Looking At Birds To Understand PUFA? High Body Temp Still Eats Seeds And Fatty Fish

Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
10,501
From Ray's article about fish oil:
"Despite the nutritional value of those vitamins, fish oils are generally much more immunosuppressive than the seed oils, and the early effects of fish oil on the "immune system" include the suppression of prostaglandin synthesis, because the more highly unsaturated long chain fats interfere with the conversion of linoleic acid into arachidonic acid and prostaglandins. The prostaglandins are so problematic that their suppression is helpful, whether the inhibition is caused by aspirin or vitamin E, or by fish oil."

So omega-3s are less inflammatory than omega- 6s, but EFA deficiency would still be better than having a nice Omega-3 to Omega-6 ratio, since fish oil and other exogenous PUFAs are very immunosuppressive. and cause liver damage, as well as skin damage.

great summary. Thank you.
 

yerrag

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
10,883
Location
Manila
From Ray's article about fish oil:
"Despite the nutritional value of those vitamins, fish oils are generally much more immunosuppressive than the seed oils, and the early effects of fish oil on the "immune system" include the suppression of prostaglandin synthesis, because the more highly unsaturated long chain fats interfere with the conversion of linoleic acid into arachidonic acid and prostaglandins. The prostaglandins are so problematic that their suppression is helpful, whether the inhibition is caused by aspirin or vitamin E, or by fish oil."

So omega-3s are less inflammatory than omega- 6s, but EFA deficiency would still be better than having a nice Omega-3 to Omega-6 ratio, since fish oil and other exogenous PUFAs are very immunosuppressive. and cause liver damage, as well as skin damage.
That's a quote that takes repeat readings to internalize fully. Thanks for looking that up.
 
OP
Kingpinguin

Kingpinguin

Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2019
Messages
586
That's a quote that takes repeat readings to internalize fully. Thanks for looking that up.

that is what i was saying. n-6 is so bad that n-3 is beneficial. My assumption from it all looking at the overallness of the situation is that foods today are generally higher in n-6. If you do the research you find out n-3 helps with that even in small enough doses that it wont cause any oxidative damage. Thats why animals feed grass make more omega 3 than grain feed. Keeping pufa low and keeping vitamin E levels healthy sure will counter but my point was eating seafood and fish will not hurt. Thats why there’s so much literature and studies about the health benefits of seafood. Many cultures eat lots of seafood they are not sick. Which culture is sick is the american culture with high n-6 and low vitamin E. What i want to do is to show its not necessary to avoid fish. It is probably even healthy to eat it once in awhile. But if you dont like it then dont eat it. Fish oil supplements in my opinion is another thing though. Its bad. You never know how long the oil had a shelf life, rancidity. All of the extra nutrients from real fish is gone like vitamin D, calcium and many more.
The notion that small doses of fish oil is so unstable that it will oxidize at an instant is just false. I believe the body has its ways to take care of that just like it does with many other essential but harmful minerals for example.
 

yerrag

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
10,883
Location
Manila
that is what i was saying. n-6 is so bad that n-3 is beneficial. My assumption from it all looking at the overallness of the situation is that foods today are generally higher in n-6. If you do the research you find out n-3 helps with that even in small enough doses that it wont cause any oxidative damage. Thats why animals feed grass make more omega 3 than grain feed. Keeping pufa low and keeping vitamin E levels healthy sure will counter but my point was eating seafood and fish will not hurt. Thats why there’s so much literature and studies about the health benefits of seafood. Many cultures eat lots of seafood they are not sick. Which culture is sick is the american culture with high n-6 and low vitamin E. What i want to do is to show its not necessary to avoid fish. It is probably even healthy to eat it once in awhile. But if you dont like it then dont eat it. Fish oil supplements in my opinion is another thing though. Its bad. You never know how long the oil had a shelf life, rancidity. All of the extra nutrients from real fish is gone like vitamin D, calcium and many more.
The notion that small doses of fish oil is so unstable that it will oxidize at an instant is just false. I believe the body has its ways to take care of that just like it does with many other essential but harmful minerals for example.

Fish oil supplements are bad not just because of the shelf life concerns. It's already bad even if it were freshly made. The fact that it gets rancid already says enough about how bad it is.

Saying fish oil is bad isn't tantamount to saying eating fish is bad. PCB toxins in farm-raised salmon and mercury contamination aside, fish caught in warm waters have generally less PUFAs and more saturated fats. That said, eating fish gives us the protection of vitamin E that comes with the fish, whereas taking fish oil gives us none of the protection vitamin E offers. So, I would skip on the fish oil and eat warm water fish.

But going back to that quote, Ray Peat was saying that prostaglandins are so bad that suppressing them is helpful, and omega-3s are helpful in that regard. But he does say that fish oils are generally more immunosuppresive. That is a perjorative, not a vote of confidence in fish oils.

