with cortisol ) or you will fast gain a lots of (belly) weight and lose appetite from negative feedback and stress response also because there wasn't actual adequate support .Very Similar as with medication with caffeine and sucrose.. So to take right dose of isolated stimulating or medicating nutrient , or medicine or a hormone that can fit in ongoing environmental and organism synergy without proper diagnosis is close to imposible and it will always cause much more dissbalances and stress than benefits.
Read my posts again... I do not think you understood too much.When you desperately want to simplify synergy it will always end with failure.


...I do not see how it is difficult to realize that Peat diet is also a Paleo diet or type of Tropic Paleo diet. I am not pushing anything it's a fact. According to his artistic "design theory " starch is not a food my friends. His theory of how we developed big brains in Tropics on fruits is even funny to discuss but let's say that it's absolutelly incorrect without any single proof. Cooking and energy and nutrient density is probably responsible for tthis. I do not see some great knowledge ffrom tribes and nomadic pprimitive people. Read my previous post or some explanations by Westsidepufa several times and think about that if needed and I hope you will realize. It's an anti/civilisation , hunter/gatherer "natural" design artistic phylosophy on which I also have fallen.

One of the main reasons I got interested in reading him is that artistic interesting side . With some interesting parts not related to nutritional and hormonal advices I still agree.

but majority of nutritional and supplemental advices he is giving to people now are not smart and some parts are very harmfull ) and without actual any smaller or larger scale real world evidence. O do not count his anecdotal "dope" observations. Actually evidences that too much fructose(above 50 g,)( also in the form of sucrose or fruit) will put burden on your liver are there and are easy to find while for glucose you won't find any. You may only find that all longevity and "smart" developed cultures consummed starch.(or glucose) without loads of fruit or sucrose. Peat stories about longevity cultures that consumed "lots" of dairy is also not correct. First of they all have starch in their diets and cooked vegetables and dairy products (not so much milk) in quantities that are not even close to what he recommends. Masai and some other primitive Tribes I do not want to comment at all. Or evidences that antibiotics will damage you gut and mental health (in some cases for the rest of your life). Or evidences that milk consumption will increase various melanomas, cancers,skin and bowels inflammation and depression and that it's not going to prevent osteophorosis at all with all that, P.

As I said I also got enslaved by that artistic story( and natural design about foods etc) but in reality As I said art and design are always illusory and can not be translated to reality. It's very misleading.

Traditional knowledge and wisdom realized this fact long ago.

Why people here feel the need to look at my posts as If I have done something very frightening if I am just talking bs* and there is nothing truthfull in it? If someone really can not understand or feels offended because of ad-hominem towards Peat well I already tried to apologize in one or two of my Posts But I figured it was pointless and that it is actually needed.

If you think that someoneo is rulling the World or some kind of other conspiracy Paranoia or have a hard time believing what I am saying or why I personaly finally realized what are major weak links in Peat artistic theory than I can't help you with that part. Peating and supplements clearly made it worse.There is no conspiracy my friend...and the end you will end as a real broken man without real connection with the world in believing that someone is pulling the Strings behind the Scenes. There is only a confusion , detaching from traditional kknowledge and and hunger for profit that's making you Paranoid and confused. And unfortunately you choosed to follow recommendations that will only further put You in that black illusion hole.r

If you still have a hard time to believe in this then you have Westside and Tyw . I said and added something which I thought was very important to at least help people to look at what I realized is right direction. . I thonk They are both intelligent and both have energy to think outside of Peat box.

If not one good approach is to Just look for yourself and you won't find any single longevity diet(or a centenarian, majority consumed Starchy meals, cooked tasty foods, amd desserts ,small amounts of animal products,vegetables) that contained or consumed lots of fruit of sucrose.

You can get lots of sufficient Vit C very easy with just a small amounts of fruits. Fruits produced by plants are designed as a "fruits" and as a type of reproduction but in reality majority of plant fruits are poisonous (Koch described all this) and huge burden or allergen for our digestive system, liver and whole body. Good analogy is also that if you look by design it's also a design in nature to keep the circle of life and ensure both life and death . So everything designed for "food " as fruit is actually designed to accomplish that circle of life and death. While seeds(endosperm), eggs and roots are a "potential life" . Development. Regeneration. New life. This match perfectly with reality of real traditional development and civilisation vs tribal or nomadic people.

Anecdotaly some texts by William F. Koch and his observations can match with traditional observations and knowledge about fruits as a medicine and supplemental food(influenced by both observation on health and by practical and "digestibility" reasons about calorie density when it's about survival and mental and physical energy for all developments and knowledge). About dairy(and ponding Ca) and antibiotics I said what things are to be expected.

