Higher Altitude - Greater Depression/Suicide

[Pufas Shmoofas]

The Chilling Mystery of High-Altitude Suicides

U.S. counties above 4,000 feet have twice the suicides as counties at 2,000 feet. Is it because there's less oxygen in the air, or is something else going on?

The Chilling Mystery of High-Altitude Suicides

 

[PurpleHeart]

I don't think oxygen or CO2 has anything to do with it people living in small towns on mountains where it gets lonely usually end up drinking out of loneliness and boredom or doing drugs etc. plus a million other things that epidemiological studies can't possibly consider.

 

[Light]

Really interesting.
I just came across this quote regarding living in altitude:
"This method ("Live High Train Low") avoids inherent problems associated with permanent residence at altitudes such as limited training load in the oxygen-deficient air, muscle loss, immune system suppression, advanced dehydration and excessive fatigue."
I'm really surprised as I thought all of those things improved in altitude,
and now adding to that your post @Pufas Shmoofas , it really paints a new picture.
I would really like to know what @haidut has to say about this,
or anyone else who knows.

 

[NathanK]

I was recently surprised to learn Colorado is crazy high. The men there 3x more likely than women. Teens are twice as likely as the rest of the country. This is absurd and rates have skyrocketing the past 5-10 years
Suicides in Colorado: 2017 Trends
Why Are Colorado Suicides Up 34 Percent?
Colorado teen suicide rate nearly twice national average

 

[rei]

I don't think anyone has ever said that altitude camp or training chamber is relaxing.

 

[akgrrrl]

I don't think anyone has ever said that altitude camp or training chamber is relaxing.

The Chilling Mystery of High-Altitude Suicides

U.S. counties above 4,000 feet have twice the suicides as counties at 2,000 feet. Is it because there's less oxygen in the air, or is something else going on?

The Chilling Mystery of High-Altitude Suicides

Yikes this is really interesting. I just moved to an area with low emfs, low chemtrails, and local farmers markets to reduce my exlosure of glysophates. 9,100 ft and acclimation is a b****. Hoped I was making lots of new red blood cells, and the stressfree job would lead me to a new healthier segment. Now I am not so sure.

 

[Light]

Yikes this is really interesting. I just moved to an area with low emfs, low chemtrails, and local farmers markets to reduce my exlosure of glysophates. 9,100 ft and acclimation is a b****. Hoped I was making lots of new red blood cells, and the stressfree job would lead me to a new healthier segment. Now I am not so sure.

In yesterday's podcast with Danny Roddy,at around 01:12:30, haidut talked about this:



Basically most of the negative effects take place when there isn't gradual acclimatization, and he offers some remedies - B1, Niacineamide, Methylene Blue.In the long run, the effects seem to be very positive, and combined with all the other changes you say you've made, it sounds like you're in a good place.

 

[akgrrrl]

In yesterday's podcast with Danny Roddy,at around 01:12:30, haidut talked about this:



Basically most of the negative effects take place when there isn't gradual acclimatization, and he offers some remedies - B1, Niacineamide, Methylene Blue.In the long run, the effects seem to be very positive, and combined with all the other changes you say you've made, it sounds like you're in a good place.

Oh thankyou. I have an arsenal of MB and other supps thanks to this forum and Haidut. Grateful for the additional post also. This community has changed my life so much. I loved being a foodie and health nerd for decades, but this forum has brought it all into sharp focus. I will post later on the move UP, as I have made a years committment to the job.

 

[aquaman]

In yesterday's podcast with Danny Roddy,at around 01:12:30, haidut talked about this:



Basically most of the negative effects take place when there isn't gradual acclimatization, and he offers some remedies - B1, Niacineamide, Methylene Blue.In the long run, the effects seem to be very positive, and combined with all the other changes you say you've made, it sounds like you're in a good place.

This situation most likely wouldn’t apply to eg the teen suicide rate linked above, unless there is a huge migration of teenagers into Colorado!

