Bringing To Attention The Dark Side Of Dairy

[boris]

I can imagine it varies a lot from person to person and depending on current health status.

 

[olive]

Definitely need calcium of course, the question is how much do you need and how low can calcium intake go without issue. Mainstream says 1g, Peat says 2g (though I dont think he said 2g was necessary, but that 2g was optimal).

I think 800-1500mg/day is optimal based on my experience. On the higher end if consuming a phosphorous heavy diet.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

Ca with less than optimal Magnesium status is highly pro-apoptotic and inflammatory though.
If Mg insufficiency is suspected or inflammation,i would Dose Ca no more than 600mg to 800mg,
mild Calcium insufficiency abates the issues coming from Mg-deficiency,which are in part
mediated by disinhibition of Calcium-ion-ionic signalling.

 

[BeBetter]

I remember when I first found Peat's website, I immediately tried to switch from the very low carb diet I'd been on to all milk and OJ.

It made me terribly sick. Even worse than how I was already feeling. I couldn't get through two days.

So I went back to what I'd been doing (except no PUFAs) but just added OJ and fruit and a little milk or cheese each day. I just kept shifting little by little and kept feeling better and better.

Same for supplements. I tried to leap in with big doses of thiamine and niacinamide and felt terrible. So I cut back to a very small dose and added gradually. And I just keep feeling better and better.

I saw that you have switched from a low carb diet to a Peat type diet successfully. I am trying to do that now, and am wondering if you would mind expanding on what your diet consists of now.
Also, did you go through a stage where you wanted to eat all day long?
I am going through that right now and am trying to decide if I should fight it or not.
One more thing, do you include any sugar added to your milk or juice?
Thank you

 

[johnsmith]

I suspect dairy gives me brainfog. Are there any forms of dairy that might be least likely to do this?

 

[redsun]

I suspect dairy gives me brainfog. Are there any forms of dairy that might be least likely to do this?

Try high quality, very aged/fermented dairy.

 

[Jennifer]

I suspect dairy gives me brainfog. Are there any forms of dairy that might be least likely to do this?

Maybe goat dairy, if you haven't tried it already? Cow dairy, even A2, leaves me constipated and foggy headed but I recently began experimenting with goat dairy and have experienced nothing but positive benefits from it. Unlike cow dairy, it digests quickly and easily for me and doesn't sit like a brick in my gut.

 

[Runenight201]

Have you tried lower fat versions? You could also try some skim/1% with cocoa powder, coffee, and sugar. It’s a completely different experience.

 

[thomas00]

The opioids thing gets wheeled out so people can compare some food that didn't agree with them to a street drug. It's a favorite of vegans and vegetarians. I just read a nitwit endocrinologist do the same thing with t3.

Re:Acne. I never ate any dairy at school and had cystic acne. It's so lazy to blame it all on dairy. Did the dairy bashers not read Peat's quip about the Masai's complete lack of these supposed dairy-induced maladies?

The only issues with dairy come down to the quality of it's production and handling.

 

[Inaut]

The opioids thing gets wheeled out so people can compare some food that didn't agree with them to a street drug. It's a favorite of vegans and vegetarians. I just read a nitwit endocrinologist do the same thing with t3.

Re:Acne. I never ate any dairy at school and had cystic acne. It's so lazy to blame it all on dairy. Did the dairy bashers not read Peat's quip about the Masai's complete lack of these supposed dairy-induced maladies?

The only issues with dairy come down to the quality of it's production and handling.

I like your perspective on this. I also have far less acne then when I was avoiding dairy. Drinking about 1.3 L of regular homo cow’s milk daily now with added cream.

 

[rei]

I suspect dairy gives me brainfog. Are there any forms of dairy that might be least likely to do this?

Are you sure brainfog is not just what it feels like when stress hormones are powerfully reduced?

 

[johnsmith]

Are you sure brainfog is not just what it feels like when stress hormones are powerfully reduced?

I'm quite sure it's not just the sleepy low stress state. I would describe my brain fog as feeling like an inflammatory effect in the brain; it makes my mind feel a bit foggy, and when it's really bad I get an eye strain like feeling when I walk into grocery stores.

