Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

Amazoniac

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I am indeed Human.

There are many inconsistencies here.

such as: The Adverse Effects of Alcohol on Vitamin A Metabolism

It seems that the true path to retinol destruction is whiskey. So we would assume that alcoholics have very low rates of auto immunity right? Yet things are unclear, even in that paper.

So lots of things need explaining eventually.
Given what you know, why you didn't skip the poison nonsense and moved the conversation to questioning these inconsistencies? No need for arrogance.
 

Tarmander

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Given what you know, why you didn't skip the poison nonsense and moved the conversation to questioning these inconsistencies? No need for arrogance.
When are there not inconsistencies? We have been discussing the ones involved with Ray for years. What arrogance? I do not see much arrogance, maybe in one or two here and there. I think most admit this is an experiment that is working very well, but people are open to new explanations when they come forth.
 

Amazoniac

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When are there not inconsistencies? We have been discussing the ones involved with Ray for years. What arrogance? I do not see much arrogance, maybe in one or two here and there. I think most admit this is an experiment that is working very well, but people are open to new explanations when they come forth.
No, I mean, being more inquisitive without arrogance (you were not, I'm just stressing that questioning doesn't require such tone). There are inconsistencies elsewhere, but touching on them makes the discussion productive.
 

LLight

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- Anti-Peat - Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity
⮤ [23] Control of oxidative phosphorylation by vitamin A illuminates a fundamental role in mitochondrial energy homoeostasis

"The physiology of two metabolites of vitamin A is understood in substantial detail: poisonaldehyde functions as the universal chromophore in the vertebrate and invertebrate eye; poisonoic acid regulates a set of vertebrate transcription factors, the poisonoic acid receptor superfamily. The third member of this retinoid triumvirate is poisonol. While functioning as the precursor of retinaldehyde and retinoic acid, a growing body of evidence suggests a far more fundamental role for retinol in signal transduction. Here we show that retinol is essential for the metabolic fitness of mitochondria. When cells were deprived of retinol, respiration and ATP synthesis defaulted to basal levels. They recovered to significantly higher energy output as soon as retinol was restored to physiological concentration, without the need for metabolic conversion to other retinoids. Retinol emerged as an essential cofactor of protein kinase C (PKC), without which this enzyme failed to be activated in mitochondria. Furthermore, retinol needed to physically bind PKC, because mutation of the retinol binding site rendered PKC unresponsive to Rol, while retaining responsiveness to phorbol ester. The PKC/retinol complex signaled the pyruvate dehydrogenase complex for enhanced flux of pyruvate into the Krebs cycle. The baseline response was reduced in vitamin A-deficient lecithin:retinol acyl transferase-knockout mice, but this was corrected within 3 h by intraperitoneal injection of vitamin A; this suggests that vitamin A is physiologically important. These results illuminate a hitherto unsuspected role of vitamin A in mitochondrial bioenergetics of mammals, acting as a nutritional sensor. As such, retinol is of fundamental importance for energy homeostasis. The data provide a mechanistic explanation to the nearly 100-yr-old question of why vitamin A deficiency causes so many pathologies that are independent of retinoic acid action."

"The accumulated evidence presented in Figs. 1–4 indicates the existence of a signal pathway anchored by the complex of PKCd and retinol that controls pyruvate utilization by the PDH complex. The capacity of retinol to prime PKCd for activation by redox action is strongly supported by the evidence that retinol must be present in the medium and must physically bind PKCd. Mutation of the retinol binding sites located in the zinc-finger domains (39) silences the PKCd signal pathway. Of considerable interest, although at first glance counterintuitive, is the lack of selectivity of PKC for retinoids, allowing several natural retinol metabolites to act as coactivators as well. Their binding was predictable because the affinity of PKCd zinc-finger domains for retinol, retinoic acid, and anhydroretinol was known to be similar in magnitude (7). However, functional selectivity is established by bioavailability, retinol being the only retinoid systemically available at the concentration needed to drive PKCd activation. Retinol circulates in plasma at a constant concentration of 1 to 2 uM, matching the effective dose of 2 uM required for PKC coactivation. Other retinoids (e.g., retinoic acid) circulate at concentrations 3 orders of magnitude lower or not at all (anhydroretinol and retinal) (40). Further evidence that retinol is active in the PKCd signal path, regardless of whether other retinoids can mimic retinol in pharmacological experiments, was the responses of isolated mitochondria in short-term experiments when reaction times were too brief to permit appreciable metabolism of retinol. In fact, no metabolites were detected in isolated mitochondria or MEFs incubated for 15 min with retinol (Fig. 2B). It is also important to recall that retinol functions as a survival factor (26, 41). In contrast, despite initial stimulation of the PDH complex, the exposure of cells to anhydroretinol for longer than 2 h causes a fatal energy crisis (13)."