If you are still having hard time or are trying to fits some things in "Peat diet" than you can Personally ask Tyw what he concluded also after I suggested him to read William F . Koch's work. .Lings work also match very good with his work.

And guess why Koch's work is much mofe truthfull than Peats.? It's because he observed real traditional civilisation diets and knowledge(not some Weston Price Tribal Paleo BS) and personally observed many holistic real world experiments.
Also I think that even despite his very good explanations in work and similarity with traditional diets I still think that some real traditional knowledge are even actually superior to his observations. One example is refined starch or refinment of grains.

If you are obsessed with vit C there is no reason for that. Even 1 cup of fresh squized juice or few pieces of fresh ripe fruit regularly will provide you with all the benefits without burden on the liver from fructose and other chemicals and allergens in fruit.
I know there is a Gerson therapy , Linus Pauling and all that(not so impressively successfull at all, maybe it is in the eyes of a conspiracy) and it's all in the context of very weakened individuals that need more help from "antioxidants" .

Related to this when individual is weakened or have a SIBO (,before Peating or from Peating and antibiotics) or other inflammation that are hard to stop you have great traditional , ancient knowledge about Spring Water Fast proven successfully countless times for many illnesses. Koch also recommended this . And besides real world evidences in many cultures for this I personally have seen that some people got rid of their inflammation in the intestines or some nasty skin inflammation with that approach and exposure to sunlight. Good proven advice is also to add and dissolve a little real raw honey in that spring water for extra very mild(and not damaging) antimicrobal properties. Majority of people here will find this much more effective than various antibiotics, charcoal, carrots and other Bs that will only damage your gut and along with milk impair you perception and possibly make you autistic.
And no you won't destroy your thyroid with this . It is another stupid nonsense similar to the persorption of "starch molecules.

I think you can claim a diet is healthy, and possibly even offer evidence, without suggesting that "civilization" is a beneficial thing. It is _incredibly unlikely_ that humans will outlast cockroaches, all manner of bacteria, trees, plants, etc. unless we happen to destroy them all, which I guess would sort of a point on our side.

It is not really BS to suggest that dietary advice given in modern "civilization" is politicized. Most research is politicized, if you believe in "pure science" or something, done on a national scale, in universities, well, I think that is naive. Certainly you do not have "pure science" in fields as political as health, especially when "health" and "behavior" are so tied together. Someone who would fight with anyone who dared touch him is considered "unhealthy" in a society that has the rule of law, but that behavior is quite reasonable for animals that are not domesticated. So how much of the domestication of man is nature, how much is nurture/diet?

I mean, the tone of most of your writing is pretty hostile, you don't sound very laid back, is that because you are very healthy? =]

Since it's clear that you are also from Paranoid , Conspiracy group it will probably be very hard for you to understand what I have said. I think your " dope" damaged your understanding of "reality".

Yes. I am very healthy. But If I continued with Peating I wouldnt be for too long.

Its not enough precise! Don't apologize for not telling me what you eat, but instead just tell me what you eat.

So you eat pretty low fat (from what? saturated fats?). 1-3 quarts of fresh juice. Why do you say 50-80gram protein and not say exactly what protein your eating? Just tell me the exact foods you put in your mouth. Eggs? Dairy? Gelatin? Sometimes Liver and Oysters?

And the rest your eating potatoes and refined starch? Like what, white rice?

This diet doesn't sound that far off from Peat at all.

But then you go on to say this changes based on the season. So you change it based on how many seasons, 4? What are the exact changes you make based on the seasons then?

You say you also change based on activity. How? Like, you do more work, you eat more starch?

You write pages and pages (and pages) worth of stuff. You can answer these questions exactly very easily. Please don't be so cryptic.

 

[nikolabeacon]

.

 

[Jsaute21]

And if you and even Hajduk and many peoples experiences here match with that that it's clear proof that all Peat theory is totally off.

And if you and even Hajduk and many peoples experiences here match with that that it's clear proof that all Peat theory is totally off. And with all other isolated supps that requires adequate diagnosis not just thyroid this , thyroid that. It's ignorance and unability to understand Reality and really solve things. In some serious specific cases "right supplement" can just relieve some symptoms but only short therm. Without proper diagnosis (for ex wwhen someone is missing a gland) it will always cause more harm than good. Just one example is Thyroid supplement. You will become hypersensitive to stress( and possibly in some cases become catabolic )( from lack of adequate support for thyroid and from all sorts of acute inflammations that can be opposed only with cortisol ) or you will fast gain a lots of (belly) weight and lose appetite from negative feedback and stress response also because there wasn't actual adequate support .Very Similar as with medication with caffeine and sucrose.. So to take right dose of isolated stimulating or medicating nutrient , or medicine or a hormone that can fit in ongoing environmental and organism synergy without proper diagnosis is close to imposible and it will always cause much more dissbalances and stress than benefits.
Read my posts again... I do not think you understood too much.When you desperately want to simplify synergy it will always end with failure.