From The Great Fish Oil Experiment :

  • Reading medical journals and following the mass media, it's easy to get the idea that fish oil is something any sensible person should use. It's rare to see anything suggesting that it could be dangerous.
  • During the recent years in which the U.S. government has gone from warning against the consumption of too much of these omega-3 oils ("to assure that the combined daily intake of two fatty acids that are components" "(i.e., eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA)) would not exceed 3 grams per person per day (g/p/d)") to sponsoring biased industry claims, there has been considerable accumulation of information about the dangers of fish oils and omega-3 fatty acids. But there has been an even greater increase in the industry's promotional activities.
  • The original "essential fatty acids" were linoleic, linolenic, and arachidonic acids. Now that the toxic effects of those are coming to be recognized, new "essential fatty acids," the omega-3 fatty acids, including those with long chains, found in fish oils, are said to make babies more intelligent, to be necessary for good vision, and to prevent cancer, heart disease, obesity, arthritis, depression, epilepsy, psychosis, dementia, ulcers, eczema and dry skin.
  • In experiments that last just a few weeks or months, there may not be time for cancers to develop, and on that time scale, the immunosuppressive and antiinflammatory effects of oxidized fish oil might seem beneficial. For a few decades, x-ray treatments were used to relieve inflammatory conditions, and most of the doctors who promoted the treatment were able to retire before their patients began suffering the fatal effects of atrophy, fibrosis, and cancer. (But a few people are still advocating x-ray therapy for inflammatory diseases, e.g., Hildebrandt, et al., 2003.) The fish oil fad is now just as old as the x-ray fad was at its peak of popularity, and if its antiinflammatory actions involve the same mechanisms as the antiinflammatory immunosuppressive x-ray treatments, then we can expect to see another epidemic of fibrotic conditions and cancer in about 15 to 20 years.
  • Without antioxidants, fish oil is massively degraded within 48 hours, and even with a huge amount of antioxidant there is still considerable degradation
  • The most popular way of arguing that fish oil will prevent heart disease is to show that it lowers blood lipids, continuing the old approach of the American Heart Association's "heart protective diet." Unfortunately for that argument, it's now known that the triglycerides in the blood are decreased because of the fish oil's toxic effects on the liver.
  • When animals are fed fish oil and then exposed to bacteria, their immunosuppressed thymic (T) cells cause them to succumb to the infection more easily than animals fed coconut oil or a fat free diet. Natural killer cells, which eliminate cancer cells and virus infected cells, are decreased after eating fish oil, and T suppressor cells are often increased.
It's much better to read the article to understand fully the dangers of omega-3s. They're not the antidote to omega-6. They are partners in crime.

 
Joined
Jun 16, 2017
Messages
1,790
That's a quote that takes repeat readings to internalize fully. Thanks for looking that up.
Yeah.

You're welcome!
that is what i was saying. n-6 is so bad that n-3 is beneficial. My assumption from it all looking at the overallness of the situation is that foods today are generally higher in n-6. If you do the research you find out n-3 helps with that even in small enough doses that it wont cause any oxidative damage. Thats why animals feed grass make more omega 3 than grain feed. Keeping pufa low and keeping vitamin E levels healthy sure will counter but my point was eating seafood and fish will not hurt. Thats why there’s so much literature and studies about the health benefits of seafood. Many cultures eat lots of seafood they are not sick. Which culture is sick is the american culture with high n-6 and low vitamin E. What i want to do is to show its not necessary to avoid fish. It is probably even healthy to eat it once in awhile. But if you dont like it then dont eat it. Fish oil supplements in my opinion is another thing though. Its bad. You never know how long the oil had a shelf life, rancidity. All of the extra nutrients from real fish is gone like vitamin D, calcium and many more.
The notion that small doses of fish oil is so unstable that it will oxidize at an instant is just false. I believe the body has its ways to take care of that just like it does with many other essential but harmful minerals for example.
Ray said that he met a young man who was a fisherman, and was eating one or two pounds of salmon everyday, and he was developing symptoms of multiple sclerosis, I believe it was. When he stopped consuming so much salmon, his disease improved. Eating lots of omega-3s, even if it's from seafood, isn't something I would recommend. Low fat fishes, such as cod, are great though, as are fishes from warm places, as @yerrag said, and there is no reason, aside from ocean pollution, to avoid these if you enjoy eating them.

But yeah, if the amount of PUFA you're ingesting is low, then less omega-6 is likely better. Grass fed beef, as you mentioned, has less linoleic acid and more omega-3s, as well as a lower PUFA percentage compared to grain- fed beef. At such small amounts, though, omega-3s' effects are very different from consuming fatty fish, especially because beef has a ton of saturated fat, which keeps PUFA stable. And, as @schultz said, you'll end up with more mead acid, the more you restric PUFA,especially omega-6s.
 