"Bioenergetics is fundamental to all cells (46). In view of this tenet, it is puzzling why metabolic regulation by the pathway described in this report depends on retinol that vertebrates cannot synthesize de novo. In limiting vitamin A to nutritional sources, there must be an evolutionary advantage of such import as to override the physiological needs for vitamin A in vision and retinoic acid-dependent transcription. The answer may lie in the scenario that finite amounts of vitamin A are subject to depletion during periods of severe starvation when an organism is forced to conserve energy. Our observation that in the absence of vitamin A energy generation by respiration adapts downwards appears relevant in this context. Accumulation of triglycerides in the livers of vitamin A-deficient mice (47) may also signify a metabolic switch to fat for energy generation to offset limited utilization of pyruvate from glycolytic sources. It is also predictable that chronic deviations of vitamin A transport will lead to metabolic disease. Recent observations that the circulating levels of retinol binding protein 4, the major transporter of vitamin A in plasma, are elevated in obesity illuminate this point (48)."​

Not bad for a toxin.

@postman, if it was possible to extract all poisonoids and the PUFAs that you have in mind from the body, knowing that your dietary intake was going to be null afterwards for one of them, which would you pick? In the worst case of both being toxic, with those oils you can at least compensate with synthesis.

--
- Infection and Autoimmunity: Chapter 10. Infection, Autoimmunity, and Vitamin D (Marshall alert)

"The standard of care for most autoimmune and inflammatory conditions is immunosuppression. Commonly used immunosuppressive treatments include corticosteroids, methotrexate, and tumor necrosis factor-Diokine antagonists. While these therapeutic options often provide short-term symptom palliation, they have poor long-term associations with stability and relapse. Indeed, no definitive studies have identified corticosteroids capable of enhancing long-term prognosis or reducing mortality rates. For example, Gottlieb et al. reported that in sarcoidosis, steroid use leads to relapse and contributes to prolongation of disease by delaying resolution.[54] To date there have been nearly 150 clinical trials testing prospective agents designed to block inflammation in patients with sepsis, and all have failed.[55]"

"Most immunosuppressive medications were developed to slow what is historically believed to be an overactive immune response [might be]. However, as the inflammation and autoantibodies associated with these conditions are becoming increasingly tied to infection, the efficacy of these drugs must be reexamined. By slowing the immune response, immunosuppressive medications cause a decrease in inflammation and cytokine release. While this decrease in inflammation may allow a patient to feel better in the short term, the immune system may well become compromised to a point where it can no longer correctly maintain microbiome homeostasis. This exacerbates the underlying disease state and leaves patients more vulnerable to the acquisition of new pathogens."​

--
The claim that there's no 'global immunosuppression' is repeated here:
- The Science Behind The Coimbra Protocol

In addition to its key role in transcription regulation, the VDR also lies at the heart of the human innate immune response. It expresses TLR2, which allows the immune system to recognize bacterial polysaccharides. In addition, it regulates expression of the cathelicidin and b-antimicrobial peptides (AMPs), which play vital roles in targeting intracellular pathogens.
Thus, any microbe capable of dysregulating VDR activity would significantly disable the innate immune response, facilitating its persistence. Indeed, several of the pathogens most often linked to inflammatory disease have in fact evolved to survive in exactly this fashion.

And that's why dry fasting might be useful:
Osmolality controls the expression of cathelicidin antimicrobial peptide in human macrophages

Here we present the surprising finding that osmolality tightly controls the expression of cathelicidin antimicrobial peptide (CAMP) in human macrophages. CAMP expression is strongly upregulated under hyperosmotic conditions and downregulated under hypoosmotic conditions.
 

gaze

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great interview. While it’s enjoyable to discuss what’s right and wrong on this forum, let’s all agree on this. It is quite amazing and often times underrated how a man destined to die according to doctors took responsibility for his own life and saved himself. Time and time again, cases like this occur and every time I’m mixed with feelings of amazement and anger at our medical system. While some make it out, 99% of people told by doctors that “you’re screwed”, give up, and accept their fate. When will people wake up out of this dogmatic thinking that if there isn’t a drug for a certain symptom, all hope is lost. it’s a sad to see so many people suffer. Anyway, I’m glad Grant cured himself, and while his theory may be completely missing the point on how it worked, it doesn’t change the fact that he’s alive when doctors told him he wouldn’t be.
 