...I do not see how it is difficult to realize that Peat diet is also a Paleo diet or type of Tropic Paleo diet. I am not pushing anything it's a fact. According to his artistic "design theory " starch is not a food my friends. His theory of how we developed big brains in Tropics on fruits is even funny to discuss but let's say that it's absolutelly incorrect without any single proof. Cooking and energy and nutrient density is probably responsible for tthis. I do not see some great knowledge ffrom tribes and nomadic pprimitive people. Read my previous post or some explanations by Westsidepufa several times and think about that if needed and I hope you will realize. It's an anti/civilisation , hunter/gatherer "natural" design artistic phylosophy on which I also have fallen.

One of the main reasons I got interested in reading him is that artistic interesting side . With some interesting parts not related to nutritional and hormonal advices I still agree.

but majority of nutritional and supplemental advices he is giving to people now are not smart and some parts are very harmfull ) and without actual any smaller or larger scale real world evidence. O do not count his anecdotal "dope" observations. Actually evidences that too much fructose(above 50 g,)( also in the form of sucrose or fruit) will put burden on your liver are there and are easy to find while for glucose you won't find any. You may only find that all longevity and "smart" developed cultures consummed starch.(or glucose) without loads of fruit or sucrose. Peat stories about longevity cultures that consumed "lots" of dairy is also not correct. First of they all have starch in their diets and cooked vegetables and dairy products (not so much milk) in quantities that are not even close to what he recommends. Masai and some other primitive Tribes I do not want to comment at all. Or evidences that antibiotics will damage you gut and mental health (in some cases for the rest of your life). Or evidences that milk consumption will increase various melanomas, cancers,skin and bowels inflammation and depression and that it's not going to prevent osteophorosis at all with all that, P.

As I said I also got enslaved by that artistic story( and natural design about foods etc) but in reality As I said art and design are always illusory and can not be translated to reality. It's very misleading.

Traditional knowledge and wisdom realized this fact long ago.

Why people here feel the need to look at my posts as If I have done something very frightening if I am just talking bs* and there is nothing truthfull in it? If someone really can not understand or feels offended because of ad-hominem towards Peat well I already tried to apologize in one or two of my Posts But I figured it was pointless and that it is actually needed.

If you think that someoneo is rulling the World or some kind of other conspiracy Paranoia or have a hard time believing what I am saying or why I personaly finally realized what are major weak links in Peat artistic theory than I can't help you with that part. Peating and supplements clearly made it worse.There is no conspiracy my friend...and the end you will end as a real broken man without real connection with the world in believing that someone is pulling the Strings behind the Scenes. There is only a confusion , detaching from traditional kknowledge and and hunger for profit that's making you Paranoid and confused. And unfortunately you choosed to follow recommendations that will only further put You in that black illusion hole.r

If you still have a hard time to believe in this then you have Westside and Tyw . I said and added something which I thought was very important to at least help people to look at what I realized is right direction. . I thonk They are both intelligent and both have energy to think outside of Peat box.

If not one good approach is to Just look for yourself and you won't find any single longevity diet(or a centenarian, majority consumed Starchy meals, cooked tasty foods, amd desserts ,small amounts of animal products,vegetables) that contained or consumed lots of fruit of sucrose.

You can get lots of sufficient Vit C very easy with just a small amounts of fruits. Fruits produced by plants are designed as a "fruits" and as a type of reproduction but in reality majority of plant fruits are poisonous (Koch described all this) and huge burden or allergen for our digestive system, liver and whole body. Good analogy is also that if you look by design it's also a design in nature to keep the circle of life and ensure both life and death . So everything designed for "food " as fruit is actually designed to accomplish that circle of life and death. While seeds(endosperm), eggs and roots are a "potential life" . Development. Regeneration. New life. This match perfectly with reality of real traditional development and civilisation vs tribal or nomadic people.

Anecdotaly some texts by William F. Koch and his observations can match with traditional observations and knowledge about fruits as a medicine and supplemental food(influenced by both observation on health and by practical and "digestibility" reasons about calorie density when it's about survival and mental and physical energy for all developments and knowledge). About dairy(and ponding Ca) and antibiotics I said what things are to be expected.

