Thyroid- Does Everyone Take It Expecting To Eventually Come Off

[Sagitarrius90]

I've been scouring the boards today and I've seen a certain trend in that we discuss going on thyroid, what type of thyroid medication to use ETC yet no one has discussed in much detail about coming off of thyroid.

In the case where on comes off of thyroid is everyone under the assumption of ray's views that it takes roughly, "2-3 days" to bounce back to pre thyroid medication levels or would others say and agree that 2-5 weeks which most scientific studies suggest.

I guess going on thyroid is more important then the after thought of coming off.

I raise this issue because I am currently coming off of thyroid yet I'm having a rough go. I strongly disagree that it takes 2-3 days to recover as I'm experiencing hypo symptoms that I didnt have prior to taking the medication.

Perhaps I want to start a debate as to whether it's worth going on something that you eventually have to come off vs naturally increasing thyroid levels

 

[Jessie]

I think it's one of those things that you need to go by feeling. If you come off thyroid and feel like s**t, then I think that's a pretty good indicator to get back on it. Conversely, if you don't feel right while on thyroid, then don't take it.

Personally I like how thyroid makes me feel, but every time I take it I have an incurable insomnia to move in. No matter what I do I can't really sleep. Thiamine, in high enough dosages, will cause the exact same symptoms. Some people say it's just an over sensitization to adrenaline, or maybe something like re-feeding syndrome, where your hypo symptoms will initially get worse before they get better. But like, what am I suppose to do, not sleep for 6-7 days before I adapt, lol?

So for these reasons I'm not taking thyroid at the moment. I've pondered trying to give it another shot, but honestly my sleep is far more important to me then my hypothyrodism. I rather just live hypo and sleep good, because I'm not a pleasant person when I haven't slept good for 2-3 days.

 

[Sagitarrius90]

Well for me going from 50 mcg to 0 looking back on it was insanity since I've clearly suppressed endogenous production. I would go far as to say at times I took more but I'm in this situation and seems you are too where you're questioning why? Even if you do it (in my scenerio) in a more productive way are you willing to pay out of pocket for the rest of you're life when perhaps you can get you're levels to improve by just peating? I get it some people cant and it's almost like a "I cant take it anymore" type of deal and they take thyroid but for people with semi decent health it's like why even chance it. Suppression will always be a possibility at lower doses probably not but I heard messing with doses even around 12.5mcg can interfere with other regulatory systems of the thyroid and would down regulate it thus causing peripheral hypothyroidism.

I'll leave this here but 2-3 days for the thyroid to recover is just wrong from experience to basically all of the internet and other scientific studies its 2-5 weeks. Week 1 from 50 mcg to 0 was hell I've sincer tapered

 

[Jessie]

Yeah I agree. I think if you can correct the problem without a supplement, then that's obviously the right way to go. I think if someone's issue is PUFA or endotoxin, then the problem could eventually be corrected through environment changes. But if someone's gland isn't producing enough hormone, then I think they'll probably have to use a supplement.

From my understanding, T4's half life is really long and it has a cumulative effect to it. It seems to me that a couple weeks would be needed for the thyroid to recover from discontinuing a supplement. I was under the impression this was fairly uncontroversial.

 

[sweetpeat]

Perhaps I want to start a debate as to whether it's worth going on something that you eventually have to come off vs naturally increasing thyroid levels

Broda Barnes believed that roughly half the population have some degree of thyroid deficiency. From birth. Many of these used to die in childhood or young adulthood from diseases and infections before the days of antibiotics and better sanitation. Now, most of them die of heart attacks in middle age, but the atherosclerosis has been building since childhood because of thyroid deficiency. (This information is in his book, Solved: The Riddle of Heart Attacks.) If this is true, then it may not be possible or wise for many people on thyroid to come off.

I do believe that there are people who make themselves hypothyroid through poor lifestyle decisions. It's possible, even probable, that those types can restore full thyroid function through better choices. Peat seems to think so and I agree it's worth trying. And maybe some of the ones with mild congenital thyroid deficiency can improve function without supplementing thyroid. But that still leaves a fairly large number that need to go on and stay on.

I personally have tried to come off thyroid twice. The first time I was able to get off completely because my dose wasn't terribly high. I lasted about two weeks before I couldn't take the symptoms anymore and went back on. This last time I was coming from a much larger dose and did about a 75% reduction before symptoms got bad. I feel overall they were good experiments, though I admit I was a little worried about my heart this last reduction since I'm 5 years older than the last time. I tried to take it slow. But what it taught me is that I'm probably one of the ones who has had thyroid deficiency since birth. I had a lot of sickness as a kid and probably would have died young if I'd been born, say, fifty years earlier. I should add, I'm able to lower my dose in the summer, but I'll never probably be able to safely stop taking it.

 

[mrchibbs]

Perhaps I want to start a debate as to whether it's worth going on something that you eventually have to come off vs naturally increasing thyroid levels

There is a reason why your thyroid levels are suppressed. It's a reflection of the terrible stress we're under. I definitely agree that in theory, increasing thyroid levels "naturally" seems like the best option. But I don't think I'll manage to sufficiently improve my environment and life to the point where my thyroid is firing on all cylinders.