Perhaps if you’re metabolically unhealthy, Altitude is more challenging

 

[ShotTrue]

I was recently surprised to learn Colorado is crazy high. The men there 3x more likely than women. Teens are twice as likely as the rest of the country. This is absurd and rates have skyrocketing the past 5-10 years
Suicides in Colorado: 2017 Trends
Why Are Colorado Suicides Up 34 Percent?
Colorado teen suicide rate nearly twice national average

So then are we saying these numbers are from new moves to the area? That's completely possible I just wanted to make that point

When I hiked the Sangre de Cristo mountain range from 6000-12000 ft it was tough the first couple of days, and then by the 7th day started getting nosebleeds. Of course this was backpacking with 1/3 of my body weight for 11 days straight.
I wouldn't think it would take too long to acclimate

Additonally, when I played sports they mentioned how teams in Colorado had great conditioning from training in a low oxygen environment

 

[akgrrrl]

So then are we saying these numbers are from new moves to the area? That's completely possible I just wanted to make that point

When I hiked the Sangre de Cristo mountain range from 6000-12000 ft it was tough the first couple of days, and then by the 7th day started getting nosebleeds. Of course this was backpacking with 1/3 of my body weight for 11 days straight.
I wouldn't think it would take too long to acclimate

Additonally, when I played sports they mentioned how teams in Colorado had great conditioning from training in a low oxygen environment

Aha! Thats right where I am, the end of the rockies, and Sangre de Cristos. Daily walk and chores hoping to make hikes easier, but still sleeping overmuch due to uncontrollable sleepyness daytimes. Increase protein? Water? Getting two quarts milk a day with maple syrup over ice which I love. Have been offfered a blood panel workup but prob just the basics plus thyroid. Hmmm, what to ask for...

 

[ShotTrue]

Aha! Thats right where I am, the end of the rockies, and Sangre de Cristos. Daily walk and chores hoping to make hikes easier, but still sleeping overmuch due to uncontrollable sleepyness daytimes. Increase protein? Water? Getting two quarts milk a day with maple syrup over ice which I love. Have been offfered a blood panel workup but prob just the basics plus thyroid. Hmmm, what to ask for...

Beautiful area! Especially up higher
Increasing carbs maybe?
Milk with syrup interesting, I need to mix up milk dink’s myself

 

[Peaterpeater]

Yikes this is really interesting. I just moved to an area with low emfs, low chemtrails, and local farmers markets to reduce my exlosure of glysophates. 9,100 ft and acclimation is a b****. Hoped I was making lots of new red blood cells, and the stressfree job would lead me to a new healthier segment. Now I am not so sure.

You just described my ultimate/ideal place to live! Where do you live, please do tell? I would be so excited to know that such a place exists (low emfs, low chem trails and high altitude). Is it somewhere in Ecuador or Bolivia??? It can’t be within the US....is it even possible?

 

[ShotTrue]

You just described my ultimate/ideal place to live! Where do you live, please do tell? I would be so excited to know that such a place exists (low emfs, low chem trails and high altitude). Is it somewhere in Ecuador or Bolivia??? It can’t be within the US....is it even possible?

New Mexico or nearby

 

[tankasnowgod]

The Chilling Mystery of High-Altitude Suicides

U.S. counties above 4,000 feet have twice the suicides as counties at 2,000 feet. Is it because there's less oxygen in the air, or is something else going on?

The Chilling Mystery of High-Altitude Suicides

Well, the claim in the sub headline is flat out wrong. Those counties don't have twice the suicides. The vast majority of suicides take place below 2,000 feet. That also happens to be were most of the the counties in the USA are located, as well the biggest metro areas (LA, NY, San Fran, San Diego, Chicago, Houston, Seattle, Dallas, Miami, and on and on). Maybe the suicide RATE is twice as high, but then you are comparing rates of less populous counties against highly populated ones. And only 256 counties (out of 2584) have an elevation above 4,000 feet. Of course, there are differences in how suicides will be classified in different areas as well. Doctors and police in LA or Chicago might not want to classify deaths as suicides, when those same types of deaths might be classified as such in small mountain top communities. The differences could all be due to reporting differences.

Even the study claiming higher suicide rates at higher altitudes notes there is lower all cause mortality at those same altitudes-

"Despite a negative correlation (r = −0.31, p < 0.001) between county altitude and the all-cause mortality rate, there was a strong positive correlation (r = 0.50, p < 0.001) between altitude and suicide rate at the county level (Fig. 1). "

 

[akgrrrl]

You just described my ultimate/ideal place to live! Where do you live, please do tell? I would be so excited to know that such a place exists (low emfs, low chem trails and high altitude). Is it somewhere in Ecuador or Bolivia??? It can’t be within the US....is it even possible?