If you are still having hard time or are trying to fits some things in "Peat diet" than you can Personally ask Tyw what he concluded also after I suggested him to read William F . Koch's work. .Lings work also match very good with his work.

And guess why Koch's work is much mofe truthfull than Peats.? It's because he observed real traditional civilisation diets and knowledge(not some Weston Price Tribal Paleo BS) and personally observed many holistic real world experiments.
Also I think that even despite his very good explanations in work and similarity with traditional diets I still think that some real traditional knowledge are even actually superior to his observations. One example is refined starch or refinment of grains.

If you are obsessed with vit C there is no reason for that. Even 1 cup of fresh squized juice or few pieces of fresh ripe fruit regularly will provide you with all the benefits without burden on the liver from fructose and other chemicals and allergens in fruit.
I know there is a Gerson therapy , Linus Pauling and all that(not so impressively successfull at all, maybe it is in the eyes of a conspiracy) and it's all in the context of very weakened individuals that need more help from "antioxidants" .

Related to this when individual is weakened or have a SIBO (,before Peating or from Peating and antibiotics) or other inflammation that are hard to stop you have great traditional , ancient knowledge about Spring Water Fast proven successfully countless times for many illnesses. Koch also recommended this . And besides real world evidences in many cultures for this I personally have seen that some people got rid of their inflammation in the intestines or some nasty skin inflammation with that approach and exposure to sunlight. Good proven advice is also to add and dissolve a little real raw honey in that spring water for extra very mild(and not damaging) antimicrobal properties. Majority of people here will find this much more effective than various antibiotics, charcoal, carrots and other Bs that will only damage your gut and along with milk impair you perception and possibly make you autistic.
And no you won't destroy your thyroid with this . It is another stupid nonsense similar to the persorption of "starch molecules.


Since it's clear that you are also from Paranoid , Conspiracy group it will probably be very hard for you to understand what I have said. I think your " dope" damaged your understanding of "reality".

Yes. I am very healthy. But If I continued with Peating I wouldnt be for too long.

Not at all actually. My background (not that you care because you just want to rant) is that I was a former high level athlete that was always extremely happy & healthy. For some reason, i started to develop mild orthrexic (the gene runs in my family)habits at the end of college, but was kind of able to push by them and eat relatively normally. I eat too much protein perhaps, and not quite enough carbs but not terrible overall. I then moved on to Charles Poliquin principles (the meat & nut breakfast) for a bit, and many other low carb/high protein/high fat enthusiasts. From there, my libido & mood lowered. I still felt like it was "part of the process" for some reason as many do. I then caught on to intermittent fasting (this must finally be it!) This was the worst one for me, even by abiding by reasonable nutrition principles, excluding PUFA consumption. I eat rice, potatoes, decently high PUFA for a while. I barely ever eat fruits or sugars. At this time, I got my testosterone tested and it came back at over 800, with an extremely elevated free testosterone score. I was mind boggled - as i felt terrible at the time with pretty severe OCD. After reading anabolic men and other testosterone websites i thought a high free t score meant supreme health. It turns out the idiot (you know Ray Peat) hypothesizes that high free testosterone usually reveals high unbound free fatty acids and PUFA levels, which in turn lower SHBG. I tend to agree.

About 9 months ago i found RP, increased sugar & carbs overall, while keeping PUFA low. I still eat starches, and listen to my body and eat when hungry. I find i naturally have an anabolic metabolism that needs sugar & fuel 4-5 x a day when eating well. (Fruits, white rice, butter, good meat, coffee, etc.) And i feel great. In fact, the best i have since i was in college. Whenever i have felt my best, i have eaten more or less this meal frequency.

Your points against Peat, Haidut & others defy proof. Talk to @tca300 who went from being hypothyroid and having low T to being ripped and having T at 1,000. Talk to @tyler - essentially the same story. @haidut started out in terrible health as well from Paleo, and now is incredibly healthy and anaerobic after finding the theories of metabolism.

You claim you are healthy but you come off as a negative & salty dude. You keep bringing up @tyw & @Westside PUFAs - which is ironic because all of their posts i see are never negative or salty. They simply don't agree with some of RP's preachings, which is different from calling him an idiot and insulting people. Where is your proof that you are healthy? Go on to another forum, man. You are wasting your time.

 

[Jack Roe]

"Since it's clear that you are also from Paranoid , Conspiracy group it will probably be very hard for you to understand what I have said. I think your " dope" damaged your understanding of "reality"."

