Medical Establishment Way Ahead Of Peat

[ThinPicking]

What freedom or rights are you losing from getting the same treatment for free rather than having to file bankruptcy?

I'm referring to the national debt as a whole.

Financing isn't my primary concern though. See original comment.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Why isn't it? I think the concept of allowing everyone equal treatment despite their financial situation for free is a noble goal.

I don't think it's a noble goal at all, I think it is ignorant at best, downright sinister and evil at worst.

The idea of "equal treatment" is silly, as when people get sick or have health issues, those issues aren't "equal," even if they fall under a standard umbrella term, like "diabetes" or "cancer." What you end up with is "standardized care," which creates many of it's own problems.

Second, nothing is "free" in this world, there is always a cost. All you are doing is shifting the cost away from the person receiving treatment, to a third party, in this case, the government. In a case like this (and it's the same with insurance companies), you have intruded on the doctor/patient relationship, and allowed a third party to intrude on treatment. If that third party is paying for care, don't they have a right to help choose or influence treatment? It's hard to argue that they don't. No matter how you slice it, its now a doctor/payer/patient relationship.

I think divorcing the cost from the patient also causes the patient themselves to be less invested in their own health or treatment. Ask anyone who has purchased a car (new or used) about the car, and they can tell you a number of features about car, from make, model, color, performance, engine specs, features, and so on. Radiation and Chemotherapy for cancer can cost much more than most cars (maybe on par with high end luxury models), but ask someone undergoing those treatments for all the potential features, benefits, and side effects of those therapies. Ask if it will extend or shorten their life. Ask how much they researched it. Ask how effective it is. Chances are, they won't be able to tell you a damn thing. One of the biggest financial decisions of their life (and possibly bigger in terms of potential health costs), and they are clueless.

If someone truly wanted to be noble, instead of government health care, how about starting a free clinic? Or a charity that helps with medical costs for those with low incomes? If there were more free market options for the medical consumer, prices would drop and care would improve. The way medicine is set up in most countries right now is either as a monopoly or cartel.

 

[ThinPicking]

I don't think it's a noble goal at all, I think it is ignorant at best, downright sinister and evil at worst.

The idea of "equal treatment" is silly, as when people get sick or have health issues, those issues aren't "equal," even if they fall under a standard umbrella term, like "diabetes" or "cancer." What you end up with is "standardized care," which creates many of it's own problems.

Second, nothing is "free" in this world, there is always a cost. All you are doing is shifting the cost away from the person receiving treatment, to a third party, in this case, the government. In a case like this (and it's the same with insurance companies), you have intruded on the doctor/patient relationship, and allowed a third party to intrude on treatment. If that third party is paying for care, don't they have a right to help choose or influence treatment? It's hard to argue that they don't. No matter how you slice it, its now a doctor/payer/patient relationship.

I think divorcing the cost from the patient also causes the patient themselves to be less invested in their own health or treatment. Ask anyone who has purchased a car (new or used) about the car, and they can tell you a number of features about car, from make, model, color, performance, engine specs, features, and so on. Radiation and Chemotherapy for cancer can cost much more than most cars (maybe on par with high end luxury models), but ask someone undergoing those treatments for all the potential features, benefits, and side effects of those therapies. Ask if it will extend or shorten their life. Ask how much they researched it. Ask how effective it is. Chances are, they won't be able to tell you a damn thing. One of the biggest financial decisions of their life (and possibly bigger in terms of potential health costs), and they are clueless.

If someone truly wanted to be noble, instead of government health care, how about starting a free clinic? Or a charity that helps with medical costs for those with low incomes? If there were more free market options for the medical consumer, prices would drop and care would improve. The way medicine is set up in most countries right now is either as a monopoly or cartel.

Thank you so much for articulating this.

 

[ursidae]

What are you in the hospital for? How are they killing people?

