A Reply To Ray Peat On Essential Fatty Acid Deficiency

YuraCZ

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Apr 24, 2015
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674
Heh I'm under 5g of PUFA per day.. But I have max 1g of omega3 from those 5g of total PUFA per day.. 2g of omega3 and 2g of omega6 would be perfect. But it is nearly impossible for me.. And your speach about fresh vs smelly fish is nice and very true but it doesn't explain why we shouldn't eat (wild)fish even fatty fish from the sea or the ocean...
 

EnoreeG

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Apr 27, 2015
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jyb said:
EnoreeG said:
I'll add two things. If you visit a place where people live primatively, they either fish themselves, or go to a fish market and buy whole fish, fresh caught within the prior 2-5 hours. If they eat this that day, they probably get a healthy source of omega-3. Contrast this with fish caught 3 thousand miles away, frozen or (called "fresh fish") put on ice and delivered for you to pick up at the market, possibly 2 days later. Ever smelled a fish market in the USA? The smell is the rancidity of the omega-3? You'd be better off buying canned fish in some cases. The best fish I ever tasted was in a fish soup I ate in the Philippines. The fish was retrieved from the market and put in the slow boil within hours of being caught. There's a difference between fresh fish and "fresh" fish. Don't forbid yourself eating fish, but be careful.

I don't think healthy cultures like the Masai had access to any fish? It was very heavy dairy and meat, a tiny bit of veges or fruit and zero fish. And still today many dairy tribes just don't seem to be eating any fish. Even if you believe pufa is essential, don't you think there is more than enough in fatty foods like milk and beef?

I totally agree. Your comment with my quote made it seem you thought I was saying we need fish. All I said was if you eat fish, be careful of the freshness. However, I in no way think you need fish, ever, ever, ever, to be healthy. I am even more extreme than you, jyb, or most here, in believing that one can get their essential fats regardless of what they eat, as long as it is fresh and natural. I'm not a vegan. There's problems with a vegan diet. However, I happen to be quite sure that vegans are not deficient in the essential fats, namely linoleic and linolenic acid, or o-6 and o-3. So I am content with people getting sufficient PUFA without even touching meat, dairy, OR fish. People that concentrate on fats in that way are probably getting far more PUFA than they actually need. You asked "....don't you think there is more than enough in fatty foods like milk and beef?" My answer, "Yes, MORE than enough."

Also, dairy/beef eaters may be getting somewhat of an imbalance. Most animals have (if you eat the entire animal) about a 4:1 balance, o-6:eek:-3. Domestic animals tend to be higher, especially if finished on grains. Different organs are very different from that. Check out kidney, liver, and brain. You'll see some organs are 20:1, others are 1:20! Each very out of "balance". Then vegetables run all over the place. Many are higher in omega-3. Who knew? My suggestion is don't worry about balance or quantity. Just eat a varied diet. Things will balance out for you just like they did for primitive man. This is good. It relieves us of mental torture and stress.
 

HDD

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"Eating low-fat seafood (sole, whitefish, turbot, scallops, oysters, lobster, shrimp, squid, etc.) once in a while can provide useful trace minerals, without much risk. However, fish from some parts of the ocean contain industrial contaminants in the fat, and large fish such as tuna, swordfish, Chilean sea bass and halibut contain toxic amounts of mercury in the muscles. Chilean sea bass (Patagonian toothfish) is very high in fat, too.

About ten years ago I met a young man with a degenerative brain disease, and was interested in the fact that he (working on a fishing boat) had been eating almost a pound of salmon per day for several years. There is now enough information regarding the neurotoxic effects of fish oil to justify avoidance of the fatty fish."
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fa ... ion3.shtml
 

haidut

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To me the main argument in favor of Peat is that PUFA directly inhibits cytochrome C oxidase, directly promotes estrogen synthesis, activates TPH and thus activates serotonin synthesis, and lower core body temperature.
Anybody care to show me a study (even one) where they found that any of these above mentioned points are beneficial?
Low oxygen consumption, high estrogen, high serotonin, low core temperature are NOT biomarkers of a healthy mammal.
There is NO question that Ray is right. The only question is what diet would best fit an individual person, and what supplements/drugs (if any) one should take, and how does one measure progress.

