Serotonin Increases Or Decreases Social Status?

GutFeeling

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In this study monkeys that were submissive became dominant after tryptophan and fluoxetine, while serotonin antagonists caused submission and made the male monkeys direct their agression most often to females
from the full study
"The figure also shows that fenfluramine- or cyproheptadine-treated subjects often directed aggression to females. This pattern contrasts sharply with that shown by vehicle-treated animals who directed less than 40% of their aggression to females (P < 0.05, by Scheffe's test). When the treated males aggressed against females, the females usually responded with severe, prolonged counter-attacks. Typically, these counter-attacks resulted in spatial and social isolation of the attacking male."

Serotonergic mechanisms promote dominance acquisition in adult male vervet monkeys - ScienceDirect
Serotonergic mechanisms promote dominance acquisition in adult male vervet monkeys
Author links open overlay panelMichael J.Raleigh1234Michael T.McGuire1234Gary L.Brammer124Deborah B.Pollack12ArthurYuwiler134
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Abstract
In a counter-balanced, cross-over study, we examined the contributions of serotonergic systems to the acquisition of social dominance in adult male vervet monkeys. Subjects were members of 12 social groups, each containing 3 adult males, at least 3 adult females, and their offspring. Animals were observed in 5 intervals including a first baseline, a first experimental, a second baseline, a second experimental, and a third baseline period. At the end of the first baseline period, the dominant male was removed from each group. In each group, one of the two remaining subordinate males was selected at random for treatment and during the first experimental period, 6 of the 12 treated males received drugs that enhanced serotonergic activity (3 were given tryptophan 40 mg/kg/day and 3 fluoxetine 2 mg/kg/day). The other 6 treated males received drugs that reduced serotonergic function (3 were given fenfluramine 2 mg/kg/day and 3 cyproheptadine 60 μg/kg/day). At the end of the first experimental period, the original dominant male was returned to his group and the second baseline period began. In all instances, the originally dominant male regained his dominant position. The second experimental period began with the dominant male again being removed and, the 12 treated males were given the treatment they had not received in the first experimental period. At the start of the third 12-week baseline period, the original dominant male was returned to his group and resumed his dominant status. When the 12 treated subjects received tryptophan or fluoxetine, they became dominant in all instances. When they received fenfluramine or cyproheptadine, their vehicle-treated cage mates became dominant. The sequence of the behavioral changes shown by the treated males as they acquired dominance status paralleled those seen in naturalistic conditions. These observations support the distinction between dominance and aggression and strongly suggest that when hierarchical relationships are uncertain, serotonergic mechanisms may mediate the behaviors which permit a male to attain high dominance status.
 

opethfeldt

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From my knowledge of serotonin promoting aggression and hostility, I can't imagine it promoting increased social status. Humans rarely gain status through aggression. Pro social is always the way to go and this is facilitated by a low serotonin state. The only time I would expect serotonin to promote high status is in an unstable environment where violence is the norm. I believe high serotonin in times of poverty is an adaptation that would allow acquisition of resources when there aren't many to go around. In that situation, being hostile and aggressive would be helpful.
 

Tarmander

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This is a good question. According to Jordan Peterson serotonin rises as you rise in a hierarchy, but he got this from animal models.

I always thought this was pretty one dimensional as humans have different types of hierarchies and those will reward different types of behaviors depending on their characteristics.

The question is what the big hierarchies in human history would respond to: violence, sexuality, farming, hunting, etc

I cannot imagine the hunting prowess hierarchy not responding to dopamine in a positive way, and therefore serotonin in a negative way.
 

Hugh Johnson

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Peterson knows nothing about brain chemistry. He ended up hospitalized for taking psychiatric drugs, for God's sake.

opethefledt is probably correct. Aggression can work for monkeys, at least short term. Not for humans long term.
 