Endoscopy, colonoscopy
Verbally abusive staff, forcing a frail 71 diabetic woman to fast for 3 days, breaking the fast with raw cabbage and chicken cooked in PUFA. The non diabetics are primarily fed white bread, white rice cooked in sunflower oil, occasional chicken, occasional potatoes. Nutrient poor, hypo-caloric diet, everything is drenched in heated PUFA. Her body rejected the cabbage and she vomited, after which she was screamed at for being nauseous. Luckily there was a cup of yoghurt in the staff’s supply and she could eat that just fine. But she is still deteriorating pretty fast and I think the poor treatment is a source of psychological stress that does not help at all

 

[ThinPicking]

Endoscopy, colonoscopy
Verbally abusive staff, forcing a frail 71 diabetic woman to fast for 3 days, breaking the fast with raw cabbage and chicken cooked in PUFA. The non diabetics are primarily fed white bread, white rice cooked in sunflower oil, occasional chicken, occasional potatoes. Nutrient poor, hypo-caloric diet, everything is drenched in heated PUFA. Her body rejected the cabbage and she vomited, after which she was screamed at for being nauseous. Luckily there was a cup of yoghurt and she could eat that just fine. But she is still deteriorating pretty fast and I think the poor treatment is a source of psychological stress that does not help at all

So sorry you have to bear witness directly @ursidae, and for those subjected.

 

[ursidae]

So sorry you have to bear witness directly @ursidae, and for those subjected.

You know I can’t imagine the strain healthcare workers are under, compassion fatigue exists, nobody is perfect. And there are some truly decent people working here but really all it takes is a handful of sociopaths and everything goes down the drain. One thing is certain, they need to sort out the crap they’re feeding people

 

[Maljam]

I don't think it's a noble goal at all, I think it is ignorant at best, downright sinister and evil at worst.

The idea of "equal treatment" is silly, as when people get sick or have health issues, those issues aren't "equal," even if they fall under a standard umbrella term, like "diabetes" or "cancer." What you end up with is "standardized care," which creates many of it's own problems.

Second, nothing is "free" in this world, there is always a cost. All you are doing is shifting the cost away from the person receiving treatment, to a third party, in this case, the government. In a case like this (and it's the same with insurance companies), you have intruded on the doctor/patient relationship, and allowed a third party to intrude on treatment. If that third party is paying for care, don't they have a right to help choose or influence treatment? It's hard to argue that they don't. No matter how you slice it, its now a doctor/payer/patient relationship.

I think divorcing the cost from the patient also causes the patient themselves to be less invested in their own health or treatment. Ask anyone who has purchased a car (new or used) about the car, and they can tell you a number of features about car, from make, model, color, performance, engine specs, features, and so on. Radiation and Chemotherapy for cancer can cost much more than most cars (maybe on par with high end luxury models), but ask someone undergoing those treatments for all the potential features, benefits, and side effects of those therapies. Ask if it will extend or shorten their life. Ask how much they researched it. Ask how effective it is. Chances are, they won't be able to tell you a damn thing. One of the biggest financial decisions of their life (and possibly bigger in terms of potential health costs), and they are clueless.

If someone truly wanted to be noble, instead of government health care, how about starting a free clinic? Or a charity that helps with medical costs for those with low incomes? If there were more free market options for the medical consumer, prices would drop and care would improve. The way medicine is set up in most countries right now is either as a monopoly or cartel.

Do you think the current healthcare system of the USA is working? I can't work out what you are suggesting from your post that is any different from the current system? Apart from you suggest people make a charity to pay for poor peoples medical bills which seems like a pharmaceutical executives wet dream.

What point are you trying to make about the cancer patient and learning about their treatment and cost? I can't work out what you are trying to say.

 

[lvysaur]

long slow cardio being healthy

I'd argue that long slow cardio (walking) is the healthiest form of exercise you can do. If you're talking about jogging, then yes it's bad if done for a long time, but it's definitely not slow.

As for the conspiracy theories, I support them but only insofar as they involve money, personal gain, or national security.