If somebody still doubts Ray's points I challenge you to simply go through my posts from the beginning of my membership and simply skim through them. I have posted studies from all over the world, from people not even remotely related to Peat's work, mostly confirming his views, often DECADES after the man expressed them! Also, keep in mind that I simply posted them as things came through the news naturally. So, it's not like I went searching for those things for a few weeks and amassed a pro-Peat collection from the news archives.

I think it is high time for the main section of the forum to move on to more practical questions such as the effects of specific diet (always low in PUFA) on specific biomakers of health for specific individuals. The main goal of the forum should be (IMHO) to help people solve their specific problem, and not so much debate whether Ray has a point or not. The debate probably still has some merits but it is better served by being moved to the "Alternatives" to Peat section. The man is right, get over it! The much BIGGER point here is HOW to take his generally correct ideas and turn them into actionable steps that work for everybody. Another big question would be why some people seem to not be improving on Peat diet. So, things that will have to be addressed are potential chronic infections, nutritional deficiencies, inflammation, etc.
I don't have a solid solution to this issue yet, but I think we can benefit from creating a database of sorts similar to the graphic from the website FPS where they have two sections - "Efficient Metabolism", and "Non-Efficient Metabolism". Then they have a decent list of both foods and supplements that promote or inhibit the proper metabolism. We have collectively posted enough studies on this forum to build a sizeable repository of helpful interventions. Incidentally, this will have the added benefit that once you stat seeing the interplay of nutrients, metabolism, health, and specific conditions you will quickly see and understand for yourself not only that Ray is right about 99% of his stuff, but why he is right. When you see the antagonism between things like niacinamide and resveratrol you will understand that only one of the two can be beneficial for the organism as a supplement. Combining this knowledge with the failed clinical trials of resveratrol and the success of niacinamide in a number of conditions, you will have no choice but to agree with Peat, at least in principle. And when you see how estrogenic resveratrol is, you will agree with Peat on his ideas about estrogen as well. And when you see how estrogen promotes cortisol, serotonin, and prolactin and the havoc that they wreak then you will have to agree with Peat on those issues too. Anyways, you get my point.
I think there will also be a great interest in creating a section for specific conditions that people struggle with and what supplements/drugs may be helpful. This will probably create a huge influx of visitors to the site, but will also draw attention from FDA. So, it has to be handled very very carefully as to not suggest treatments or diagnosis. Simply a list of studies on supplements/drugs, condition, effectiveness, dosage, duration, etc.
Finally, I think we should create a tentative list of blood tests that would be helpful the Peatarian state of an individual and use those blood tests at least informatively to measure/gauge progress. Here is a tentative list I have been using for myself with good results.

1. Blood: CBC, iron, ferritin, transferrin, iron saturation, copper, ceruloplasmin
2. Metabolism: Complete metabolic panel, CO2, LDH, CK, insulin, IGF-1, NEFA
3. Liver - AST, ALP, ALT, GGT, PT, PTT, albumin, billirubin, total protein, fibrin
4. Prolactin, serotonin
5. Steroids: pregnenolone, DHEA, progesterone, testosterone, DHT, estradiol, estrone, estriol, cortisol
6. TSH, T4, T3, rT3
7. Inflammation: ESR, CRP
8. PUFA status: blood iodine, Mead acid

Just my 2c, as usual. Thoughts?
 
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QvVIyC3.png
4121695-0832987232-livin.jpg
 

EIRE24

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haidut said:
To me the main argument in favor of Peat is that PUFA directly inhibits cytochrome C oxidase, directly promotes estrogen synthesis, activates TPH and thus activates serotonin synthesis, and lower core body temperature.
Anybody care to show me a study (even one) where they found that any of these above mentioned points are beneficial?
Low oxygen consumption, high estrogen, high serotonin, low core temperature are NOT biomarkers of a healthy mammal.
There is NO question that Ray is right. The only question is what diet would best fit an individual person, and what supplements/drugs (if any) one should take, and how does one measure progress.