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Tarmander

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great interview. While it’s enjoyable to discuss what’s right and wrong on this forum, let’s all agree on this. It is quite amazing and often times underrated how a man destined to die according to doctors took responsibility for his own life and saved himself. Time and time again, cases like this occur and every time I’m mixed with feelings of amazement and anger at our medical system. While some make it out, 99% of people told by doctors that your files, give up, and accept their fate. When will people wake up out of this dogmatic thinking that if there isn’t a drug for a certain symptom, all hope is lost. it’s a sad to see so many people suffer. Anyway, I’m glad Grant cured himself, and while his theory may be completely missing the point on how it worked, it doesn’t change the fact that he’s alive when doctors told him he wouldn’t be.
Indeed. This is the best part and what makes him so credible. At the end, in his summary, he says maybe it's not vitamin A and some combination of other toxins, still the diet will work. But for now, it is amazing how closely vitamin A intake and these symptoms ride together.
 

Blossom

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great interview. While it’s enjoyable to discuss what’s right and wrong on this forum, let’s all agree on this. It is quite amazing and often times underrated how a man destined to die according to doctors took responsibility for his own life and saved himself. Time and time again, cases like this occur and every time I’m mixed with feelings of amazement and anger at our medical system. While some make it out, 99% of people told by doctors that your files, give up, and accept their fate. When will people wake up out of this dogmatic thinking that if there isn’t a drug for a certain symptom, all hope is lost. it’s a sad to see so many people suffer. Anyway, I’m glad Grant cured himself, and while his theory may be completely missing the point on how it worked, it doesn’t change the fact that he’s alive when doctors told him he wouldn’t be.
I agree. His story is inspiring and it could be his determination and desire to prove his theory has actually saved his life. Our belief and will are very powerful but something he has done has taken a burden off his kidneys.
 

Energyforlife

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Hello everyone,

I wonder about how to eat to have great energy.
I tried almost all diets (paleo, carnivore, frugivore, ...) without success.
I am currently trying feeding based on the advice of Ray Peat.
I have read some testimonials of experience with Grant's positive vitamin A.
I was wondering if it could solve problems of baldness, fungal infections on the toes and crotch, odor and yellow perspiration, eyes with red lines in the whites of the eyes, ...
I read that some had had results on the hair but after I did not read more.

Is there a Facebook group on the community following the low vitamin A diet?
 

Tarmander

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Hello everyone,

I wonder about how to eat to have great energy.
I tried almost all diets (paleo, carnivore, frugivore, ...) without success.
I am currently trying feeding based on the advice of Ray Peat.
I have read some testimonials of experience with Grant's positive vitamin A.
I was wondering if it could solve problems of baldness, fungal infections on the toes and crotch, odor and yellow perspiration, eyes with red lines in the whites of the eyes, ...
I read that some had had results on the hair but after I did not read more.

Is there a Facebook group on the community following the low vitamin A diet?

Read ggenereux.blog

Friend on facebook Garrett Smith
 

Energyforlife

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I just want to know if it could work.

I have already done a lot of diet I am tired of searching, paying, ...

I'm just wondering if you think it can solve my skin problems and fatigue.

Rice, beef, black beans, water. If I understood correctly.
 

Amazoniac

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It shouldn't come as a surprise that the body mounts antibodies against venom D as well:

- Vitamin D Binding Protein, Total and Free Vitamin D Levels in Different Physiological and Pathophysiological Conditions

"Vitamin D binding protein (DBP) is the key transport protein which, along with albumin, binds over 99% of the circulating vitamin D metabolites."