I tried Keto a year ago for two weeks. My mind became quite clear, but my energy levels became crippled.

I'm guessing my brain fog is due to some sort of autoimmune issue, gut issue, and/or hormonal issue and I suspect that diary might play a role in this. I've tried to bring dairy back into my diet a couple of times but each time I've had to 'tap out' due to my brain fog getting unbearable. Haagen-dazs ice cream seems to flare up the brain fog more than any other form of dairy. It seems like starch may cause a bit of brain fog as well, but I suspect not as much as dairy. Minocycline seems to eliminate my brain fog right away, any time it flares up.

@redsun I also have a feeling that old high-quality cheeses like parmesan might be the safest.
@Runenight201 I haven't tried low fat versions of dairy alone, but I like this idea. Apparently lots of the bad stuff is stored in the fat. Haagen-dazs ice cream seems to be the worst for my brain fog.
@Jennifer Goat dairy is a good idea. I think I've heard haidut mention that some people find UHT milk easier to digest. I've tried both, but its difficult to pinpoint whats doing what.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

@johnsmith I would also advise for cheese,Milk has a different microbiological profile.I wrote this today:

"A lot of people have severe issues with milk in general.Indeed,the bacterial contamination is concerning,the bacterial profile is for a species with complex multigastric digestion system,and is probably geared towards infection of the gastric system of the host.But we are not herbivores..I would consume storebought if necessary at all,I do not know many milkdrinkers besides Ray Peat Forum,Calcium from Ca-Carbonate is also possible.Personally,i would consume Ultrahigh-Heated,long shelf-life milk,if i had to,and supplement with a comprehensive Multi."

 

[thomas00]

@johnsmith
"A lot of people have severe issues with milk in general.

because they are sick and not addressing their problems with a coherent approach and instead doing dumb allergy diets and becoming neurotic about food

Indeed,the bacterial contamination is concerning,the bacterial profile is for a species with complex multigastric digestion system,and is probably geared towards infection of the gastric system of the host.

pure speculation

 

[thomas00]

LONG LIFE ON MILK DIET.; Russian Savant Finds Caucasus Village With 18 Centenarians.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

because they are sick and not addressing their problems with a coherent approach and instead doing dumb allergy diets and becoming neurotic about food



pure speculation

member Travis also reported on induced Brain-Folate deficiency via milkconsumption,which can cause reduced expression of Folate"receptors",and i just dont know many who are big fans of Milk outside of this Forum.Dairy yes,and Butter,but milk seems problematic.And safety is tentative,the hormonal profile and its effects are in its entirety unknown,+ infection of the stomach with selected herbivore-microbiome.

 

[TheBeard]

Hey guys, before i start this off i just want to say i 100% support Peat and what he stands for in terms of dairy and calcium, i notice what he says works, when i eat a lot of calcium i get a huge metabolic boost,

but one thing i really wanted to bring to light in this forum is the real downsides or nasty side of dairy that not too many folks seem to be discussing,

what prompted me to do this is i'm a huge dairy consumer, 2L of skim milk or tons of fat free yogurt and lots of cheese,
the issue is i have extremely severe bowel issues, something what i speculate to be crohn's, i get hard swelling in my gut liver and intestines area, my skin goes almost pale jaundice, i get horrible brain fog and really bad B.O. essentially all of the horrible endotoxin symptoms,

and i notice this EVERYTIME i go really hard on dairy and load up on lots of it,
so i get extremely sick like someone with crohn's would horrible fatigue bad skin hair loss etc, then every time i cut out dairy things seem to improve real fast,

so i did a little bit of digging, and while there's not much out there (likely due to the dairy industry covering their tracks) i came across a few things i wanted to share to open a discussion on here and get some feedback,

so Haidut made a post on here saying crohn's and collitis have been tied to fungi and bacteria implicating it's possible it could be completely bacterial based (combined with the hosts response to inflammation like fibrosis etc)

one of the microbes that the finger was pointed at was the mycobacterium paratuberculosis.