If somebody still doubts Ray's points I challenge you to simply go through my posts from the beginning of my membership and simply skim through them. I have posted studies from all over the world, from people not even remotely related to Peat's work, mostly confirming his views, often DECADES after the man expressed them! Also, keep in mind that I simply posted them as things came through the news naturally. So, it's not like I went searching for those things for a few weeks and amassed a pro-Peat collection from the news archives.

I think it is high time for the main section of the forum to move on to more practical questions such as the effects of specific diet (always low in PUFA) on specific biomakers of health for specific individuals. The main goal of the forum should be (IMHO) to help people solve their specific problem, and not so much debate whether Ray has a point or not. The debate probably still has some merits but it is better served by being moved to the "Alternatives" to Peat section. The man is right, get over it! The much BIGGER point here is HOW to take his generally correct ideas and turn them into actionable steps that work for everybody. Another big question would be why some people seem to not be improving on Peat diet. So, things that will have to be addressed are potential chronic infections, nutritional deficiencies, inflammation, etc.
I don't have a solid solution to this issue yet, but I think we can benefit from creating a database of sorts similar to the graphic from the website FPS where they have two sections - "Efficient Metabolism", and "Non-Efficient Metabolism". Then they have a decent list of both foods and supplements that promote or inhibit the proper metabolism. We have collectively posted enough studies on this forum to build a sizeable repository of helpful interventions. Incidentally, this will have the added benefit that once you stat seeing the interplay of nutrients, metabolism, health, and specific conditions you will quickly see and understand for yourself not only that Ray is right about 99% of his stuff, but why he is right. When you see the antagonism between things like niacinamide and resveratrol you will understand that only one of the two can be beneficial for the organism as a supplement. Combining this knowledge with the failed clinical trials of resveratrol and the success of niacinamide in a number of conditions, you will have no choice but to agree with Peat, at least in principle. And when you see how estrogenic resveratrol is, you will agree with Peat on his ideas about estrogen as well. And when you see how estrogen promotes cortisol, serotonin, and prolactin and the havoc that they wreak then you will have to agree with Peat on those issues too. Anyways, you get my point.
I think there will also be a great interest in creating a section for specific conditions that people struggle with and what supplements/drugs may be helpful. This will probably create a huge influx of visitors to the site, but will also draw attention from FDA. So, it has to be handled very very carefully as to not suggest treatments or diagnosis. Simply a list of studies on supplements/drugs, condition, effectiveness, dosage, duration, etc.
Finally, I think we should create a tentative list of blood tests that would be helpful the Peatarian state of an individual and use those blood tests at least informatively to measure/gauge progress. Here is a tentative list I have been using for myself with good results.

1. Blood: CBC, iron, ferritin, transferrin, iron saturation, copper, ceruloplasmin
2. Metabolism: Complete metabolic panel, CO2, LDH, CK, insulin, IGF-1, NEFA
3. Liver - AST, ALP, ALT, GGT, PT, PTT, albumin, billirubin, total protein, fibrin
4. Prolactin, serotonin
5. Steroids: pregnenolone, DHEA, progesterone, testosterone, DHT, estradiol, estrone, estriol, cortisol
6. TSH, T4, T3, rT3
7. Inflammation: ESR, CRP
8. PUFA status: blood iodine, Mead acid

Just my 2c, as usual. Thoughts?

Yes Haidut, this is an awesome idea. Exactly what people need.
 

gretchen

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Messages
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Actually, it does still itch, just not as bad. I take b vitamins; there's no reason (other than an efa deficiency) for it.

haidut said:
I think it is high time for the main section of the forum to move on to more practical questions such as the effects of specific diet (always low in PUFA) on specific biomakers of health for specific individuals.

Good to know this is one of the topics that can no longer be discussed. ;)

......you will have no choicebut to agree with Peat [about various things]

I agree with the ideas that have worked for me: progesterone, red light, aspirin, b vitamins, selenium, DHEA, vitamin A, coconut oil, coffee, salt, saturated fats, cholesterol, thyroid hormone, phosphate/calcium ratio, cascara sagrada, and the carrot salad. I agree very much with Peat about colleges and academia. I think he has interesting ideas about mental health. Based on my own experience, I'm not sure eating a diet free of omega-3 dha is the best idea for me. So no, I'm not sure I agree with him about that anymore.
 