Elias

Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2016
Messages
18
I remember researching this question about 2 years ago. I came upon this excellent article by a world renowned authority by the name of Dr. Angel Catala.
The link below should take you to the article. The subject is treated with expert authority, and evidence to back it up. There is also a good dose of humility on the part of Dr. Catala, which makes the reading quite engaging [for me at least].
Five Decades with Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids: Chemical Synthesis, Enzymatic Formation, Lipid Peroxidation and Its Biological Effects
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jl/2013/710290/
 
OP
Kingpinguin

Kingpinguin

Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2019
Messages
586
I remember researching this question about 2 years ago. I came upon this excellent article by a world renowned authority by the name of Dr. Angel Catala.
The link below should take you to the article. The subject is treated with expert authority, and evidence to back it up. There is also a good dose of humility on the part of Dr. Catala, which makes the reading quite engaging [for me at least].
Five Decades with Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids: Chemical Synthesis, Enzymatic Formation, Lipid Peroxidation and Its Biological Effects
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jl/2013/710290/

thanks was an interesting read. The article never really seems to proclaim any direct ill effects of n-6 or n-3 per se. Just that free radicals do have a tendency to damage those fatty acids when the defence system is broken. Article also acknowledge that brain and retina is higher in these fatty acids. I’ve always been curious as to why the body feel it has a need to accumulate something toxic if it was not necessary for brain function or vision. Seems rather odd it even installs a defence mechanism to protect these fatty acids from oxidation.

Lipoperoxidation of Rod Outer Segments of Bovine Retina Is Inhibited by Soluble Binding Proteins for Fatty Acids
In the present study, it was investigated if soluble-binding proteins for fatty acids (FABPs) present in neural retina show protection from in vitro lipoperoxidation of rod outer segment membranes (ROS). After incubation of ROS in an ascorbate-Fe++ system, at 37°C during 90–120 min, the total cpm originated from light emission (chemiluminescence) was found to be lower in those membranes incubated in the presence of soluble binding proteins for fatty acids. The fatty acid composition of rod outer segment membranes was substantially modified when subjected to nonenzymatic lipoperoxidation with a considerable decrease of docosahexaenoic acid (22:6 n-3) and arachidonic acid (20:4 n-6). As a result of this, the unsaturation index, a parameter based on the maximal rate of oxidation of specific fatty acids, was higher in the native and control membranes when compared with peroxidized ones. A similar decrease of chemiluminescence was observed with the addition of increasing concentrations of native or delipidated FABP retinal containing fractions to rod outer segment membranes. These results indicate that soluble proteins with fatty acid binding properties may act as antioxidant protecting rod outer segment membranes from deleterious effect [55].

8.2. The Effect of Alpha Tocopherol, All-Trans Retinol, and Retinyl Palmitate on the Nonenzymatic Lipid Peroxidation of Rod Outer Segments
The effect of a tocopherol, all-trans retinol, and retinyl palmitate on the nonenzymatic lipid peroxidation induced by ascorbate-Fe2+ of rod outer segment membranes isolated from bovine retina was examined. The inhibition of light emission (maximal induced chemiluminescence) by alpha tocopherol, all-trans retinol, and retinyl palmitate was concentration dependent. All trans retinol showed a substantial degree of inhibition against ascorbate-Fe2+-induced lipid peroxidation in rod outer segment membranes that was 10 times higher than that observed in the presence of either at tocopherol or retinyl palmitate. Inhibition of lipid peroxidation of rod outer segment membranes by alpha tocopherol and retinyl palmitate was almost linear for up to 0,5 micromol vitamin/mg membrane protein, whereas all-trans retinol showed linearity up to 0,1 micromol vitamin/mg membrane protein. Incubation of rod outer segments with increasing amounts of low-molecular-weight cytosolic proteins carrying I-[14C] linoleic acid, [3H] retinyl palmitate, or [3H] all-trans retinol during the lipid peroxidation process produced a net transfer of ligand from soluble protein to membranes. Linoleic acid was 4 times more effectively transferred to rod outer segment membranes than all-trans retinol or retinyl palmitate. Incubation of rod outer segments with delipidated low-molecular-weight cytosolic proteins produced inhibition of lipid peroxidation. The inhibitory effect was increased when the soluble retinal protein fraction containing alpha tocopherol was used. These data provide strong support for the role of all-trans retinol as the major retinal antioxidant and open the way for many fruitful studies on the interaction and precise roles of low-molecular-weight cytosolic retinal proteins involved in the binding of antioxidant hydrophobic compounds with rod outer segments [56].
 

tara

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
10,368
Chickens only eat seeds and grains if you don't provide something better. They go cracy for bugs, worms, ants, maggots etc. and spend almost all waking time scratching the ground looking for them even if you provide as much grains as they can eat. So maybe the "normal bird food" is not so common in nature after all.
+1
They love greens too - as anyone who's let them loose in the garden can attest.
Will also strip the meat from any bones thrown to them.
 