OP
GutFeeling

GutFeeling

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The serotonin antagonism caused a dramatically increase in agression, and
Screenshot_2020-01-02-10-20-21-958_com.google.android.apps.docs.png
more directed for females
 

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berk

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(SSRIs) are generally recommended in the treatment of impulsive aggression. However, it should be kept in mind that special approaches are needed in special patient groups. For example, SSRIs have been found to be effective in the treatment of aggression in dementia patients and ineffective in patients with traumatic brain injury
SSRIs are generally recommended in the treatment of impulsive aggression
https://www.psych.theclinics.com/article/S0193-953X(16)30050-8/abstract

So humans are reaction differently than animels.
 

Kingpinguin

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In this study monkeys that were submissive became dominant after tryptophan and fluoxetine, while serotonin antagonists caused submission and made the male monkeys direct their agression most often to females
from the full study
"The figure also shows that fenfluramine- or cyproheptadine-treated subjects often directed aggression to females. This pattern contrasts sharply with that shown by vehicle-treated animals who directed less than 40% of their aggression to females (P < 0.05, by Scheffe's test). When the treated males aggressed against females, the females usually responded with severe, prolonged counter-attacks. Typically, these counter-attacks resulted in spatial and social isolation of the attacking male."

Serotonergic mechanisms promote dominance acquisition in adult male vervet monkeys - ScienceDirect
Serotonergic mechanisms promote dominance acquisition in adult male vervet monkeys
Author links open overlay panelMichael J.Raleigh1234Michael T.McGuire1234Gary L.Brammer124Deborah B.Pollack12ArthurYuwiler134
RedirectingGet rights and content

Abstract
In a counter-balanced, cross-over study, we examined the contributions of serotonergic systems to the acquisition of social dominance in adult male vervet monkeys. Subjects were members of 12 social groups, each containing 3 adult males, at least 3 adult females, and their offspring. Animals were observed in 5 intervals including a first baseline, a first experimental, a second baseline, a second experimental, and a third baseline period. At the end of the first baseline period, the dominant male was removed from each group. In each group, one of the two remaining subordinate males was selected at random for treatment and during the first experimental period, 6 of the 12 treated males received drugs that enhanced serotonergic activity (3 were given tryptophan 40 mg/kg/day and 3 fluoxetine 2 mg/kg/day). The other 6 treated males received drugs that reduced serotonergic function (3 were given fenfluramine 2 mg/kg/day and 3 cyproheptadine 60 μg/kg/day). At the end of the first experimental period, the original dominant male was returned to his group and the second baseline period began. In all instances, the originally dominant male regained his dominant position. The second experimental period began with the dominant male again being removed and, the 12 treated males were given the treatment they had not received in the first experimental period. At the start of the third 12-week baseline period, the original dominant male was returned to his group and resumed his dominant status. When the 12 treated subjects received tryptophan or fluoxetine, they became dominant in all instances. When they received fenfluramine or cyproheptadine, their vehicle-treated cage mates became dominant. The sequence of the behavioral changes shown by the treated males as they acquired dominance status paralleled those seen in naturalistic conditions. These observations support the distinction between dominance and aggression and strongly suggest that when hierarchical relationships are uncertain, serotonergic mechanisms may mediate the behaviors which permit a male to attain high dominance status.


High serotonin makes you aggressive. Too low serotonin can also cause symptoms off hypersensitivity. But I think that low serotonin is only possile to achieve with 4chloro-phenylalanine. Low dopamine is low motivation, anxiety, low energy, anti social behaviour. While high dopamine gives you hypomanic symptoms like euphoria, high self esteem, talkative and social and grandiose thoughts about themselves. Then there’s also the point where dopamine gets to high beyond hypomania into fullblown mania. That will cause irritability, dellusion, ideas of being followed and sleeping only for 3 hours. Think or serotonin as the hibernation hormone. It wants to unmotivate you, make you sleep, not wanna socialize. Dopamine is the opposite. No sleep, energy, motivation, wanna socialize all the time.
 

tankasnowgod

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This study would seem to have relevance only to caged animals that are establishing a new hierarchy after the dominant male has been removed. The only real life example I can think of is if the WWE Champion vacated the title, and you are part of a match (say, with Randy Orton) to become the NEW WWE Champion at Hell in a Cell at Wrestlemania, LIVE on Pay Per View! (Check with cable or satellite provider for details) In this situation, it would seem that cyproheptadine is best avoided.