I thought the same thing when I arrived...is it real, and what are the downsides...Angel Fire, NM just 20 miles away from Taos in a valley by itself. Home to popular ski resort and country club with golf, zip lines, hiking trails, air balloon gatherings, a lake stocked with fish; elk, deer, lynx and wild turkeys...and a very small year-round population of humans in the village. Jobs are service industry related, and not a lot of cerebral excellence here in general so far as I have seen. Property taxes high, and weather is amazing. I love the 70ft trees and large population of birds, Kit Carson National Forest

 

[haidut]

Really interesting.
I just came across this quote regarding living in altitude:
"This method ("Live High Train Low") avoids inherent problems associated with permanent residence at altitudes such as limited training load in the oxygen-deficient air, muscle loss, immune system suppression, advanced dehydration and excessive fatigue."
I'm really surprised as I thought all of those things improved in altitude,
and now adding to that your post @Pufas Shmoofas , it really paints a new picture.
I would really like to know what @haidut has to say about this,
or anyone else who knows.

Actually, training at altitude (or at least spending a few week at elevation of at least 4,000 feet) is a widely-recognized and practiced method for improving athletic performance. The number and size of your mitochondria skyrocket when you spend at least 2 weeks at such altitude so when you descend you have much higher performance for the next 7-10 days until your body adapts again to lower altitude living and decreases mitochondria. Many world records have been shattered with this approach, especially in "endurance" disciplines like swimming, running, rowing, and even group sports like basketball and soccer.
Google "training at altitude" or "high altitude training".

 

[Light]

This situation most likely wouldn’t apply to eg the teen suicide rate linked above, unless there is a huge migration of teenagers into Colorado!

Perhaps if you’re metabolically unhealthy, Altitude is more challenging

One of the articles stated that half of the suicide cases in high altitude are by people who have recently moved there after living in lower altitudes, and moving from low to high is considered a risk factor for depression and suicide.
On the other hand,I admit i'm not completely satisfied with acclimatization as the only explanation for issues at altitude.
For example, there's a study that shows that athletes that are deficient in Iron don't get the benefits of altitude training (probably because the Iron is used to make hemoglobin), so it seems - like everything Ray Peat - that it's systemic.

What I understand so far, is that lowering oxygen without raising CO2 is problematic, dangerous even, and I wonder how many of these issues would be helped significantly by bag-breathing, Methylene Blue etc. other things that elevate CO2 in the blood.

 

[tankasnowgod]

One of the articles stated that half of the suicide cases in high altitude are by people who have recently moved there after living in lower altitudes, and moving from low to high is considered a risk factor for depression and suicide.
On the other hand,I admit i'm not completely satisfied with acclimatization as the only explanation for issues at altitude.

Even if you take the CDC's number's at face value (and I pointed out some potential issues with that above), the rate of suicides aren't really all that much higher. If you take the state with the lowest given rate (New York), and subtract the state with the highest (Wyoming), you get an increase of 20.8 suicides per 100,000 people. Which means, even if those numbers are correct and altitude is 100% responsible, a person only increases their chance of committing suicide by 0.0208% by moving from low altitude to high.

Considering most of the high altitude state numbers are less than double the low altitude state numbers, and the article states that about half are recent moves from low to high...... well, acclimatization seems like a mathematically perfect explanation.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Actually, training at altitude (or at least spending a few week at elevation of at least 4,000 feet) is a widely-recognized and practiced method for improving athletic performance. The number and size of your mitochondria skyrocket when you spend at least 2 weeks at such altitude so when you descend you have much higher performance for the next 7-10 days until your body adapts again to lower altitude living and decreases mitochondria. Many world records have been shattered with this approach, especially in "endurance" disciplines like swimming, running, rowing, and even group sports like basketball and soccer.
Google "training at altitude" or "high altitude training".

Yep, this was even mentioned in the Documentary "Bigger Stronger Faster," in the section on Floyd Landis. They even talk about how Landis slept in an altitude chamber to mimic the effects of high elevation.