J

jb116

Guest
A colleague of mine raises chickens in NY, she will see them with frogs in their mouth and mice, running with excitement to go chow down. Blew my mind lol
 

baccheion

Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
2,113
How does this and Peating apply when someone has issues with saturated fat (APOE 4/3, APOA2, FTO, and PCSK9)?
 
Last edited:

boris

Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2019
Messages
2,345
+1
They love greens too - as anyone who's let them loose in the garden can attest.
Will also strip the meat from any bones thrown to them.

They love milk too!

Chickens+drinking+milk+010-001.JPG
 
OP
Kingpinguin

Kingpinguin

Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2019
Messages
586
Omega-3 Fatty Acid Supplementation During Pregnancy this seems to come to the conclusion that fish oil is good during pregnancy, children had better mental processing scores and better eye and hand coordination. Also when I use to take fish oil it helped with my prostatitis so I don't know what to think .

of course it is needed for children. If DHA is the precursor to synaptamide. An endocannabinoid specific with its action to make healthy synapses in the nervous system it makes sense its needed for a new born developing all new nerve connections. Theres a reason why the brain and other neuron dense organs are so high in these fatty acids. Its not like the brain says oohh this is an oxidative poison. Lets accumulate all of it in the most important organ.
Like the mentiond AA is also needed for fetus development. Something needs to trigger the growth. Its in adults when you get excess of these fatty acids that is harmful. The dose makes the poison so to say.
Thats why I believe we are getting flooded with AA and so that makes us omega 3 deficient.
 
Last edited:

boris

Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2019
Messages
2,345
From the study: "Pregnant women should reduce their intake of these oils and substitute others that are rich in omega-3 fatty acids like flaxseed, canola, and soybean oil.42,46"
Sorry, but I can't take these people seriously :wink.

I am open to the Omega 3 discussion in general since Peat says it is needed to get pregnant. But you would get a tiny amount from pasture raised animal products too.

Just by skimming over it the study seemed to compare Omega 6 rich diets to Omega 3 rich diets. Looks like it showed that less Omega 6 is beneficial and not that Omega 3 is beneficial.

Its not like the brain says oohh this is an oxidative poison. Lets accumulate all of it in the most important organ

Mercury accumulates in the brain too.
 
OP
Kingpinguin

Kingpinguin

Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2019
Messages
586
From the study: "Pregnant women should reduce their intake of these oils and substitute others that are rich in omega-3 fatty acids like flaxseed, canola, and soybean oil.42,46"
Sorry, but I can't take these people seriously :wink.

I am open to the Omega 3 discussion in general since Peat says it is needed to get pregnant. But you would get a tiny amount from pasture raised animal products too.

Just by skimming over it the study seemed to compare Omega 6 rich diets to Omega 3 rich diets. Looks like it showed that less Omega 6 is beneficial and not that Omega 3 is beneficial.



Mercury accumulates in the brain too.

Mercury accumulates in the brain too.... Dude you know how stupid that sounds? Obviously you cant compare. A infant during pregnancy doesnt rapidly increase mercury accumulation. Comparing that and making that statement just makes you look dumb.

and the comment that you cant take these people seriously like your above them. Or that you posses information that they don’t or scientific understanding also just make you seem ignorant.

There’s a great understanding how these fatty acids work and what they do in the scientific community.
Like you said tho theres a natural level of both these fatty acids and humans have deranged that ratio and amount through agriculture and interfering with the natural amounts and ratiod found in food we eat. But that does not mean that they dont have any physiological role in human biology. And comparing that to mercury is just ridicolous.
 

boris

Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2019
Messages
2,345
You sound pretty stressed out, are you constipated or something?

I was comparing it specifically in regards to your sentence. Obviously toxins accumulate in all sorts of important places.

edit:
and the comment that you cant take these people seriously like your above them. Or that you posses information that they don’t or scientific understanding also just make you seem ignorant.

I don't think I am above any living being. But my opinion of them as scientists is even lower than you think. I think they are dangerous and a menace to humanity making recommendations like these.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 16, 2017
Messages
1,790
From the study: "Pregnant women should reduce their intake of these oils and substitute others that are rich in omega-3 fatty acids like flaxseed, canola, and soybean oil.42,46"
Sorry, but I can't take these people seriously :wink.
Hahaha soybean oil for pregnant women :hairpull
 

yerrag

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
10,883
Location
Manila

tara

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
10,368
A colleague of mine raises chickens in NY, she will see them with frogs in their mouth and mice, running with excitement to go chow down. Blew my mind lol
They love milk too!
Yip. Quite the omnivores. :)
Not keen on onions and citrus, IIRC.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom