John McDougall Looks Awful

[ShotTrue]

Indeed.

Effect of Testosterone Treatment on Body Composition and Muscle Strength in Men Over 65 Years of Age 1
As men age, serum testosterone concentrations decrease, the percentage of body mass that is fat increases, the percentage of lean body mass decreases, and muscle strength decreases. Because these changes are similar to those that occur in hypogonadal men, we hypothesized that increasing the serum testosterone concentration of men over 65 yr of age to that in young men would decrease their fat mass, increase their lean mass, and increase their muscle strength.

We randomized 108 men over 65 yr of age to wear either a testosterone patch or a placebo patch in a double blind study for 36 months. We measured body composition by dual energy x-ray absorptiometry and muscle strength by dynamometer before and during treatment. Ninety-six men completed the entire 36-month protocol.

Fat mass decreased (−3.0 ± 0.5 kg) in the testosterone-treated men during the 36 months of treatment, which was significantly different (P = 0.001) from the decrease (−0.7± 0.5 kg) in the placebo-treated men. Lean mass increased (1.9 ± 0.3 kg) in the testosterone-treated men, which was significantly different (P < 0.001) from that (0.2 ± 0.2 kg) in the placebo-treated men. The decrease in fat mass in the testosterone-treated men was principally in the arms (−0.7 ± 0.1 kg; P < 0.001 compared to the placebo group) and legs (−1.1 ± 0.2 kg; P < 0.001), and the increase in lean mass was principally in the trunk (1.9 ± 0.3 kg; P < 0.001). The change in strength of knee extension and flexion at 60° and 180° angular velocity during treatment, however, was not significantly different between the two groups.

We conclude that increasing the serum testosterone concentrations of normal men over 65 yr of age to the midnormal range for young men decreased fat mass, principally in the arms and legs, and increased lean mass, principally in the trunk, but did not increase the strength of knee extension and flexion, as measured by dynamometer.

Says the guy with high T but stomach fat
I could look it up, but it would be just as much work if you did

 

[ShotTrue]

Indeed.

Effect of Testosterone Treatment on Body Composition and Muscle Strength in Men Over 65 Years of Age 1
As men age, serum testosterone concentrations decrease, the percentage of body mass that is fat increases, the percentage of lean body mass decreases, and muscle strength decreases. Because these changes are similar to those that occur in hypogonadal men, we hypothesized that increasing the serum testosterone concentration of men over 65 yr of age to that in young men would decrease their fat mass, increase their lean mass, and increase their muscle strength.

We randomized 108 men over 65 yr of age to wear either a testosterone patch or a placebo patch in a double blind study for 36 months. We measured body composition by dual energy x-ray absorptiometry and muscle strength by dynamometer before and during treatment. Ninety-six men completed the entire 36-month protocol.

Fat mass decreased (−3.0 ± 0.5 kg) in the testosterone-treated men during the 36 months of treatment, which was significantly different (P = 0.001) from the decrease (−0.7± 0.5 kg) in the placebo-treated men. Lean mass increased (1.9 ± 0.3 kg) in the testosterone-treated men, which was significantly different (P < 0.001) from that (0.2 ± 0.2 kg) in the placebo-treated men. The decrease in fat mass in the testosterone-treated men was principally in the arms (−0.7 ± 0.1 kg; P < 0.001 compared to the placebo group) and legs (−1.1 ± 0.2 kg; P < 0.001), and the increase in lean mass was principally in the trunk (1.9 ± 0.3 kg; P < 0.001). The change in strength of knee extension and flexion at 60° and 180° angular velocity during treatment, however, was not significantly different between the two groups.

We conclude that increasing the serum testosterone concentrations of normal men over 65 yr of age to the midnormal range for young men decreased fat mass, principally in the arms and legs, and increased lean mass, principally in the trunk, but did not increase the strength of knee extension and flexion, as measured by dynamometer.