At some point if we're suffering from various problems and are hypo, we're probably fighting against years of cumulative stress and inadequate development. I personally don't foresee that I'll ever come off some thyroid supplement.

I think the dose may be reduced eventually, but, in reality, everything about modern life is so profoundly anti-thyroid that I need the extra help. Moreover, thyroid glands used to be a part of the diet several decades ago. And the anti-thyroid factors were not as prominent back then.

 

[mrchibbs]

Broda Barnes believed that roughly half the population have some degree of thyroid deficiency. From birth. Many of these used to die in childhood or young adulthood from diseases and infections before the days of antibiotics and better sanitation. Now, most of them die of heart attacks in middle age, but the atherosclerosis has been building since childhood because of thyroid deficiency. (This information is in his book, Solved: The Riddle of Heart Attacks.) If this is true, then it may not be possible or wise for many people on thyroid to come off.

I do believe that there are people who make themselves hypothyroid through poor lifestyle decisions. It's possible, even probable, that those types can restore full thyroid function through better choices. Peat seems to think so and I agree it's worth trying. And maybe some of the ones with mild congenital thyroid deficiency can improve function without supplementing thyroid. But that still leaves a fairly large number that need to go on and stay on.

I personally have tried to come off thyroid twice. The first time I was able to get off completely because my dose wasn't terribly high. I lasted about two weeks before I couldn't take the symptoms anymore and went back on. This last time I was coming from a much larger dose and did about a 75% reduction before symptoms got bad. I feel overall they were good experiments, though I admit I was a little worried about my heart this last reduction since I'm 5 years older than the last time. I tried to take it slow. But what it taught me is that I'm probably one of the ones who has had thyroid deficiency since birth. I had a lot of sickness as a kid and probably would have died young if I'd been born, say, fifty years earlier. I should add, I'm able to lower my dose in the summer, but I'll never probably be able to safely stop taking it.

Great post!

 

[Sagitarrius90]

Sweatpeat from you're POV (point of view) I get the reasonable argument why you would want to take it.

For me I had an eating disorder when I was 15 that had me in ICU for 2 weeks before being moved to a normal setting. I've ever since had hypo symptoms yet my tsh is also low yet low t3 and low t4 hormones never got treated. Thyroid Is amazing but it does have a cumulative effect and temps and hr are crucial as well.

It's clear those who need it should take it and enjoy you're life the best you can money shouldnt be a sticking point but where as for me I'm in decent health yet I guess now that I'm tapering down and getting hypo it's like what for why did I do this. Benefits while dieting helped immensely but the 2-5 weeks when it recovers arent something to be brushed over it's pretty bad mentally and for sleep and potential weight gain due to a decreased BMR

 

[sweetpeat]

Sweatpeat from you're POV (point of view) I get the reasonable argument why you would want to take it.

For me I had an eating disorder when I was 15 that had me in ICU for 2 weeks before being moved to a normal setting. I've ever since had hypo symptoms yet my tsh is also low yet low t3 and low t4 hormones never got treated. Thyroid Is amazing but it does have a cumulative effect and temps and hr are crucial as well.

It's clear those who need it should take it and enjoy you're life the best you can money shouldnt be a sticking point but where as for me I'm in decent health yet I guess now that I'm tapering down and getting hypo it's like what for why did I do this. Benefits while dieting helped immensely but the 2-5 weeks when it recovers arent something to be brushed over it's pretty bad mentally and for sleep and potential weight gain due to a decreased BMR

Yes, I agree. It's rough. Like I said, after two weeks I couldn't take it anymore. I too was hoping for the 2-3 days Peat has mentioned. I just figured I wasn't healthy enough to stop the thyroid yet, especially the first time. Sounds like you might be one of the ones made hypo through lifestyle choices? Hopefully so, and you can get it all sorted out.

Great post!

Thank you . I know you're a fan of Broda Barnes. I meant to include this quote from his book:

Thyroid is not a drug which is being taken, but a complement to one's normal hormone production that has been found inadequate .

 

[Jennifer]

My hope was that by taking NDT I would finally tolerate foods that foster regeneration so I wouldn’t need supplements to thrive in the future. So far so good but if it turns out I need it for life, I’m okay with that, especially since I was born hypo from a mum who was born hypo and I live in a climate that isn’t exactly pro-thyroid. Plus, thyroid glands used to be a regular part of my family’s diet (we’ve lived in this region for at least 5 generations) and even though I have things to manipulate my environment that my ancestors didn’t have, I still think there is some validity to eating similarly to them. Even when they had access to year round fruit via canning and other preservation methods, they still included thyroid in their diet, which makes me think it’s normal that I may benefit from consuming it long-term if I choose to stay in the north.

