SIBO, Gut Motility, Constipation. What Is Really Going On? I Will Tell You

[Mauritio]

B vitamins always seem to burden my liver, both as felt and confirmed by labs.
They make my eyes yellow, puffy, make me restless.

I don’t know, there is something with vitamin supplements that doesn’t work with me, almost as if it was a toxic substance when not bound to food.

Maybe it's just the vitamin b 2 ? It's often allergenic...

 

[Scenes]

Maybe it's just the vitamin b 2 ? It's often allergenic...

@TheBeard
B2 is highly allergenic, and needs to be taken in low doses of 20mg for a few days then down to 2-3mg from then. Ray told me that in an email. I used to get the puffy eyes and sometimes mildly itchy skin while using.

@charlie @Amazoniac
Why is B1 giving me such incredible bowel movements?? I’m a regular 3 full solids a day from a standard 1 a day in the morning. I’m eating the same amount of food - where is it all coming from!?

I’m also on t3 but was using that for a month or so before B1, so the difference is clear.

 

[Kartoffel]

You must be familiar with these:

- Long-term treatment with nicotinamide induces glucose intolerance and skeletal muscle lipotoxicity in normal chow-fed mice: compared to diet-induced obesity

Fastin'.
- Nicotinamide improves glucose metabolism and affects the hepatic NAD-sirtuin pathway in a rodent model of obesity and type 2 diabetes

Yes, I had seen them before. I think the first study, from which the scary serum FFA graph comes, is an unfair evaluation of niacinamide's impact. Blood analysis and glucose tolerance test were done three days after niacinamide "withdrawal", and after 16 hours of fasting. After such a rapid change of circumstances, a stressful short-term adaptation with increased FFA seems logical, because the rats had to readjust to burning and clearing fatty acids instead of glucose. I think the tests would have looked differently, had they been done when the rats still got niacinamide, and I don't think that these adverse profiles would have endured after niacinamide withdrawal. Unfortunately, we and the rats never got to know.

 

[Amazoniac]

Yes, I had seen them before. I think the first study, from which the scary serum FFA graph comes, is an unfair evaluation of niacinamide's impact. Blood analysis and glucose tolerance test were done three days after niacinamide "withdrawal", and after 16 hours of fasting. After such a rapid change of circumstances, a stressful short-term adaptation with increased FFA seems logical, because the rats had to readjust to burning and clearing fatty acids instead of glucose. I think the tests would have looked differently, had they been done when the rats still got niacinamide, and I don't think that these adverse profiles would have endured after niacinamide withdrawal. Unfortunately, we and the rats never got to know.

I think it was a single daily injection, which isn't enough to sustain the effect for more than some hours, most of the day they had the chance to burn them. Speaking of unfairness, why it doesn't bother you when nicotinic acid is given to fasted animals?

 

[Kartoffel]

I think it was a single daily injection, which isn't enough to sustain the effect for more than some hours, most of the day they had the chance to burn them. Speaking of unfairness, why it doesn't bother you when nicotinic acid is given to fasted animals?

The very immediate effect might only last for a few hours, but if niacinamide did not nothing in the long term, that would be surprising. I didn't object to anything being given to fasted animals, I said the test was badly designed because the test happened three days after niacinamide was stopped. You can see in Fig 2 that fatty acid oxidation was significantly lower in NA animals, which would support my theory that the animals had to readapt to burning more fatty acids instead of sugar .

"Three days after the last drug injection, the mice were deprived of food for 16 h and then subjected to glucose tolerance tests (GTT) and insulin tolerance tests (ITT). GTTwere performed as previously described[36]. Mice were injected intraperitoneally with glucose (1 g/kg), and blood was collected by tail bleed at 0, 15, 30, 45, 60, 90 and120 min for plasma glucose measurements. For ITT, mice were injected intraperitoneally with insulin (0.75 U/kg), and blood was collected for plasma glucose measurements."​

 

[Amazoniac]

The very immediate effect might only last for a few hours, but if niacinamide did not nothing in the long term, that would be surprising. I didn't object to anything being given to fasted animals, I said the test was badly designed because the test happened three days after niacinamide was stopped. You can see in Fig 2 that fatty acid oxidation was significantly lower in NA animals, which would support my theory that the animals had to readapt to burning more fatty acids instead of sugar .

"Three days after the last drug injection, the mice were deprived of food for 16 h and then subjected to glucose tolerance tests (GTT) and insulin tolerance tests (ITT). GTTwere performed as previously described[36]. Mice were injected intraperitoneally with glucose (1 g/kg), and blood was collected by tail bleed at 0, 15, 30, 45, 60, 90 and120 min for plasma glucose measurements. For ITT, mice were injected intraperitoneally with insulin (0.75 U/kg), and blood was collected for plasma glucose measurements."​

View attachment 14258

If you go back to my message, I was commenting how greater doses are problematic and therefore I'm not as interested in them. The figure that you (as predicted) uploaded shows that it compromised the ability of muscle to oxidize fat all while elevating fatty acids in blood and messing up other markers as well, it's difficult to paint it in good light since it indicates that the regimen improved some aspects and compromised others. And this was on a regular diet, not the high-fat. The elevation above normal is something that should not occur with proper doses throughout the day that don't end up being stressful.