Regina

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To me the main argument in favor of Peat is that PUFA directly inhibits cytochrome C oxidase, directly promotes estrogen synthesis, activates TPH and thus activates serotonin synthesis, and lower core body temperature.
Anybody care to show me a study (even one) where they found that any of these above mentioned points are beneficial?
Low oxygen consumption, high estrogen, high serotonin, low core temperature are NOT biomarkers of a healthy mammal.
There is NO question that Ray is right. The only question is what diet would best fit an individual person, and what supplements/drugs (if any) one should take, and how does one measure progress.

If somebody still doubts Ray's points I challenge you to simply go through my posts from the beginning of my membership and simply skim through them. I have posted studies from all over the world, from people not even remotely related to Peat's work, mostly confirming his views, often DECADES after the man expressed them! Also, keep in mind that I simply posted them as things came through the news naturally. So, it's not like I went searching for those things for a few weeks and amassed a pro-Peat collection from the news archives.

I think it is high time for the main section of the forum to move on to more practical questions such as the effects of specific diet (always low in PUFA) on specific biomakers of health for specific individuals. The main goal of the forum should be (IMHO) to help people solve their specific problem, and not so much debate whether Ray has a point or not. The debate probably still has some merits but it is better served by being moved to the "Alternatives" to Peat section. The man is right, get over it! The much BIGGER point here is HOW to take his generally correct ideas and turn them into actionable steps that work for everybody. Another big question would be why some people seem to not be improving on Peat diet. So, things that will have to be addressed are potential chronic infections, nutritional deficiencies, inflammation, etc.
I don't have a solid solution to this issue yet, but I think we can benefit from creating a database of sorts similar to the graphic from the website FPS where they have two sections - "Efficient Metabolism", and "Non-Efficient Metabolism". Then they have a decent list of both foods and supplements that promote or inhibit the proper metabolism. We have collectively posted enough studies on this forum to build a sizeable repository of helpful interventions. Incidentally, this will have the added benefit that once you stat seeing the interplay of nutrients, metabolism, health, and specific conditions you will quickly see and understand for yourself not only that Ray is right about 99% of his stuff, but why he is right. When you see the antagonism between things like niacinamide and resveratrol you will understand that only one of the two can be beneficial for the organism as a supplement. Combining this knowledge with the failed clinical trials of resveratrol and the success of niacinamide in a number of conditions, you will have no choice but to agree with Peat, at least in principle. And when you see how estrogenic resveratrol is, you will agree with Peat on his ideas about estrogen as well. And when you see how estrogen promotes cortisol, serotonin, and prolactin and the havoc that they wreak then you will have to agree with Peat on those issues too. Anyways, you get my point.
I think there will also be a great interest in creating a section for specific conditions that people struggle with and what supplements/drugs may be helpful. This will probably create a huge influx of visitors to the site, but will also draw attention from FDA. So, it has to be handled very very carefully as to not suggest treatments or diagnosis. Simply a list of studies on supplements/drugs, condition, effectiveness, dosage, duration, etc.
Finally, I think we should create a tentative list of blood tests that would be helpful the Peatarian state of an individual and use those blood tests at least informatively to measure/gauge progress. Here is a tentative list I have been using for myself with good results.

1. Blood: CBC, iron, ferritin, transferrin, iron saturation, copper, ceruloplasmin
2. Metabolism: Complete metabolic panel, CO2, LDH, CK, insulin, IGF-1, NEFA
3. Liver - AST, ALP, ALT, GGT, PT, PTT, albumin, billirubin, total protein, fibrin
4. Prolactin, serotonin
5. Steroids: pregnenolone, DHEA, progesterone, testosterone, DHT, estradiol, estrone, estriol, cortisol
6. TSH, T4, T3, rT3
7. Inflammation: ESR, CRP
8. PUFA status: blood iodine, Mead acid

Just my 2c, as usual. Thoughts?
Yes!
 

stargazer1111

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I can't go much below 10 grams PUFA per day before I get such severe dry skin on my knuckles that they crack and bleed. I take 1500mg of vitamin b6 every day because I am autistic. So, I know for sure that it is not a b6 deficiency.

