Lutein-free Diet To Cure Autism

Richiebogie

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Hi @somuch4food,

There are some studies on autism related to low thiamin (vitamin b1).

Have you tried boosting thiamin?

Orange Juice is a good source of thiamin, but that has some carotenoids too!

Yeast extract (eg vegemite) has some natural thiamin and some supplemental thiamin too!

Bananas and berries have a little.
 
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somuch4food

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Hi @somuch4food,

There are some studies on autism related to low thiamin (vitamin b1).

Have you tried boosting thiamin?

Orange Juice is a good source of thiamin, but that has some carotenoids too!

Yeast extract (eg vegemite) has some natural thiamin and some supplemental thiamin too!

Bananas and berries have a little.

Funny you would mention thiamin now. That's my current angle. I am looking at ways to increase thiamin.

If I see vegemite at the grocery store, I will probably try it.

Atm, I take a B complex and try to minimize plain sugar.

I have found oats to be wonderful for me (high in thiamine). I also try to eat more pork, even though it's not really liked on the forum, it has a lot more thiamine than other meats.

Commercial orange juice makes me feel awful though. It could be the processing or simply the liquid. I seem to do worse when I have too much liquid calories.

Lutein doesn't seem to bother me as much as I initially thought, but my intake is generally low and I have found many colorful fruits and veggies to be bothersome and it could be due to carotenoids, oxalates or fibers.

High oxalates is also linked to autism.
 

Blossom

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High oxalates is also linked to autism.
That’s just crazy. I originally posted an article but just removed it because when I read further it was pushing the carnivore diet.
 

Richiebogie

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Hi @somuch4food,

If you can't get vegemite then nutritional yeast may have similar nutrients even though it looks very different!

Apparently alcohol, tea, coffee (probably chocolate too) and raw fish destroy thiamin, so you may want to minimise those!

Then also avoiding gluten, dairy, carotenoids and oxalates does tend to point towards a more meat and fat based diet as @Blossom discovered!

It's good if oats work for you. Maybe phytates aren't an issue.

Has Ray Peat mentioned thiamin? It seems essential for burning glucose and running the nervous system but his beloved coffee may kill the little thiamin a Peatarian gets on a fruit and dairy diet!
 

Blossom

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Apparently alcohol, tea, coffee (probably chocolate too) and raw fish destroy thiamin, so you may want to minimise those!

Then also avoiding gluten, dairy, carotenoids and oxalates does tend to point towards a more meat and fat based diet as @Blossom discovered!
It’s truly heartbreaking for those people!
 

BigChad

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If you've looked at the carotenoids, you'll notice that all of them are highly unsaturated, with around 10 or so double bonds, twice as many as retinol. They seems to have effects like PUFAs as well, as yellow butter is much softer and spreadable at cool temps than butter that is whiter in color.

While at least some of the carotenoids can be converted to retinol, the carotenoids also act as "retinol receptor antagonists." Since everyone experimenting with the low A diet is also eating low caroteniods (in general), this seems to be a massive potential confounder.

Would getting plenty of vitamin E negate the negative effects of 300mcg lycopene, 30mg green tea extract and 1.5mg lutein per day? Also is there an issue with supplemental lutein or all lutein even the one found in eggs?
 
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somuch4food

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Would getting plenty of vitamin E negate the negative effects of 300mcg lycopene, 30mg green tea extract and 1.5mg lutein per day? Also is there an issue with supplemental lutein or all lutein even the one found in eggs?

It's been discussed in other threads, but carotenoids are highly unsaturated like PUFAs and so potentially as unstable within the high temperature of the body. I would avoid supplemental carotenoids. Mitigating such unnatural doses with another supplement might not be the best, but could work a bit.

Lutein can be problematic on its own as well, just search for it on the forum. It's really something you have to figure out for yourself. Everybody can have different weak points. Some can do more milk than others, the same goes with carotenoids in my opinion.

Personally, I would cut on lutein from vegetables and supplements before I worry about what is found in eggs since eggs provide much more.
 

Dave Clark

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Can someone explain to me how a pigment that is not a fat can be unsaturated? I was never under the impression that carotenoids had any fat in them, and i have a limited science backround, but I thought only fats could be saturated or unsaturated.
 

BigChad

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Can someone explain to me how a pigment that is not a fat can be unsaturated? I was never under the impression that carotenoids had any fat in them, and i have a limited science backround, but I thought only fats could be saturated or unsaturated.