The unfair part has nothing to do about these questionable practices, but on how you're willing to investigate what's up when something goes wrong with nicotinamide, but not objecting when nicotinic acid is given on empty stomach that could easily lead to a stress response.


For some context, Franklin's justification not to use nicotinic acid was never that it induced an insane rebound of fatty acids, it has always been that it increases serotonin/histamine and is inflammatory due to prostaglandins, all being detectable in blood. Nicotinamide can also increase those two metabolites, and if the nicotinic acid doesn't lead to flushing, prostaglandins are not an issue without even getting into details about what exactly they're doing.

Therefore the broscientist here never found it convincing enough, especially being aware of that german guru's position.

Some time ago I came across such effect, but thought it wased unspecific. Most of the experiments available make it difficult to judge because it's usually administered to fasted animals, often at the times through injection, bypassing its desired metabolism in liver. It was also odserveb that stress hormones could be involved in the reaction, which reinforced the assumption. Similar for example to giving caffeine after fasting.


The second familiar link seemed more convincing in favor of nicotinamide, but the lower doses used were still slightly above the range that we have in mind here.

This is one is interesting, graded doses were used:
- The biphasic effect of nicotinic acid on plasma FFA levels (!)
Corsitoxmsotlesorone increasing without fatty acids dropping in circulation. Unfortunately, (as usual) inject'd in fasted animals.

 

[jmojo]

Alex Leaf (Examine) brings up that liver toxicity is a potential with niacin: "The risk of liver toxicity is greatest with nicotinamide because methylation is the only way it can be metabolized... Liver toxicity can be avoided by simply eating a diet rich in methyl donors, such as folate, vitamin B12, methionine, betaine (trimethylglycine), and choline."

"The risk of diabetes comes into play when people eat a bunch of carbohydrates during the FFA rebound period, since elevated FFAs cause a state of insulin resistance and glucose intolerance.

Accordingly, the risk of diabetes can be mitigated by simply being more aware of what and when you eat relative to taking niacin. At least one study in rats supports this hypothesis.20

The researchers observed metabolic improvements when food was eaten during the FFA suppression window, but not when food was eaten during the rebound period.

If you are going to eat, do so in the 2-hour window after taking niacin. If you are going to eat 3–6 hours after taking niacin, either take another dose of niacin first, or avoid eating a large amount of digestible carbohydrate."

Niacin, heart disease, liver toxicity, and diabetes - Alex Leaf, MS, CISSN

What do you guys think?

 

[lisamarie1010]

I'm definitely gonna be using energin basically every day now...

hey..haha still reading and reading. What is energin? is it for adrenals/energy? --EDIT: If course, I found it in Haidut's store. :) So much good, so much to read, learn, figure out
Thank you again, all.

 

[mbachiu]

@charlie I've been reading these threads & I have been supplementing with some B vitamins. B1, B2, & B3. I’m going to try the Benfo version of B1c because I’ve just been using thiamine HCl. I know you said that one B vitamin deficiency likely means others are also deficient. I’m going to attempt to supplement with a B complex that includes B5, but also possibly a sublingual B12? I’ve been experiencing some neuropathy, extreme fatigue, & just general feelings of illness. I did get my blood sugar checked & it was okay that day. I did get more bloodwork, so I will see when that comes back if anything was uncovered. Basically just looking for some validation or feedback that these are next logical steps? Also, when I do get the Benfo, what dosage should I start with? I’ve been using lots of thiamine, but I also know you said that this form should be eased into. I think the pills are in 80mgs. Thanks for any ideas!

 

[charlie]

@charlie I've been reading these threads & I have been supplementing with some B vitamins. B1, B2, & B3. I’m going to try the Benfo version of B1c because I’ve just been using thiamine HCl. I know you said that one B vitamin deficiency likely means others are also deficient. I’m going to attempt to supplement with a B complex that includes B5, but also possibly a sublingual B12? I’ve been experiencing some neuropathy, extreme fatigue, & just general feelings of illness. I did get my blood sugar checked & it was okay that day. I did get more bloodwork, so I will see when that comes back if anything was uncovered. Basically just looking for some validation or feedback that these are next logical steps? Also, when I do get the Benfo, what dosage should I start with? I’ve been using lots of thiamine, but I also know you said that this form should be eased into. I think the pills are in 80mgs. Thanks for any ideas!

I think Benfotiamine and Allithiamine are pretty incredible, although I seem to do better with Allithiamine. For some reason Benfotiamine pushes too hard for me at times, thats the only way I can explain it. Maybe its the source, I am working on a better one. Someone wrote me recently and told me they did 300mgs of Benfotiamine and said they haven't felt that good in a long time. Personally, I cannot do more than 50mgs of Benfo and need to make sure to have plenty of magnesium(magnesium bicarbonate). I did not do well with a B complex but seem to do better with powders, Amazoniac et el right again. B12 is a touchy subject round here but I been taking a squirt of the Methyl a couple times a day. I got B1 HCl on the way in shot form, gonna give that a run. Also found a B complex shot form, gonna give that a run too. Not looking forward to the stick but for the sake of science ya know.