"In normal individuals, ~85% of circulating vitamin D metabolites are bound to DBP. Albumin binds ~15% of these metabolites and does so with much lower affinity. Approximately 0.4% of total 1,25(OH)2D3 and 0.03% of total 25OHD3 are free in serum from normal non-pregnant individuals."​

- Antiinflammatory Action Of Oral Baking Soda

great interview. While it’s enjoyable to discuss what’s right and wrong on this forum, let’s all agree on this. It is quite amazing and often times underrated how a man destined to die according to doctors took responsibility for his own life and saved himself. Time and time again, cases like this occur and every time I’m mixed with feelings of amazement and anger at our medical system. While some make it out, 99% of people told by doctors that “you’re screwed”, give up, and accept their fate. When will people wake up out of this dogmatic thinking that if there isn’t a drug for a certain symptom, all hope is lost. it’s a sad to see so many people suffer. Anyway, I’m glad Grant cured himself, and while his theory may be completely missing the point on how it worked, it doesn’t change the fact that he’s alive when doctors told him he wouldn’t be.
These are nice words. It's indeed remarkable, along with the fact that he's doing fine in spite of the avoidance and Tarmander sounding human.
 

Tarmander

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I just want to know if it could work.

I have already done a lot of diet I am tired of searching, paying, ...

I'm just wondering if you think it can solve my skin problems and fatigue.

Rice, beef, black beans, water. If I understood correctly.
and salt.
 

mrchibbs

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Amazoniac

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@Yi at LDT, it would be cool to leave a menu available for your friends; one contaminated option and other clean. If you don't want to record them, you can weigh each before and after a while. You'd have to exclude the first moves because it can be just curiosity. Having the bowl fixed and surrounded by a clear area is also a good idea to grasp if there wased spill owa. The toxin has to be purified to remove confounders, I don't know what's preferable (poisonoids or carottenoids, possibly the first), but depending on the conditions, they might start to degrade.

- Nutrient Requirements of the Mouse - Nutrient Requirements of Laboratory Animals - NCBI Bookshelf

The other oily vitamins require more consideration.

It must not lead to anything impressive, but probably more interesting than waiting for a severe depletion that will never come.
 
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Amazoniac

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Table 1.

"Rats and mice are used in many areas of scientific research, including the study of carotenoids. Specific applications for these species include cancer studies (Sato et al. 1997, Thompson et al. 1993) and studies evaluating immune function (Bendich and Shapiro 1986, Jyonouchi et al. 1994). These rodents are well characterized and there are many strains, including knock-outs and transgenics available that have been established as models for many of the diseases epidemiologically associated with carotenoid intake. However, rats and mice absorb carotenoids differently than humans; thus extrapolation of data to humans must be done with caution.

Rats have been used extensively (Biesalski and Weiser 1993, Grolier et al. 1995, Mittal 1983) to evaluate the efficiency of βC conversion to VA by monitoring changes in liver VA stores. Rats are high efficiency converters of βC to VA at the level of the enterocyte (Fig. 1, step 4). Therefore, they do not readily absorb carotenoids intact (Fig. 1, step 5).

If fed diets containing supraphysiologic levels of carotenoids (≥0.02% of diet), rats can absorb a variety of carotenoids including βC (Krinsky et al. 1990, Ribaya-Mercado et al. 1989, Warmer et al. 1985), canthaxanthin and lycopene (Mathews-Roth et al. 1990), and accumulate βC in tissues in a dose-dependent manner (Shapiro et al. 1984). (When normalized for body weight, feeding βC at 0.02% of diet is equivalent to a 70-kg person eating 163 carrots per day.) This is in contrast to humans, who absorb small, physiologic doses of a variety of carotenoids, including βC, intact.

Rats and mice may not be the most appropriate models for studying carotenoid absorption and bioavailability, but rats are a desirable model with which to study the effects of VA deficiency. Dietary restriction of VA and βC in rats causes a rapid depletion of hepatic VA stores (28–33 d) and the onset of clinical VA deficiency (35 d) (Corey and Hayes 1972, Gardner and Ross 1993). A second-generation model has also been developed in this species, resulting in more rapid development of VA deficiency, (Gardner and Ross 1993, Roodenburg et al. 1995).

Despite shortcomings, rodents are used extensively to evaluate the effect of dietary carotenoids on the development of cancer (Moon 1989, Nagasawa et al. 1995, Narisawa et al. 1996 and 1998, , Schwartz and Shklar 1987, Youping et al. 1997) and immune function (Bendich 1989, Bendich and Shapiro 1986, Jyonouchi et al. 1994, Lingen et al. 1959, Rosales and Ross 1998). Generally, high levels of dietary carotenoids are fed in these studies to achieve adequate tissue levels. Therefore, relevance to humans must be considered with caution."
 

Richiebogie

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From back in May on page 242, @sugarbabe discussed the carnivore success of Charlene Andersen...