Authorities promote unhealthy diets because A) it makes money via pharma/surgeons/doctors etc., but also B) because it allows more people to live (poorly) in the same space, which increases the workforce and military numbers and C) it takes money away from poorer countries (imagine how much richer India, Thailand, Brazil etc would be if the world started shifting to coconut oil)

If someone truly wanted to be noble, instead of government health care, how about starting a free clinic?

Isn't that basically what the Ray Peat Forum, as well as many other websites, are? Of course nothing is free so people must use their own judgement and intelligence when following these sources. But it is free.

 

[ThinPicking]

Do you think the current healthcare system of the USA is working? I can't work out what you are suggesting from your post that is any different from the current system? Apart from you suggest people make a charity to pay for poor peoples medical bills which seems like a pharmaceutical executives wet dream.

What point are you trying to make about the cancer patient and learning about their treatment and cost? I can't work out what you are trying to say.

@Maljam please. It's all there and well written.

"If there were more free market options for the medical consumer, prices would drop and care would improve. The way medicine is set up in most countries right now is either as a monopoly or cartel."

Something's got to give. We keep being told there are only resource issues and we just need more. More money, more doctors, more nurses, more drugs, more more more. Look beyond this.

 

[Maljam]

@Maljam please. It's all there and well written.

"If there were more free market options for the medical consumer, prices would drop and care would improve. The way medicine is set up in most countries right now is either as a monopoly or cartel."

Something's got to give. We keep being told there are only resource issues and we just need more. More money, more doctors, more nurses, more drugs, more more more. Look beyond this.

Yes, got you, thank you for quoting that. Free market healthcare would be ideal in theory, but that seems like a fantasy more than a reality if you look at the current system and powers. The whole of society would have to change for that to become a reality. I still argue the NHS style is better than the health insurance system of the USA though.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Do you think the current healthcare system of the USA is working? I can't work out what you are suggesting from your post that is any different from the current system? Apart from you suggest people make a charity to pay for poor peoples medical bills which seems like a pharmaceutical executives wet dream..

I don't think the current healthcare system in the US is working all that well. But the US system isn't anything close to "Free Market." It's pretty close to the UK system, with lots of excess government interference, and lots of Government funded healthcare, in the case of Medicare, Medicaid, and various state run programs, and Obamacare.

I never suggested that a charity be "forced" to pay medical bills for poor people, but that could be an option for true humanitarians. Why would that be a dream for Pharmaceutical Execs? They already pretty much own the FDA/CDC/NIH and such.

In case you didn't understand the problem I have..... it's third party entities encroaching on the Doctor/Patient relationship, and that includes ANY third party payer, and also entities like the FDA and State Medical Boards.

I have no desire to submit to any public run healthcare at this point. I pretty much will either handle matters on my own, or through private contracts.

 

[Maljam]

I don't think the current healthcare system in the US is working all that well. But the US system isn't anything close to "Free Market." It's pretty close to the UK system, with lots of excess government interference, and lots of Government funded healthcare, in the case of Medicare, Medicaid, and various state run programs, and Obamacare.

I never suggested that a charity be "forced" to pay medical bills for poor people, but that could be an option for true humanitarians. Why would that be a dream for Pharmaceutical Execs? They already pretty much own the FDA/CDC/NIH and such.

In case you didn't understand the problem I have..... it's third party entities encroaching on the Doctor/Patient relationship, and that includes ANY third party payer, and also entities like the FDA and State Medical Boards.

I have no desire to submit to any public run healthcare at this point. I pretty much will either handle matters on my own, or through private contracts.

Yes I didn't understand the problem you had at first, thank you for the clarification.

 

[tankasnowgod]

The whole of society would have to change for that to become a reality.

No it wouldn't. Only the structure of government would have to change. Although that itself is quite a challenge.

 

[PxD]

I think it probably started out as negligent ignorance, at least in regards to the PUFA thing. According to Peat, we made a drastic switch from coconut oil and palm oil to vegetable oils after we invaded the tropics in WW2. I think this sort of happened by chance.