 

[mbachiu]

I think Benfotiamine and Allithiamine are pretty incredible, although I seem to do better with Allithiamine. For some reason Benfotiamine pushes too hard for me at times, thats the only way I can explain it. Maybe its the source, I am working on a better one. Someone wrote me recently and told me they did 300mgs of Benfotiamine and said they haven't felt that good in a long time. Personally, I cannot do more than 50mgs of Benfo and need to make sure to have plenty of magnesium(magnesium bicarbonate). I did not do well with a B complex but seem to do better with powders, Amazoniac et el right again. B12 is a touchy subject round here but I been taking a squirt of the Methyl a couple times a day. I got B1 HCl on the way in shot form, gonna give that a run. Also found a B complex shot form, gonna give that a run too. Not looking forward to the stick but for the sake of science ya know.

Okay, thanks for the info. I do take magnesium bicarbonate with my B1, so I’m hoping that’s helping. I was pretty convinced I was diabetic & with @Blossom’s wisdom & guidance I got the test done. Now that I don’t seem to be diabetic, I am trying to figure out reasons for the fatigue & neuropathy. I understand it could be a whole multitude of things.

If supplementing with B12 isn’t always a great option, but I am eating the foods highest in B12, is there another option?

I also totally understand that trying to figure out dosages of individual Bs is likely better. I am trying to do that, & if the B complex doesn’t seem to help, I am totally willing to explore that option!

Thanks for the info @charlie. Much appreciated

 

[mbachiu]

I think Benfotiamine and Allithiamine are pretty incredible, although I seem to do better with Allithiamine. For some reason Benfotiamine pushes too hard for me at times, thats the only way I can explain it. Maybe its the source, I am working on a better one. Someone wrote me recently and told me they did 300mgs of Benfotiamine and said they haven't felt that good in a long time. Personally, I cannot do more than 50mgs of Benfo and need to make sure to have plenty of magnesium(magnesium bicarbonate). I did not do well with a B complex but seem to do better with powders, Amazoniac et el right again. B12 is a touchy subject round here but I been taking a squirt of the Methyl a couple times a day. I got B1 HCl on the way in shot form, gonna give that a run. Also found a B complex shot form, gonna give that a run too. Not looking forward to the stick but for the sake of science ya know.

PS. I hate needles. I don’t know if I could do that to myself. Sake of science or not lol

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

Gonna chime in. Here's a video with a naturopath/health guru I follow, on youtube. He's a big proponent of the keto/carnivore diet. He's also big on b1. Here he describes how he essentially cured chronic digestive issues in 4 people by supplementing high dose B1 even though they were eating liver regularly prior to the intervention:


I've been struggling with digestive issues (IBS, sibo, bloating, constipation, fatigue) which I think are the culprit behind my depression and occasional anxiety also. I've tried many thing, including T3 which didn't do much even in higher doses. Antibiotics helped, but didn't solve it. Niacinamide alone helped a bit. Started B1 Hcl 3x100mg along with energin and some niacinamide 2 days ago. Already seen improvements in energy, bloating subsided substantially. Bowel motions improved too. Too soon to tell weather it's placebo, but fingers crossed.

 

[Vins7]

[QUOTE = "thirdcatgy, post: 450626, member: 3400"] Las adherencias en la región pélvica son una causa subestimada de la OMI. Sentarse, apuntalar, operar, etc. causa problemas intramusculares dentro del tejido que deben ser desenrollados. [/ CITA]

Adhesions in the pelvic region are an underrated cause IMO. Sitting, bracing, surgery, etc. causes intramuscular issues within the tissue that must be unwound.

Adhesions are necessary painful or that could be asymptomatic?

 

[berk]

Started B1 Hcl 3x100mg along with energin and some niacinamide 2 days ago. Already seen improvements in energy, bloating subsided substantially. Bowel motions improved too. Too soon to tell weather it's placebo, but fingers crossed.

we are now a month later: how you doing now?

 

[Recoen]

Another good discussion, thanks @charlie !

I don’t do well with Bs by mouth. I have been using energin topically and it has been a game changer.

The chronic GI issues never made much sense to me given the epithelium renews it’s lining every ~5-7d.

 

[BearWithMe]

Another good discussion, thanks @charlie !

I don’t do well with Bs by mouth. I have been using energin topically and it has been a game changer.

The chronic GI issues never made much sense to me given the epithelium renews it’s lining every ~5-7d.

Interesting! What dose are you using and where are you applying it?

 

[Recoen]

Interesting! What dose are you using and where are you applying it?

2 drops navel and 1 drop temples. The latter only if I’m not going out lol. I apply it 5-8 times per day.

 

[BearWithMe]

2 drops navel and 1 drop temples. The latter only if I’m not going out lol. I apply it 5-8 times per day.

Awesome, thank you!

 

[charlie]

Another good discussion, thanks @charlie !