When I try to do low-fat or skim milk and replace the fat with coconut oil this happens. It only goes away if I switch the coconut oil back out for whole milk. I get about 2 percent of my calories as PUFA incidentally in the whole milk which seems to work for me.
 

Milena

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Do you make 'bone' broth for gelatine? I found that helps my skin when doing low fat. Not a suggestion, just acquiring info.
 

stargazer1111

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Messages
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Do you make 'bone' broth for gelatine? I found that helps my skin when doing low fat. Not a suggestion, just acquiring info.

I can't tolerate gelatin. No matter where it comes from, I get bad bloating and diarrhea from it. I keep trying it every once in a while to see if I can tolerate it, and it hasn't worked yet unfortunately.
 

GelatinGoblin

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Cod Liver Oil: Our Most important Superfood
(Weston Price Foundation)

Cod Liver Oil
Once a standard supplement in traditional European societies, cod liver oil provides fat-soluble vitamins A and D, which Dr. Price found present in the diet of “primitives” in amounts ten times higher than the typical American diet of his day. Cod liver oil supplements are a must for women and their male partners, to be taken for several months before conception, and for women during pregnancy. Growing children will also benefit greatly from a small daily dose.
Dr. Price always gave cod liver oil with butter oil, extracted by centrifuge from good quality spring or fall butter. He found that cod liver oil on its own was relatively ineffective but combined with butter oil produced excellent results. Your diet should include both good quality, organic butter and cod liver oil.


Home - The Weston A. Price Foundation

If cod liver oil is so great, why add butter? Perhaps to counterbalance the rancidty?

The claim that it was once a standard supplement in traditional European societies seems a bit dodgy. Can the Weston Price writers give citations that this was the case or are they steeped in fairy tales??

The Vitamin A and Vitamin D together. It is an extremely good food.
Any issues regarding both Vitamins may be because of an insufficience for one of them while the other is too high, other way the ratio is important. I have a theory that the reason Ray noticed/treated Hypothyroidism with Liver sometimes being the culprit is because of the Vitamin A to D imbalance it caused, this is the reason it's so good.
Beef Liver and lots of sunlight is better though.
And perhaps A and D don't compete AS much as other fat solubles.
 

rei

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Thanks for reviving this thread. It made me remember that we should crowdfund haidut so he can finally make a study about the truth of the existence of EFA:s. To me it seems obvious EFA:s do not exist since if they did such a study had been published by now.

It is truly absurd that we must year after year continue debate according to assumptions.
 

milkboi

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Thanks for reviving this thread. It made me remember that we should crowdfund haidut so he can finally make a study about the truth of the existence of EFA:s. To me it seems obvious EFA:s do not exist since if they did such a study had been published by now.

It is truly absurd that we must year after year continue debate according to assumptions.

Yeah, that would really be the most important study to do for him. I’d donate for sure.
 

GelatinGoblin

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Sadly I can't make his post my sig :(
Really explains a few aspects of this forum and the RP community and philosophy in-general as well as point out the research yet to be done.
If I remember correctly and my understanding is correct, this diet is the most sophisticated there is out there. Aside from the sophistocation of a traditional diet which had many years to develop, this is the most thought-out "man-made" modern dietary philosophy (also general habits beyond diet, even ideological to an extent! Thinking of this is just wow! Ray developed this philosophy [school of thought? :eek:] for so much time!). Although of course he borrows from historical or traditional dietary information, habits and statistics (consumption of Coconut Oil in Sri Lanka and health for example).
In a few more years this will develop into simply the perfect diet for true universal health, but of course could be developed forever due to the infinite complexity of the human body.
Many things are left such as convince govermant organisations of his teaching, which may never happen to due immorality and misinformation, clearly morality in general has changed to a great degree and will continue to do so until the Western world is corrupt after generations of non-traditional and immoral teaching. This task may simply be impossible sadly, and his goal for universal health and well-being may never happen. Perhaps evidence for large government bodies should be another one of his works.


All of the above may be a bit idealistic and unrefined, I have only thought of the extent of his work until now.
 

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