I agree on not copying an extreme diet. From the sound of her health problems it seems as though vitamin A may have been the poison.

"My list of health conditions grew: eczema all over my hands (to the point of second degree burns), tinnitus, worsening depression, worsening fatigue (fell asleep at work all the time, at meetings, at church, and driving a car), lower back/pelvic and sciatic nerve pain (couldn’t sit at all, worked standing up, constant pain with occasional howling-pain spasms; MRI revealed degenerative disc disease in 3 areas), systemic edema, blurry vision (eyeglasses were worn beginning in high school, worsening every year), paralyzation at times in hands and feet working its way into my torso (Joe had to be called to carry me out of work several times), allergies/sensitivities to all things (food, pollens, chemicals), continued amenhorrea, weight gain (at my heaviest 50 pounds overweight), inability to concentrate (couldn’t understand a sentence spoken to me in time to hear the next in a conversation), diagnosed with cervical dysplasia (treated with cryotherapy), migraines, heart pains, indigestion/reflux, bingeing (and at the end, vomiting – luckily only a few times), muscle twitching (over 100 twitches in 1-minute’s time), lumps in my breasts I was too afraid to have checked out, and one of the last but most difficult for everyone around me was my irritation and rage (a complete reversal of my laid back and sweet nature everyone knew me to have growing up)."

She also had cystic acne.

"I also started unmasking the low carb foods (vegetation especially), which would send me into terrible fatigue spells."

"As SOON as I switched to animal fat as my fat source instead of “healthy” oils, I ovulated and had a period two weeks later. I couldn’t believe it!!!"

"We experimented with pork only to find that it activated symptoms. Ground meats, no matter what type also did."

"I grew up loving organ meats, but as I started unmasking foods (especially when I gave up all vegetation), I noticed inflammation with organ meats. My body didn’t tolerate them well. So, I listened as I did with everything else. I know organs have mega doses of nutrients, but ribeye has just what I need in the perfect amounts."

"Sunshine and getting outside helped a lot through the “die off” period. "

"Growing up and in my early 20s I ate a “healthy diet” of low fat, lean meats, LOTS of veggies, whole fruit, legumes, nuts/seeds, low-fat yogurt, and whole grains."

"1) Cheeses and eggs – both produced massive migraine headaches that lasted, along with other symptoms like digestive issues, eczema flare-ups, and fatigue to name a few."

"For the first year or so going all meat, Joe and I ate nothing but grass fed/finished. Eventually, we developed nutritional deficiency symptoms. We made the switch to grass fed/grain finished (grain finished for the last 2-3 weeks of their life). Immediately we felt better and have never gone back to grass finished beef."

"It took some time, but over a year of grass fed/finished, Joe and I developed tendencies toward bleeding (gums or quick to bleed when scraped), previous injuries-sores/bruises Joe had started reappearing, both of us were easily bruised, and a few conditions that had reversed initially for me started to come back gradually (poor sleep and restless leg mainly, so not my most critical symptoms, but conditions not to be unnoticed). We did notice a shift toward being more irritated and more fatigued (not as mentally sharp or physically strong). These last two issues are markers I always look for whenever we are testing something."

Charlene Andersen - Meat Heals
ETA there are stories on her blog about carnivore and a lot of the symptoms all seem to have something in common!

Yes the facts that Charlene Andersen could not handle eggs & cheese, and she found grass-finished beef was worse than grain-finished beef, and she improved with sunshine does suggest carotenoids and retinoids caused her problems!

Perhaps she would do even better with some low carotenoid glucose sources like rice, potato, apple and banana replacing some of her beef and beef fat...?
 

Richiebogie

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the only person who looks in ill health is the bald, bloated, red-faced and eyebrowless affluent westerner reporting on their situation.

A few people have commented on thin eyebrows and the missing outer third of the eyebrows being a sign of poor health.

However both of these are likely due to grooming. Shaved heads and thick eyebrows are a bit too contrasting for example.
 

Cirion

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and she improved with sunshine

I think people in general have both a sunlight and vitamin G deficiency (grounding, aka nature deficiency). In fact I am starting to wonder if that's actually the source of alot of peoples' problems (not just VA toxicity). How many here are truthfully getting a lot of sun and VG? I can't say I am, but it's something I want to work on. Is it really a VA toxicity problem or a sunlight/nature deficiency problem in that case?
 

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