Where things became totally corrupt, was after Broda Barnes obtained irrefutable strong evidence that chronic illness (CVD & diabetes anyways) is caused by a slowed metabolic rate. The fact the medical establishment swept his work under the table to bury it is profoundly disturbing. Because it shows a clear disregard for public safety in the name of profit.

The lipid theory of disease was far more profitable to certain industries then simply thyroid administration.

I thought the switch happened when cheap hydrocarbons became more and more widespread and threatened the seed oil manufacturers' traditional markets, so the seed oil makers hired some NGOs and scientists to produce some junk studies for them that they could use to market seed oil to the food industry...and the rest is history.

 

[Jessie]

@PxD There could've been several points of deviation, I just remember reading the WW2 thing in one of Peat's articles. I think one of the first seed oils was Wesson corn oil, but further down the timeline they introduced stuff like soybean oil and cottonseed oil, changes in industry favortism and whatnot. Now ***t like canola oil, sunflower oil, and safflower oil is being pushed.

 

[Geronimo]

If they were truly ahead of him then all the "elites" (who have access to the "best" medical care) would not be dropping like flies from things like cancer, neurodegenerative disease, or even COVID-19. There is a lot of ignorance (and at this point outright microcephalism/idiotism) in science and it has led to almost complete stagnation.
Science Is Stagnant, No Real Progress Since Early 20th Century

That being said, there is indeed strong evidence that some circles of the medical industry are definitely more malicious than ignorant. Especially, when it comes to therapies with estrogen, radiation, eating PUFA, etc.
Massive Fraud Was Used To Sell The Public On The Safety Of HRT (estrogen)
NAS falsified data on radiation safety to justify widespread use!

I didn't mean it as an offense to Dr. Peat. It's actually a compliment to one's intellectual integrity to not only come from a formal educational background and trudge through all of it, but to speak out in great detail about it and become influential through dissent. My post was very generalized for dramatic effect admittedly, because there are pockets of health care and science that actually do make some progress. But, in my opinion, it has widely been an objective failure steered deliberately in that direction for obvious personal gain by very powerful people. You know as well as anyone that the state of physical and mental health in Americans is truly awful and lucrative. The majority of practitioners in the field actually seem to believe all the BS the general public has been told, and use it themselves.

 

[haidut]

I didn't mean it as an offense to Dr. Peat. It's actually a compliment to one's intellectual integrity to not only come from a formal educational background and trudge through all of it, but to speak out in great detail about it and become influential through dissent. My post was very generalized for dramatic effect admittedly, because there are pockets of health care and science that actually do make some progress. But, in my opinion, it has widely been an objective failure steered deliberately in that direction for obvious personal gain by very powerful people. You know as well as anyone that the state of physical and mental health in Americans is truly awful and lucrative. The majority of practitioners in the field actually seem to believe all the BS the general public has been told, and use it themselves.

I did not take it as an insult to him. I was just relaying my own thoughts and I certainly hope most of the issues we face are due to ignorance instead of malice. But ignorance tends to self-correct if innovation/creativity is allowed to flourish. The fact that most developed countries have abysmal population health suggests something more sinister is at play, yet I am also hopeful because the interconnectedness of the modern world means it is not really possible to keep progress suppressed indefinitely if it sprouts independently from sufficiently many places.

 

[DawN]

I've come to the realization that the medical establishment is very well aware of everything Dr. Peat has been saying. They've been aware of it all for a very long time, well before him. Because they are aware of it, they were able to recommend everything that is unhealthy and portray it as healthy. Vegetable oils being healthy, saturated fat being bad, sugar being so bad, long slow cardio being healthy, low-carb high veggie diets, and the list goes on.

They specifically recommend all the unhealthy crap in order to drive people into doctor's offices and, even better in their eyes, to hospitals. They are not stupid or bad at science; quite the opposite is true. They employ the most precise and ruthless intelligence. They are deliberately recommending all this ridiculous stuff to make us sick, take our money, control food supply and ultimately control us. When you control the colleges and the medical licensing standards, this can be accomplished. I passionately detest coincidence theories. Random mass delusion is much less likely than a deliberate plot devised by the most powerful members of society that works in their favor to the tune of trillions of dollars. I see no other explanation at this point.