Now if you do any research on this M.A.P. bacteria, you will notice it's ALWAYS implicated to be sourced largely from dairy products as the main source of contamination,

So bottom line M.A.P. - the mycobacterium has been said to be thee bacterial cause of crohn's because it was noted that infection with this bacteria in cows caused the cow version of crohn's essentially which they call John's disease.

So if that bacteria essentially causes crohn's in cows, and its contaminated largely in dairy products (and not eliminated by pasteurization) who's to say it isn't doing the same or at least driving an extensive inflammatory process with endotoxin,

has anyone ever noticed the amount of people on the Peat forum that report so many problems with dairy? they go back and forth like myself between their own belief and Peat's advice with dairy.

Now with all this being said i would like to say i 100% agree with Peat on dairy BUT, i think we should also think for ourselves like he says and let our own judgement pass on something uninfluenced by the words of others.

One thing we need to remember is Peat likely has access to the highest quality clean dairy products where as most of us are drinking the commercialized garbage thats been reported to have fecal contamination, aflatoxin, xenoestrogens, etc I could go on.

So with that being said should we really consume EXCESSIVE amounts of dairy if it is commercialized and possibly causing major issues and largely contributing to the inflammatory process.

Everywhere you look on the internet you see an association between dairy causing dysbiosis and leaky gut, and while a lot of stuff is just vegan propoganda, on the flip side, it's actually EXTREMELY difficult to find conclusive studies on dairy because the dairy industry is so powerful in terms of influencing the outcomes and words of these studies that cannot be denied.

Besides the M.A.P. species i mentioned there's been so many other pathogenic bacteria reported to be in milk and dairy products, and personally when i consume large amounts of commercialized dairy i feel like a big bag of bacterial overgrowth, just bad body odour poor skin, swollen gut etc.

I'm going to link a few studies / threads / articles that kind of sparked my interest and motivation to create this thread, let me know what you guys think,

i'd love to hear feedback and other peoples experiences with dairy,

basically i would really just like to discuss the extensive downsides to commercialized dairy vs organic and it's possible negative implications on human health specifically gut health and endotoxin,

considering us Peat followers on the forum are consuming more dairy than anyone else, i really think we should bring our heads together and discuss this because i feel like it needs to be addressed,

the fecal contamination, possible fungal spores, aflatoxin, bacteria plastics, xenoestrogens, pesticides etc. let's dig it all up!

Peat has actually mentioned this himself too is "organic" or local dairy is always best, i just feel he may not put enough of an emphasis on it, maybe these things about pathogenic bacteria in commercial dairy hasn't been brought to his attention much.

it's very difficult to find studies that will actually come out and state these implications of these negatives on human health, so i will post some of these links below, let me know what you guys think, let's take a much closer look at all the downsides to commercial dairy that doesn't get addressed much on here and discuss how it may or may not be affecting all of our health due to our mass consumption,

here's a conclusive quote from one of the studies,

"Unacceptable levels of Enterobacter spp. and Escherichia coli were found in most of the samples. Effective measures to ensure safe milk for human consumption such as the phosphatase test and methylene blue reduction test should be routinely performed on each batch of milk processed by dairy plants."

-Also note, some of these studies examine milk from different countries so it may not be all universal, however it still gives us a broad insight,

and last thing i want to mention, is Peat always says animals are essentially like detoxification systems, and that they inactivate most toxins to prevent them from reaching things like the milk, HOWEVER, we know that organisms that are not healthy do not have good detoxification capabilities, he said this with humans, any stress kills the enzymes needed to detoxify like the glucoronic acid pathway i think he mentioned,

So just imagine how unhealthy these animals are under immense amounts of psychological and physical stress, eating only grains and PUFA contaminated with aflatoxin, and living in their own feces essentially, i doubt these animals are very good at detoxifying really anything given their state and living situations,

it really seems like local or organic clean milk really may be the only option for improving health with dairy... at least from the way it's looking.