Of note, when the dominant males were returned to their respective groups, they regained their dominant status 24 out of 24 times. The treatments would seem to have little effect on any established hierarchy, and may only do something in the short term.
 
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opethfeldt

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There's plenty of studies linking high testosterone and low cortisol to social dominance. We're all well aware serotonin increases cortisol so that makes it pretty obvious serotonin is not going to be good for social status. In humans, the individual with the lowest stress response tends to be the dominant. This is why DHT is so powerful for increasing social status. It acts on both serotonin and cortisol.
 

lampofred

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Many of the high serotonin vs low serotonin studies might be confounded by the fact that serotonin can raise GABA and low serotonin often means high glutamate. Glutamate will cause aggression. Low serotonin and high GABA is only possible with great thyroid/high CO2 tone.

Also

Serotonin and leadership

Me:
I heard of a study where they administered serotonin to low ranking monkeys in a pack and after administration, they became leaders in the pack.

Does this have to do more with becoming more aggressive, therefore becoming more dominant in your opinion?

Seems like leadership is mistaken for aggressiveness in a lot of literature and teachings I've come across.

Ray:
And in the military—leadership qualities overlap with cruelty and stupidity. A classmate of mine who talked about the importance of leadership, years later described his war crimes in Vietnam, and then was quoted as saying “I’m a professional, when the president says to shoot someone, I shoot them."
 
OP
GutFeeling

GutFeeling

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In mice serotonin antagonism causes higher social rank and agression

In monkeys serotonin antagonism causes higher agression and lower ranks, the high serotonin monkeys were less agressive and more sociable.
Cypro increased aggression by 90%
 

tankasnowgod

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In monkeys serotonin antagonism causes higher agression and lower ranks, the high serotonin monkeys were less agressive and more sociable.
Cypro increased aggression by 90%

But..... did it really? Aggression is defined as "Threatening, chasing, biting, or displaying to another animal." Locomotion, which was also increased, is defined as "Walking, running, or climbing for more than 1 m." So, maybe these monkeys were just more active in general.

I don't know about any "sociable" conclusions, none of any of the treated monkeys changed their role when the original dominant male returned.
 

kyle

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Man is different from animals in his rationality.

Someone should ask Peterson if lobsters have universities.
 

lampofred

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In mice serotonin antagonism causes higher social rank and agression

In monkeys serotonin antagonism causes higher agression and lower ranks, the high serotonin monkeys were less agressive and more sociable.
Cypro increased aggression by 90%

RP has said before that in these aggression studies, what they are calling "aggression" is just normal defensive behavior for mice at being handled by humans and the "anti-aggression" effect of serotonin is more so learned helplessness and resignation to fate as opposite to actual sociability.
 

YourUniverse

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From my knowledge of serotonin promoting aggression and hostility, I can't imagine it promoting increased social status. Humans rarely gain status through aggression. Pro social is always the way to go and this is facilitated by a low serotonin state. The only time I would expect serotonin to promote high status is in an unstable environment where violence is the norm. I believe high serotonin in times of poverty is an adaptation that would allow acquisition of resources when there aren't many to go around. In that situation, being hostile and aggressive would be helpful.
Humans routinely and easily gain status through aggression, they just won't keep it - others will not help them back up when they fall
 

opethfeldt

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Humans routinely and easily gain status through aggression, they just won't keep it - others will not help them back up when they fall
Or they get ganged up on later. One strong man can't possibly defeat many weak men. But in civilized society, violence is rarely used to gain status. Powerful politicians aren't holding people up at gunpoint. It's all about using pro social methods to gain favor. Because of this, a physically weak man can be the most dominant.
 

YourUniverse

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Or they get ganged up on later. One strong man can't possibly defeat many weak men. But in civilized society, violence is rarely used to gain status. Powerful politicians aren't holding people up at gunpoint. It's all about using pro social methods to gain favor. Because of this, a physically weak man can be the most dominant.
Youre conflagulating aggression with violence.
 

opethfeldt

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Youre conflagulating aggression with violence.
Low serotonin facilitates an assertive personality. This correlates quite well with social status. Aggression and violence are in the same category in my book.
 

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