Extreme Endotoxin Reaction. White Mushrooms. Portobello

Lollipop2

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schultz

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Are we assuming that all dietary LPS makes its way into circulation? Presumably something like the amount of fat in a meal would dictate how much makes it passed the intestines. Would dietary LPS even be a problem if a meal had no fat in it?

"The structure of LPS consists of a core polysaccharide flanked by a lipid A moiety and a O-specific polysaccharide region (Figure 1). The lipid A moiety is largely responsible for the toxic effects of LPS.[22] ALP likely acts to dephosphorylate the diphosphoryl lipid A moiety of LPS generating its nontoxic monophosphoryl derivative.[20,23]"

Yes and the limulus lysate assay is apparently not able to distinguish between the toxic diphosphoryl and the nontoxic monophosphoryl LPS

In pharmaceutical production, it is necessary to remove all traces of endotoxin from drug product containers, as even small amounts of endotoxin will cause illness in humans.

Except for in vaccinations apparently, which contain LPS and are injected (bypassing digestion)

Isn’t crimini the same as white button and portobello? I read they are simply different ages: white button youngest —> crimini a bit older/mature —> portobello the oldest most mature.

Yah I think someone mentioned that. I am going to assume that the older portobello has time to incorporate more bacteria/LPS into its tissue than the younger specimens like cremini and white button.
 
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methylenewhite
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He knows something. In my experience portobello is the worst offender. Even shitload of Thai street food made on 20 years old soya oil is not that bad.
 

yerrag

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I have the impression that fungus fights bacteria, as plenty of antibiotics such as penicillin is made from fungus. So to find that some mushrooms, which are essentially fungi, could harbor bacteria and endotoxins is a surprise.

Why is it that maitake and shiitake mushrooms would have less bacteria and endotoxins while say, wood ear mushrooms would have much more? Is it because maitake shiitake mushrooms competitively excludes bacteria from proliferating - such that no bacteria can ever multiply? While wood ear doesn't, such that bacteria can multiply, even as wood ear does its part in destroying the bacteria, while producing endotoxin remnants?

Perhaps the environment in which the mushroom is grown can be modified such that bacteria is competitively excluded can allow wood ear mushrooms with low bacteria/endotoxin content to be produced. But the question here is would there be a market for more expensive but endotoxin-free wood ear mushrooms. Given that shiitake and maitake mushrooms are more expensive and are already valued for health, a more expensive cultivation process can be used. Perhaps the growers have already realized that the yield and quality and efficacy of these mushrooms improve with a more meticulous and expensive cultivating process that happens to be one that is essentially bacteria- and endotoxin-free.

Also, perhaps it is precisely the white button mushroom adapting to a high bacteria environment, purposely created by the cultivator, that creates the adaptation that causes the button mushroom to develop into a portobello.

In fact, some mushrooms cannot be cultivated because the mushroom has to have a certain microbiome that can only be found in the wild. That microbiome is nature's secret and can only be attained in an area that is free from man's interference. An example is the expensive truffles.
 
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schultz

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But the question here is would there be a market for more expensive but endotoxin-free wood ear mushrooms.

No there wouldn't. 99.99999% of people are not even aware of what endotoxin even is, let alone understand its effects on the organism.

If I were to focus my energy on making a food better, I think eggs would be at the top of that list. Low PUFA eggs would be very valuable IMO. I had these several years ago and now realize how lucky I was... I keep meaning to get some more chickens!!
 

yerrag

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No there wouldn't. 99.99999% of people are not even aware of what endotoxin even is, let alone understand its effects on the organism.
That is the point precisely. If they don't know, why would there be a market for more expensive and endotoxin-free mushrooms?
 

schultz

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That is the point precisely. If they don't know, why would there be a market for more expensive and endotoxin-free mushrooms?

I still find it strange that it's not a mainstream thing. Outside of this forum, I've never heard anyone discuss it and yet it's implicated in obesity, diabetes and so many other things. I wonder when it will become popular? I guess it's not sexy enough to be in vogue. It's no acai berry.
 

yerrag

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Shiitake and maitake and portobello have sinilar shapes.

Shiitake and maitake have long been known in Asia. It then became known in the West and the rest of the world. They are high value.

Perhaps the mafia saw opportunity and developed the portobello - larger and maybe, in the eyes of buyers, better! And now we have another mushroom that looks like shiitake and maitake. By association, people would ascribe some of the properties of the Asian mushroom to the portobello. And voila! a demand for portobello is born - high price, high margin, but having none of the therapeutic benefits, but in reality all the things the Asian mushrooms are not! And even bad.

The thing going for the portobello is that it dwarfs the Asian mushrooms. It tastes good. And more importantly, it's easier to pronounce. And have you tasted it? It tastes good. Good marketing!

But hey, who ever got sick of endotoxin poisoning? You may feel endotoxin effects, but you still live on to eat another, and another.
 
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Peat says cook by boiling at least 45 minutes. I would say he’s right again. I cook 45 minutes in the pressure cooker. Peat has said “several hours” I seem to recall, but 45 minutes was a minimum in an interview. My 45 minutes in a pressure cooker of the ground up mushrooms probably destroys most of the LPS,.

But here’s another thought:

Mushrooms are fascinating because they do NOT get the ordinary mold other foods get. They get brown spots on them though. I am not sure how fresh the mushrooms were that they used in the study. When we get freshly picked white button mushrooms they are not brown at all.