What I read wasn’t a study done in men over the age of 65 with impaired testes, or obese men.
I haven’t seen it in a long time but it was healthy young men and they gained 1% body fat. I think this was in regards to steroid levels (above natural levels) not a replacement dose for low natural levels

 

[matisvijs]

What I read wasn’t a study done in men over the age of 65 with impaired testes, or obese men.
I haven’t seen it in a long time but it was healthy young men and they gained 1% body fat. I think this was in regards to steroid levels (above natural levels) not a replacement dose for low natural levels

Not to be rude but you sure it was 1% body fat not 1% midsection/stomach fat? I would readily buy that as in these T supplementation studies the bodyfat is mostly lost on arms and legs and it is well known that high-T males deposit their excess fat around midsection rather than butt or thighs. Radically increasing testosterone would surely have that change in fat disposition, even if your total level of BF% goes down. Not saying you're wrong or anything, just fascinated about this.

 

[ShotTrue]

Not to be rude but you sure it was 1% body fat not 1% midsection/stomach fat? I would readily buy that as in these T supplementation studies the bodyfat is mostly lost on arms and legs and it is well known that high-T males deposit their excess fat around midsection rather than butt or thighs. Radically increasing testosterone would surely have that change in fat disposition, even if your total level of BF% goes down. Not saying you're wrong or anything, just fascinated about this.

Oh ok. If I'm remembering right about the 1% number, i'm pretty sure it said total bf and not specifically abdominal. It may have been a study where they 4 groups, 1 no weight raining no steroid, 2. weights but no steroids, 3. steroids no weights, and 4. steroids and weights. It was an interesting study because the men who injected testerone and didn't exercise still built more muscle mass than the men weight training without steroids.
It may have been that study or somewhere else but I remember reading something like that and it sticking in my mind. Perhaps my point ins't valid as it pertains in above normal, steroid dose of testosterone

 

[matisvijs]

Oh ok. If I'm remembering right about the 1% number, i'm pretty sure it said total bf and not specifically abdominal. It may have been a study where they 4 groups, 1 no weight raining no steroid, 2. weights but no steroids, 3. steroids no weights, and 4. steroids and weights. It was an interesting study because the men who injected testerone and didn't exercise still built more muscle mass than the men weight training without steroids.
It may have been that study or somewhere else but I remember reading something like that and it sticking in my mind. Perhaps my point ins't valid as it pertains in above normal, steroid dose of testosterone

Found this study on healthy men. Didn't read the whole thing, just the section on changes in fat mass. They randomized healthy men into 25mg, 50mg, 300mg and 600mg per week of testosterone enanthate. The trick is however that they co-administered a a long-acting GnRH agonist, which pretty much completely shuts down your endogenous production of testosterone. So they found - body fat levels in the 300mg/week and 600mg/week groups went down, however BF went up in the 25mg/week and 50mg/week groups. What this means though is what I initially thought - increased testosterone = decreased BF%, decreased testosterone = increased BF%. People probably just looked at the 25 and 50 groups and thought that it was supplemented on top of natural production, without understanding that they co-administered a substance that shuts down your natural production. A man that naturally produces 25mg/week would be considered hypogonadal and if we factor in that in the case of supplementing an ester not all of the amount becomes active, then the poor dudes in the study had to live with a testosterone level that was even lower than that. 300 and 600 groups obviously were given doses that exceed physiological amounts so the fact that they had no/very minimal endogenous production didn't affect them and as a result, they lost body fat.

 

[baccheion]

I have high testosterone but I still have a bit of a paunch.

What about other results (DHT, estradiol, cortisol, SHBG, etc)?

 

[ecstatichamster]

What about other results (DHT, estradiol, cortisol, SHBG, etc)?

I don’t know.

I feel good and am healthy and do everything I want to do. I don’t worry about blood tests too much. Not in a hurry to get another.

 

[baccheion]

I don’t know.

I feel good and am healthy and do everything I want to do. I don’t worry about blood tests too much. Not in a hurry to get another.

It was mainly to add to my own awareness (ie, see what correlates to what).

 

[ecstatichamster]

It was mainly to add to my own awareness (ie, see what correlates to what).

I wish I could fill you in. I agree it would be interesting.

I believe there are "types" of people. Our phenotypes fall into buckets.

There is the lean guy who can't gain weight.

There is the aging guy with the pot belly, most of whom are unhealthy.

Etc.

Good to keep in mind.