What you've said is fairly simple, you have something that works for you, tho it took you a bit of experimentation to get there. Believe it or not, you are not saying anything all that profound! There's no paranoia in suggesting dietary advice is political, even if the only way it is political is that large structures like states have a great ability to push a single narrative on their populations, e.g. recommendations regarding salt, fat, etc. "Conspiracy" does not necessarily mean maliciousness.

"impair you perception and possibly make you autistic."

Your attitude here is pretty typical of high-functioning autism, especially the silly "if you don't agree with me, it is because I am smarter than you and you are dumb!" part, also your ideosyncratic talk about "broken" people, etc. etc. It sounds like you have a _very nice_ "little story," and if it brings you a happy life, that is great, but given the amount of invective you have for _complete strangers_ on the Internet, I have a hard time believing that this is the case. I mean, and I say this from personal experience, if I had something better than this to be doing, I'd be doing it. So you either have nothing better to be doing, or you do, and you are such a giving, liberal-minded man that you are deigning to visit us peasants with your great wisdom.

"Good analogy is also that if you look by design it's also a design in nature to keep the circle of life and ensure both life and death"

I don't know how you expect to be taken seriously as an adult on nutritional matters if you are really saying, if I understand you correctly, that there is some "grand design" such that fruits are a little bit toxic, in order to promote the death of the creatures that consume them. What's more likely is that fruits and mammals have had independent evolutionary trajectories for a long time, and that, if you're right, and fruits are toxic, it's happenstance. I mean, jeez, you are maligning people for "conspiracy" talk, and you're saying fruit is part of some Natural Conspiracy to "ensure both life and death." Jeez, that's too much, man.

 

[tca300]

Yup, I corrected many issues using Rays suggestions. I was in such bad shape I actually tried to take my life, which thankfully I was unsuccessful at. Shortly after I stumbled on Rays website, learned, paid him for consultations, and years later here I am, at 26 years old feeling about 10,000% better that at 16.

 

[Regina]

Yup, I corrected many issues using Rays suggestions. I was in such bad shape I actually tried to take my life, which thankfully I was unsuccessful at. Shortly after I stumbled on Rays website, learned, paid him for consultations, and years later here I am, at 26 years old feeling about 10,000% better that at 16.

We are glad you are here.

 

[Jsaute21]

"Since it's clear that you are also from Paranoid , Conspiracy group it will probably be very hard for you to understand what I have said. I think your " dope" damaged your understanding of "reality"."

What you've said is fairly simple, you have something that works for you, tho it took you a bit of experimentation to get there. Believe it or not, you are not saying anything all that profound! There's no paranoia in suggesting dietary advice is political, even if the only way it is political is that large structures like states have a great ability to push a single narrative on their populations, e.g. recommendations regarding salt, fat, etc. "Conspiracy" does not necessarily mean maliciousness.

"impair you perception and possibly make you autistic."

Your attitude here is pretty typical of high-functioning autism, especially the silly "if you don't agree with me, it is because I am smarter than you and you are dumb!" part, also your ideosyncratic talk about "broken" people, etc. etc. It sounds like you have a _very nice_ "little story," and if it brings you a happy life, that is great, but given the amount of invective you have for _complete strangers_ on the Internet, I have a hard time believing that this is the case. I mean, and I say this from personal experience, if I had something better than this to be doing, I'd be doing it. So you either have nothing better to be doing, or you do, and you are such a giving, liberal-minded man that you are deigning to visit us peasants with your great wisdom.

"Good analogy is also that if you look by design it's also a design in nature to keep the circle of life and ensure both life and death"

I don't know how you expect to be taken seriously as an adult on nutritional matters if you are really saying, if I understand you correctly, that there is some "grand design" such that fruits are a little bit toxic, in order to promote the death of the creatures that consume them. What's more likely is that fruits and mammals have had independent evolutionary trajectories for a long time, and that, if you're right, and fruits are toxic, it's happenstance. I mean, jeez, you are maligning people for "conspiracy" talk, and you're saying fruit is part of some Natural Conspiracy to "ensure both life and death." Jeez, that's too much, man.

Mic dropped.

 

[Jsaute21]

Yup, I corrected many issues using Rays suggestions. I was in such bad shape I actually tried to take my life, which thankfully I was unsuccessful at. Shortly after I stumbled on Rays website, learned, paid him for consultations, and years later here I am, at 26 years old feeling about 10,000% better that at 16.

Yeah, thank god that didn't happen man. Glad to see you doing so well.