Fungi / Bacteria, Not Autoimmunity, Cause IBD (Chron's, UC) And IBS

Microbial Contamination in Milk Quality and Health Risk of the Consumers of Raw Milk and Dairy Products | IntechOpen

https://www.researchgate.net/public...cts_occurrence_and_recent_challenges_A_review

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308294887_Bacterial_Contamination_of_Dairy_Products

The microbial content of unexpired pasteurized milk from selected supermarkets in a developing country

https://www.researchgate.net/public...UCTS_A_CASE_STUDY_BACAU_DISTRICT_AREA_ROMANIA

You described exactly all my symptoms with milk to a tee, and no, they don't depend on milk quality.
I have them, especially the yellow face, even with grass fed A2 raw milk.

However, I keep craving it and drinking it

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

Have you ever thought of making a latte and seeing if your children preferred that?

My train of thought is the body knows best, but it has to be exposed to the all the options to know what it prefers. A child works within the environment they are raised in, but as they mature they are exposed to more and more foods and combinations and as a result the taste refines. I loved cereal as a kid because of the sugar and milk, but it took me 25 years to figure out that it wasn’t quite as good as removing the starch from the equation and putting in coffee!

I’ve often wondered if I were to have kids whether I would get them on coffee from their infancy. The child brain is hyperplastic, for good reason, but if given the option of making them even more precocious....why not?

I tried my Aunt's coffee when I was 7 and I found it delicious.

 

[Jib]

I seem to be doing much better on kefir. Initially I started making it again because plain milk was causing extreme gas/bloating when consumed in Peat quantities, and I'd made kefir for a few years a long time ago and already was familiar and comfortable with the process.

As far as bad bacteria go, it's very likely that the beneficial bacteria in kefir grains helps crowd out any potential bad guys. Not mention fermentation also produces vitamin K2, as an added bonus.

Milk kefir: composition, microbial cultures, biological activities, and related products

"Kefir acts against the pathogenic bacteria Salmonella, Helicobacter, Shigella, Staphylococcus, Escherichia coli, Enterobacter aerogenes, Proteus vulgaris, Bacillus subtilis, Micrococcus luteus, Listeria monocytogenes, Streptococcus pyrogenes, (Lopitz et al., 2006), Streptococcus faecalis KR6, Fusarium graminearum CZ1 (Ismaiel et al., 2011), and the fungus Candida albicans. On the other hand, it has been demonstrated that a mixture of kefir isolated bacteria and yeast is able to prevent diarrhea and enterocolitis triggered by Clostridium difficile (Bolla et al., 2013).

...kefir showed good efficacy in inhibiting spore formation and aflatoxin B1 produced by the fungus Aspergillus flavus, which is a toxic compound formed either in the field or during food storage. Therefore, kefir appears as a promising safe alternative natural food preservative offering protection against intoxication with aflatoxin B1"

Mycobacterium Avium Subsp. Paratuberculosis Survival During Fermentation of Soured Milk Products Detected by Culture and Quantitative Real Time PCR Methods - PubMed

We herein confirm that MAP can survive pH reduction, however, longer exposure to pH below 4 in SMP [Sour Milk Products] seems to be critical because it inhibits growth. Therefore, it is suggested that probiotic cultures that can decrease pH below 4 during fermentation could provide better inactivation of MAP in SMP.

That study was referenced here:

Mycobacterium avium subsp. paratuberculosis – An Overview of the Publications from 2011 to 2016

(punch the link into Sci Hub for full access)

The presence of probiotic cultures led to a reduction in MAP numbers in fermented milk products.

Anyway. Enjoying kefir lately and seem to tolerate it much better than plain milk. It's possible it makes it 'safer' as well, although many people here are drinking a ton of plain milk with no issues, and have been doing so for years. Individual tolerance is definitely a thing, and for many reasons.

 

[thomas00]

selected herbivore-microbiome.

That sounds like complete fiction.

Again, Masai. Lapp people. Inhabitants of the caucuses. They never had any of these problems supposedly caused by dairy.

Which is why words like 'seems like' are being used, and personal observations based on personal browsings from a few internet forums.