Ray mentioned that the carotenes act similar to PUFA. Ive heard that carotenoids and tocotrienols from vitamin e are also unsaturated. So it looks like vitamin a and possibly e have unsaturated elements to them and ive seen quotes of ray stating that vitamin a itself is unsaturated, even the retinyl palmitate/preformed forms im assuming...
 
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BigChad

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It's been discussed in other threads, but carotenoids are highly unsaturated like PUFAs and so potentially as unstable within the high temperature of the body. I would avoid supplemental carotenoids. Mitigating such unnatural doses with another supplement might not be the best, but could work a bit.

Lutein can be problematic on its own as well, just search for it on the forum. It's really something you have to figure out for yourself. Everybody can have different weak points. Some can do more milk than others, the same goes with carotenoids in my opinion.

Personally, I would cut on lutein from vegetables and supplements before I worry about what is found in eggs since eggs provide much more.

I found this on consumerlabs, great info imo.

"High doses of calcium or other minerals (including magnesium, certain forms of iron, and zinc) from supplements may decrease the absorption of carotenoids, such as beta carotene, lycopeneand astaxanthin, from foods and/or supplements. It is best to take carotenoid supplements at a different time of day than a supplement or meal containing large amounts of a mineral (e.g., hundreds of milligrams of calcium or magnesium)."

So basically if you want to eat tomato or spinach or other foods with lycopene/carotenoids/carotenes for some reason it would be better to consume them with meat or dairy. Also some of these veggies have high amounts of magnesium, iron or calcium, maybe the presence of those minerals would have a limiting effect on how much of the carotenoids you actually absorb from the food? While if you take a multivitamin or supplement with carotenoids, that doesnt contain much iron or magnesium, you'd absorb a lot more of the carotene or carotenoid.

So if you have something like bacon and eggs, or some other dairy or meat with the eggs that may help reduce the lutein absorption. Or even a magnesium supplement, taken in the morning instead of at night. Btw a lot of multivitamins add lutein to them nowadays because it's cheap and supposedly helps eye health. I haven't looked into how it works.
 
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Collden

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Can someone explain to me how a pigment that is not a fat can be unsaturated? I was never under the impression that carotenoids had any fat in them, and i have a limited science backround, but I thought only fats could be saturated or unsaturated.
Maybe be wrong, but I think it just refers to the number of double bonds in the molecule, since any molecule with sterically exposed double bonds can be attacked by free radicals and so cause damage. Most food pigments seem to contain a great number of double bonds so they would be more unsaturated than even the worst PUFAs.

I wonder, has anyone researching this diet come up with some ballpark value for how much lutein is a problem and how much can normally be tolerated? It seems every food on the planet that is not completely white will contain some lutein or lutein-like molecules, so its not practically possible to avoid it entirely.

For reference, Grant Genereux said he developed issues by taking a Lutein supplement, but if what he took was a standard supplement those things usually contain at least 20 milligrams of lutein per capsule.
 

BigChad

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Maybe be wrong, but I think it just refers to the number of double bonds in the molecule, since any molecule with sterically exposed double bonds can be attacked by free radicals and so cause damage. Most food pigments seem to contain a great number of double bonds so they would be more unsaturated than even the worst PUFAs.

I wonder, has anyone researching this diet come up with some ballpark value for how much lutein is a problem and how much can normally be tolerated? It seems every food on the planet that is not completely white will contain some lutein or lutein-like molecules, so its not practically possible to avoid it entirely.

For reference, Grant Genereux said he developed issues by taking a Lutein supplement, but if what he took was a standard supplement those things usually contain at least 20 milligrams of lutein per capsule.

yes im curious about 1mg lutein twice a week or 300mcg 4x a week. lycopene is another, that is actually a 5ar inhibitor right.
 

baccheion

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Serum 25(OH)D to the top of the range. 100 ng/mL. There was some autism study that used 300 IU/kg. 10 IU D3 : 2 mcg+ MK-4. Or just 100 mcg MK-7. And magnesium.
 

tigerlily96

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@CLASH Thank you for your reply. You have some interesting theories.

But, I must say that carotenoids (and other plant pigments) can also affect us in different manners after all they are ingested.

I don't doubt that many factors you mention probably contribute to the excessive sensibilities to those pigments.