Maybe the brown spots are colonies of bacteria.

OTOH, maybe not. Maybe the mushrooms kill the bacteria and the endotoxins are from that, as has been surmised here.
 

boris

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@ecstatichamster Don't know if it's normal, but the white button mushrooms I get at the store get moldy after a while (the ordinary mold other foods get). Often they sit some days in the store and even have mold already on the shelf. Same with carrots (on the green parts at the top). I recently had to throw a newly bought package away, because they were already moldy when I bought them but didn't notice.

This is more the fault of the stores though. All the stores around me (in a big city) have moldy stuff on the shelves :x. From oranges to mushrooms.
 
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@ecstatichamster Don't know if it's normal, but the white button mushrooms I get at the store get moldy after a while (the ordinary mold other foods get). Often they sit some days in the store and even have mold already on the shelf. Same with carrots (on the green parts at the top). I recently had to throw a newly bought package away, because they were already moldy when I bought them but didn't notice.

This is more the fault of the stores though. All the stores around me (in a big city) have moldy stuff on the shelves :x. From oranges to mushrooms.

I never see moldy mushrooms and rarely moldy carrots either, even old ones.
 

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@Lewis Acid, my bad, I didn't realize you posted the same link before. Extremely toxic copy!!1

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[7] Microbiological quality and safety of fresh cultivated and wild mushrooms commercialized in Spain

upload_2019-12-29_10-5-4.png

- Bacterial components are the major contributors to the macrophage stimulating activity exhibited by extracts of common edible mushrooms
There are parts that is thin (such as peel), others that have a lot of mass. The bacterial load doesn't change to the same extent as the LPS concentration, so it seems that it's destroying them and these are incorporated somehow as they mature.

I wouldn't discard the possibility that potent antimicrobials are being developed and you end up with a harsh produce. Sodium hydroxide avoided the activation, but in the livings part of the reaction can be from the harsh compounds (just like the bizarre responses to garlic).

Isn't it strange that creminis had a lower LPS level than white-buttons since they're also the same type?

But the bright side to the worst case scenario is being ignored. What everyone is shying away from could be of use under certain conditions and provided that it's not a regular thing (nowthegod, 2019). A shock from it is expected, just like it can happen with fever. We can call them from now on 'Coley's colic toxins'.
 
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Wolf

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Peat says cook by boiling at least 45 minutes. I would say he’s right again. I cook 45 minutes in the pressure cooker. Peat has said “several hours” I seem to recall, but 45 minutes was a minimum in an interview. My 45 minutes in a pressure cooker of the ground up mushrooms probably destroys most of the LPS,.

But here’s another thought:

Mushrooms are fascinating because they do NOT get the ordinary mold other foods get. They get brown spots on them though. I am not sure how fresh the mushrooms were that they used in the study. When we get freshly picked white button mushrooms they are not brown at all.

Maybe the brown spots are colonies of bacteria.

OTOH, maybe not. Maybe the mushrooms kill the bacteria and the endotoxins are from that, as has been surmised here.
I do that and also slice them beforehand and irradiated them with UV.
I've never had any issue with any sort of mushrooms but all it take is one bad batch.
 

LeeLemonoil

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I think ts possible that beta-glucans especially, but also the sterols and sesquiterpenes or some intricate peptides even that are occurring in many edible mushrooms would modify and alleviate endotoxin-immune response in vivo (eaten!)

Speculation only, not yet looked into it.
People eat raw extracts of mushrooms and stuff, by far not all report averse experiences


That's highly likely actualy
 
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methylenewhite
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That's highly likely actualy

They don't react this way. First time I got sick after eating portobello I spent 2 days bedridden. Another guy we were cooking and eating together with did just fine. It's gut flora and immune system what matter.
 
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methylenewhite
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Where I originally from there is an old mushroom hunting culture. And there are 3 main groups of mushrooms. Edible, conditionally edible, non edible. Edible means you can even eat it raw straight from the ground in the woods. Conditionally edible group requires extensive preparation, often it takes 3-4 cycles of boiling and changing water, curing, drying and etc. Non edible group remains toxic despite any possible processing. This topic rises question about that conditionally edible group, is it endougenous chemical compounds in those mushrooms are extracted/destroyed during cooking or just bacterial flora and it's metabolic products are removed? Probably both.

My father's brother is/was a big fan of "silent hunting", this is how they call it there. Once he went to hunt mushrooms and never came back.

Every year there are entire families are wiped out by just one wrong mushroom in a basket of good ones.
 

Ben Stone

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I finally figured out why sometimes I have extreme gut reaction for button mushrooms. Bloating, gas, discomfort, insomnia, chils, freezing cold, agitation.
Portobello is the answer. I googled and wow! Being the same specie portobello is just a mature common button mushroom. But age matters. Portobello provokes 9 times stronger TNF response. And contains 250(!) times more LPS. This study is life-saver! And portobello has second highest bacterial load. Damn me that guy is right about portobello conspiracy.

Bacterial components are the major contributors to the macrophage stimulating activity exhibited by extracts of common edible mushrooms

Given the results shown in Table 1, clearly indicating Cremini as a superior choice to white button mushrooms (or Portobello) - can anyone advise if Cremini otherwise possess all the benefits of white button mushrooms?

Can anyone explain why Cremini would be less harmful given they are more mature than younger white button mushrooms? Is the data flawed? Does not make intuitive sense....
 

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