 

[ilikecats]

I don't think the view of a low body fat percentage in men being aesthetically pleasing is anything new or unnatural....

from the early 1500s

from around 440 BCE

 

[yerrag]

Waiting to see someone posting the old world Greek idea of beauty personified in the goddess Venus.

 

[tara]

Waiting to see someone posting the old world Greek idea of beauty personified in the goddess Venus.

How about the older Venus of Willendorf?
Venus of Willendorf - Wikipedia

 

[yerrag]

How about the older Venus of Willendorf?
Venus of Willendorf - Wikipedia

Those were the good old days of plenty! Living in the land of milk and honey lol

 

[Goobz]

I don't think the view of a low body fat percentage in men being aesthetically pleasing is anything new or unnatural....

from the early 1500s

from around 440 BCE

Lol yep my thoughts exactly.

"Abs were invented in the 80s" - people on the internet say the darndest things!

 

[ecstatichamster]

Remember those are teenage boy statues.

 

[RPDiciple]

I dont know.. I have had the same question. I also dont feel good about myself unless I can visibly see my abs. It's a personal preference, and isn't influenced by others as I dont care what others think. I also find that red light, thyroid, DHEA, coffee, etc...... also have a much more noticeable effect when I'm leaner. At +20% bodyfat I can take 100mg of progesterone and notice nothing, but at 10-12% body fat even 9mg is very noticeable.

Interesting. What brands of dhea and progesterone do you use?

 

[Regina]

Here's my great grandparents, Grandpa 95, Grandma 93
Both eat/ate out of his garden most of their lives ( berries, carrots, potatoes, greens) he drank orange juice every day with breakfast, coffee, venison, milk, cheese. Neither smoke, he has occasional Brandy.

View attachment 13498 View attachment 13499

they look wonderful!

 

[tca300]

Interesting. What brands of dhea and progesterone do you use?

Purebulk for DHEA, and Healthnatura progesterone. But I dont use them 99% of the time.

 

[MetabolicTrash]

He doesn't look really bad or anything, but I think I've seen guys that age or even older who don't look nearly as "worn" you could say (not saying this in a bad tone/sense).

But since people here are saying higher bodyfat helps with old age -- that might be true in some ways. Since as you get older your body is bound to get noticeably weaker (most people at least begin to notice this at age 60-70 or under), extra ATP/energy is bound to help you. But this isn't to say that being overweight is healthy because it helps you survive longer -- it's more like an "add-on" that can benefit some people I guess. I say this because people I've known and known of who were obese have died fairly young of heart attacks and cancer and etc. For this reason I can't just assume "heavier = healthier" flat out (old or young) -- and still believe being somewhat in the near-lean area at most is the best overall for males/females. Just because some peoples' 'X' amount of fat in some circumstances is helping keep them alive in a more indirect way despite the many other negative implications of obesity/diet and such doesn't mean they're actually healthy overall in my view.

What about older people who are leaner and have some more muscle mass? They weigh more and it doesn't have to be mostly fat providing the ATP. Of course with extra bodyweight there's a good chance of extra muscle too (someone carrying themselves around and such that's heavier is possibly stronger or at least has a pinch more muscle in some areas probably than an equivalent, skinnier person with the same exercise/diet is bound to).

I know this isn't or shouldn't be an excuse to just jump on the idea that being overweight is better by design, rather than by it benefiting in certain circumstances. Leaner people can exercise and have ATP from more muscle efficiency and several other factors like in healthy older people you may have seen that exercise still and remain active, as opposed to a larger portion of elderly that tend to be very inactive. Also, does living longer by itself mean healthy? I'm pretty sure that healthy people can die young from some rare or unfortunate health circumstances -- and some unhealthy people can seemingly live for long times due to the same factors reversed. For example, someone healthy who develops some abrupt, genetic disease can die without adequate resources -- and some unhealthy live to 90 or so by constantly having cancer treatments/tumor removal/endless drugs/stents/bypasses/organ transplants/pacemakers/etc. -- you name it. I don't look at someone old and think, "Must be healthy because they're alive." There are old, obese, low activity, bitter/unhappy people who somehow manage even with PUFA-laden galore and endless other bad diet/lifestyle/etc. choices.

 

[AlphaCog]

Vegan + Steroids the answer?