It contributes much to my mental weelbeing to read such lines; thank you for posting the evident in this clarity. It‘s all need to be said and repeated again and again, just like they have spread the lies, we are in duty to bring the truth back to victory.
Thumbs up. We‘ll bring them to fall. I believe it. And never doubt that we will finally free this world from their lies. Because „The truth will make you free“

 

[tankasnowgod]

@PxD There could've been several points of deviation, I just remember reading the WW2 thing in one of Peat's articles. I think one of the first seed oils was Wesson corn oil, but further down the timeline they introduced stuff like soybean oil and cottonseed oil, changes in industry favortism and whatnot. Now ***t like canola oil, sunflower oil, and safflower oil is being pushed.

It's one of those things that got worse over time. The first of these type of oils to hit the food supply was around 1890, in the form of Crisco. But it was less damaging, being hydrogenated, so it had a higher percentage of saturated and trans fats to protect against the dangerous polyunsaturated fats (note- I looked into the studies against Trans Fats, and concluded myself that higher trans fat intake was mostly a marker for higher PUFA intake, both in observation human and RCT rodent studies, done from the 60s-90s. I'd encourage everyone else interested to do the same).

Fat composition was getting slightly more unsaturated until the 1970s. (note, Iron fortification began in the 1940s). In the 70s, the "official" stance became that Saturated Fat was harmful, and should be replaced by PUFA. This would have an instant effect on any sort of government provided food, but took a long time to affect the general population's ideas and habits. The next big strike happened around 1990, when McDonald's switched from Beef Tallow to Vegetable Oils. A major coup for the vegetable oil industry, as McDonalds was the biggest restaurant by far. Many other restaurants and chains followed suit over time.

The war on hydrogenation in the 2000s was the next blow, as now all these same oils became much more dangerous with their higher PUFA content. And as Soy in the 2000s went from being a minor subsidy, to overwhelmingly the most subsidized food in the US (getting something like 80-90% of all food subsidy money by 2010), PUFA intake is now at it's highest levels, likely in all of history (similar to iron, due mainly to fortification programs). With the average intake of PUFA now sitting around 40-50g per day, it's over 10x higher than it was in the 40s.

 

[Jessie]

It's one of those things that got worse over time. The first of these type of oils to hit the food supply was around 1890, in the form of Crisco. But it was less damaging, being hydrogenated, so it had a higher percentage of saturated and trans fats to protect against the dangerous polyunsaturated fats (note- I looked into the studies against Trans Fats, and concluded myself that higher trans fat intake was mostly a marker for higher PUFA intake, both in observation human and RCT rodent studies, done from the 60s-90s. I'd encourage everyone else interested to do the same).

Fat composition was getting slightly more unsaturated until the 1970s. (note, Iron fortification began in the 1940s). In the 70s, the "official" stance became that Saturated Fat was harmful, and should be replaced by PUFA. This would have an instant effect on any sort of government provided food, but took a long time to affect the general population's ideas and habits. The next big strike happened around 1990, when McDonald's switched from Beef Tallow to Vegetable Oils. A major coup for the vegetable oil industry, as McDonalds was the biggest restaurant by far. Many other restaurants and chains followed suit over time.

The war on hydrogenation in the 2000s was the next blow, as now all these same oils became much more dangerous with their higher PUFA content. And as Soy in the 2000s went from being a minor subsidy, to overwhelmingly the most subsidized food in the US (getting something like 80-90% of all food subsidy money by 2010), PUFA intake is now at it's highest levels, likely in all of history (similar to iron, due mainly to fortification programs). With the average intake of PUFA now sitting around 40-50g per day, it's over 10x higher than it was in the 40s.

Yeah, I always thought hydrogenation was a scapegoat for the PUFA oils. That pushes people to buy crap like expeller pressed sunflower oil and canola oil, when in reality hydrogenated coconut/palm oil is probably much better.