 

[mrchibbs]

@sweetpeat

That quote sums up the entire point quite succinctly

 

[sweetpeat]

@Nick Borcic Something else I meant to add, I wish there was more guidance in coming off thyroid, from Peat or whoever. I looked around but couldn't find much. Most people I read said "Don't do it!!!"
Probably the best approach is a reverse of going on it? Instead of adding slowly while watching temps and pulse, you subtract slowly while doing the same. That's basically how I reduce my dose for the summer. But this year I decided to see how low I could take it.

I was born hypo from a mum who was born hypo and I live in a climate that isn’t exactly pro-thyroid.

Yes! Same here! lol And I've noticed I need less thyroid when I visit family down south. I think it's the extra sunlight. Environment can make such a difference.

 

[JudiBlueHen]

Broda Barnes believed that roughly half the population have some degree of thyroid deficiency. From birth. Many of these used to die in childhood or young adulthood from diseases and infections before the days of antibiotics and better sanitation. Now, most of them die of heart attacks in middle age, but the atherosclerosis has been building since childhood because of thyroid deficiency. (This information is in his book, Solved: The Riddle of Heart Attacks.) If this is true, then it may not be possible or wise for many people on thyroid to come off.

I have this book and enjoyed it - the only question it left with me is WHY is thyroid deficiency so common even back when he wrote the book? Does anyone have an explanation of why so many would be suffering 50+ years ago? We can presume a larger percentage suffering today due to the food issues we all talk about, but how did such a widespread problem get started?

 

[mrchibbs]

I have this book and enjoyed it - the only question it left with me is WHY is thyroid deficiency so common even back when he wrote the book? Does anyone have an explanation of why so many would be suffering 50+ years ago? We can presume a larger percentage suffering today due to the food issues we all talk about, but how did such a widespread problem get started?

The environment had already degraded significantly by the 1950s. Air pollution, WW2, radiation, industrialization of the food supply etc. I think the declines in temperatures have been in steady decline since the "normal temperatures" of 98.6F were established in the mid 19th century.

 

[Ableton]

what WOULD happen if our thyroids weren't downregulated despite the stress?
A downregulated thyroid affects live quality quite severely I would argue, so I am trying to understand how this is protective

 

[SQu]

To add to those many reasons why more people are hypothyroid - RP said that sometime in the first half of the 20th century, the thyroid gland that used to be included in our meat, started to be removed. Until then, everyone got about half a grain a day from their food (hope I remembered that right). He's said this many times but this last time it finally hit home what a radical change this was. Everyone was on thyroid. Now it's only a handful that the gatekeepers let through.

I don't see it as something to come off ever, unless you make some big change in your life, like moving to a high altitude and greatly reducing the modern stress-creating lifestyle. With the possible exception of progesterone, it's the only supplement I see this way.

 

[Jennifer]

The environment had already degraded significantly by the 1950s. Air pollution, WW2, radiation, industrialization of the food supply etc. I think the declines in temperatures have been in steady decline since the "normal temperatures" of 98.6F were established in the mid 19th century.

This, and I would add societal beliefs that shaped our dietary habits, and even our very nature, leading up to the 1950s. For example, religious beliefs, superstitious beliefs, beliefs about properness and purity like that of the Victorian era, beliefs about gender and race etc. The Natural Hygiene Movement of the 1800s is an examples of this and if you look at old books and cookbooks from the seventeen and eighteen hundreds, you’ll see they had some strange beliefs. In one cookbook I looked at from the 1700s, it was advised to only obtain and prepare fish under the light of the moon. In a dietary book from the 1800s, women were advised to eat only light proteins such as eggs and chicken because of the prominent belief at that time that we were the weaker sex.

To add to those many reasons why more people are hypothyroid - RP said that sometime in the first half of the 20th century, the thyroid gland that used to be included in our meat, started to be removed. Until then, everyone got about half a grain a day from their food (hope I remembered that right). He's said this many times but this last time it finally hit home what a radical change this was. Everyone was on thyroid. Now it's only a handful that the gatekeepers let through.

Yes, exactly! This is what I meant by my ancestors having thyroid as a regular part of their diet. No part of the animal was wasted back then. I’m not sure if it was as essential for those living closer to the equator, but my guess is thyroid was still a regular part of their diet too given they also used all parts of the animal, and still do in many countries.

 

[Sagitarrius90]

How would we get off if we decided it was necessary or to do it in a way so that we can re-evaluate our dosing. Say if someone was using t3/t4 and titrated up but started getting bad side effect's I would assume you would titrate downward again until symptoms dissapear

 

[Jennifer]

How would we get off if we decided it was necessary or to do it in a way so that we can re-evaluate our dosing. Say if someone was using t3/t4 and titrated up but started getting bad side effect's I would assume you would titrate downward again until symptoms dissapear

That’s what I did when I was trying to find a proper dose. I reduced my dose by 1/4 grain every two weeks.

 

[mrchibbs]

what WOULD happen if our thyroids weren't downregulated despite the stress?
A downregulated thyroid affects live quality quite severely I would argue, so I am trying to understand how this is protective

It’s about survival. An active thyroid causes tissue energy requirements to go up. That’s clearly not a good thing in times of chronic stress, because it leads to rapid depletion of energy resources.