The flax and chia seeds are pure evil and not fit for human consumption. The lutein, phytoestrogens, soluble fibers and bad PUFA profile all contributed to the reaction I got probably. My hands really dried out when I used flax seeds frequently.

I must say though that there is something that I react to in carotenoids. I don't think it's all of them, but I see changes in mood and behavior in me and my toddler depending on the profile of the fruit.

I would like to ask what you think would trigger eczema in carrots if not for carotenoids?
Salicylates?
 
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somuch4food

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Salicylates?

I've pondered on this as well, but it doesn't add up. Blueberries, cranberries, etc are fine. Raspberries and blackberries I have to be careful about.

I'm also wondering about oxalates, but I've stopped cramming everything on one theory and try different ideas and see what works.

I think what made him worst was high fruits/vegetables low calories. He didn't have enough energy to heal. Since then, he's eating more cookies and baked goods with some fruits and vegetables. I have also upped animal products intake.
 
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somuch4food

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Lutein doesn't seem to bother me as much as I initially thought, but my intake is generally low and I have found many colorful fruits and veggies to be bothersome and it could be due to carotenoids, oxalates or fibers.

Lutein does seem to bother. I tried raising K1 with greens and the carrot salad for gut at 2 different times and both were making me feel off, more depressed.

High doses of calcium or other minerals (including magnesium, certain forms of iron, and zinc) from supplements may decrease the absorption of carotenoids, such as beta carotene, lycopeneand astaxanthin, from foods and/or supplements. It is best to take carotenoid supplements at a different time of day than a supplement or meal containing large amounts of a mineral (e.g., hundreds of milligrams of calcium or magnesium)."

So basically if you want to eat tomato or spinach or other foods with lycopene/carotenoids/carotenes for some reason it would be better to consume them with meat or dairy.

I think that's spot on. I had to remove dairy from my diet to see if it helped with my newborn and my tolerance for lutein seems to have dipped.

I also think high dairy is what made me think lutein might not be a problem after all.

Btw a lot of multivitamins add lutein to them nowadays because it's cheap and supposedly helps eye health. I haven't looked into how it works

Unfortunately, they do. I didn't read carefully when I bought a multi. It had 1mg of lutein. After taking it for 2 days, I was finding myself depressed/not lively at all, hence my renewed interest in thia thread.

Serum 25(OH)D to the top of the range. 100 ng/mL. There was some autism study that used 300 IU/kg. 10 IU D3 : 2 mcg+ MK-4. Or just 100 mcg MK-7. And magnesium.

I think there is a link here and I am finally open to D3 supplementation. I think there is some validity here. My toddler was great this summer and he gained so much skills when he was outside everyday (I don't put sunscreen unless at the beach with no shades). Now as the winter sets in, his chronic infections, problematic behaviors and overall energy are all worse. I've also found a link between D3, allergies and gut issues. I certainly was low when pregnant with him. I have a desk job and he was born in late june, so no high sun exposure during pregnancy and very low supplementation from the prenatal.

I will be touching this with his pediatrician to see if he could get tested or if I need to go at it blind. He does complain of hernia pain from time to time, it could be an indicator.

But I must say it will be difficult to bite my tongue while I watch my grown daughter (with probably the same EDS gene mutation) gorge herself on high oxylate foods convinced her 95% plant based diet is healthy, and her personal choices just happen to be some of the highest of all oxalates. :-(

I would try to push her into intuitive eating before talking health theories. The new generation is disconnected from their bodies. We believe the propaganda we read in media instead of our own reactions. Untangling this mess is proving difficult, I keep coming back to my old patterns, but at least I recognize when this happens now.

That said I understand the feeling. I also keep my mouth shut since most people aren't interested anyway which is a downer.
 
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somuch4food

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Lutein does seem to bother. I tried raising K1 with greens and the carrot salad for gut at 2 different times and both were making me feel off, more depressed.

LOL, I had completely forgotten I had written this. I ended up doing the same thing again :banghead: Make that 3! I need to buy some K2 though to try.

I think that's spot on. I had to remove dairy from my diet to see if it helped with my newborn and my tolerance for lutein seems to have dipped.

I also think high dairy is what made me think lutein might not be a problem after all.

I recently reduced dairy again and find I'm reacting to everything again...

I should learn my lesson... and stop trying to incorporate more variety from fruits and veggies.
 

Ponylover

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Hi @somuchforfood, thanks for this post. Have any updates? What's your current diet like and how are you faring?
 

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