Caffeine Causing Exhuastion

[Elchapchapchapo]

Hey so I am expericing exhuastion from caffiene, I have currently take thyroid at 1/8 grain + 1 dose of tyronene, however ever since joining the peat world (2 years or so) I have expereinced exhaustion from caffiene, i have gone on and off with it.

So since I have issues with consuming it orally, i figured this might go away while doing coffee enemas, yet I still get the same issue which is a burst in energy and it feels so ******* good, however it crashes time later to where I feel exhuasted and gassed for energy.

I will say though, I am on the third day of enemas that my energy has improved quite nicely.

My question is what am I needing to build and solve the riddle for? I have a feeling it may be overactive adrenals that need to be calmed and the coffee is just pressing on those causing exhaustion.

I'm thinking of adding in liver 2x a week atleast in hopes to boost function

 

[LuMonty]

Make sure to eat or drink some food with sugar and salt as if you were drinking the coffee normally, or if you switch back to that way. A few months ago, I had to have 2.5 tablespoons in a large cup to avoid that kind of reaction. Now I only need one.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I agree. Lots of sugar really is important. I take my temperature and find sometimes I overdo coffee and my temps plunge. I have to have a glass of OJ or a Coke and they bounce back up. Very interesting how easy it is to overdo caffeine.

 

[Cirion]

I now believe the main (one of the main at least) problems with caffeine intake (at least in excess) is depletion of not only some vitamins but also minerals including copper, zinc, iron to name a few. It is often lauded in these forums to chelate and remove iron in particular where-ever possible and for some people, it certainly is beneficial. But I think for someone who already has nutrient deficiencies, caffeine *could* be problematic and yes may even cause iron deficiency, especially when everyone (almost) says iron is bad and therefore takes NO effort to ensure it doesn't go too low. And I no longer think it is the calories that matter so much, this is the popular theory but my experiences prove it to be false - I eat more calories than virtually everyone here (5000-6000 easily) and I still have problems with more than 1 cup of coffee a day and I firmly believe it is nutrient depletion / mineral depletion now and not calorie/sugar depletion.

That's my (personal) problem with stimulants. Anything that boosts your metabolism requires nutrients to back it. And that includes at least to some degree ALL the nutrients - fat solubles, water solubles, minerals/electrolytes. Coming from a nutritional debt to start from, I personally wouldn't recommend (at least my past self) to have more than 1 cup of coffee a day. Coffee and other stimulants are a double edged sword. Yes, they are highly effective at boosting metabolism. But said boosted metabolism needs more nutrients, of which people who are hypothyroid are already deficient in. This is why so many people see benefit to quit all stimulants, not add to them. And the reason why (most) people are hypothyroid is the very fact that they are nutrient deficient. Your body is not stupid. It turns down your metabolism precisely BECAUSE nutrients are scarce. So when you boost it artificially, the nutrients which were scarce become even scarcer -> fatigue, brain fog, "caffeine withdrawal". It's like charging on a credit card and failing to pay back at the end of the month and accruing interest.

So to me, caffeine is one of those things where its benefits are not really seen until one is healthy, at which point you don't even need it anymore anyway. So, *at least for me*, I think caffeine is not something that has a place in my diet anymore, except for perhaps a cup a day. Hopefully one day I will get my nutrient levels to a place where I CAN tolerate more than 1 cup of coffee a day, but I really can't say it's a goal of mine, since caffeine just seems to be more trouble than its worth to me.

My two cents.

 

[Runenight201]

In my opinion if one is buzzing along the energy from fruit/fruit juice/sugar, coffee is unneeded, and is a waste of space in the stomach when better nutrition can be consumed.

If one consumes milk though then I think coffee to be beneficial, as it’ll offset any negative effects milk could have.

Im not too sure about milk though anymore. Apple juice with sodium bicarbonate seems to be doing a better job energizing me then the often brain fog inducing milk.

 

[Cirion]

In my opinion if one is buzzing along the energy from fruit/fruit juice/sugar, coffee is unneeded, and is a waste of space in the stomach when better nutrition can be consumed.

If one consumes milk though then I think coffee to be beneficial, as it’ll offset any negative effects milk could have.

Im not too sure about milk though anymore. Apple juice with sodium bicarbonate seems to be doing a better job energizing me then the often brain fog inducing milk.

I hate admitting I'm wrong about things, but you were right about milk all along. Ok well not entirely lol, but for my current state of health at least & the quality of milk available to me.

I do now think that virtually all if not all commercially available milk in stores is not suitable for human consumption. If I ever touch milk again in large amounts like before it will only be raw un-adulterated milk. I think if everyone had access to raw milk there would be a lot less problems with it.

That said I'm still having some milk, but drastically less (about 1/4 to 1/3 of what I was having) because I still want the natural calcium, but I am taking milk with gelatin and bcaa's now and that helps considerably with the negative effects. Last couple of days I have even put taurine in it as an experiment, seems to boost my temp doing that.

 

[Runenight201]

I hate admitting I'm wrong about things, but you were right about milk all along. Ok well not entirely lol, but for my current state of health at least & the quality of milk available to me.

I do now think that virtually all if not all commercially available milk in stores is not suitable for human consumption. If I ever touch milk again in large amounts like before it will only be raw un-adulterated milk. I think if everyone had access to raw milk there would be a lot less problems with it.

That said I'm still having some milk, but drastically less (about 1/4 to 1/3 of what I was having) because I still want the natural calcium, but I am taking milk with gelatin and bcaa's now and that helps considerably with the negative effects. Last couple of days I have even put taurine in it as an experiment, seems to boost my temp doing that.

Lol yea dude for us complicated cases in my opinion a simple diet of beef and juice is the best ground zero to work from. Expand outwards from there. It’s like combining the best of the raw vegan world with the best of the carnivore world. Maybe someone may find themselves adding back in small amounts of dairy or starches or lentils or vegetables. But beef and juice is a solid base. Can’t go wrong there. It’s the most evolutionarily friendly, digestively friendly diet possible.

 

[Cirion]

Lol yea dude for us complicated cases in my opinion a simple diet of beef and juice is the best ground zero to work from. Expand outwards from there. It’s like combining the best of the raw vegan world with the best of the carnivore world. Maybe someone may find themselves adding back in small amounts of dairy or starches or lentils or vegetables. But beef and juice is a solid base. Can’t go wrong there. It’s the most evolutionarily friendly, digestively friendly diet possible.

I am back to my tried and true 1 lb of grass fed beef a day for a vast amount of my protein. Grass fed beef has always been my fall-back option, I quit it in the past because of the fear-mongering here about both the iron content and the phosphorus content but the reality is next to organ meat, grass fed beef is about the safest you can get.

Interestingly I notice my nails grow a lot faster when I regularly eat beef. Probably because of the zinc and other minerals. I do not fear the iron content at all either anymore, in fact I embrace it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with dietary iron in natural form, unless you have hemochromatosis, and for a time I have been concerned I may be too low on dietary iron anyway.

The truth is the few times I have been pretty healthy, all but one of those times my diet had beef as my staple protein source.

 

[cyclops]

I heard Ray say in an interview the regular ol' supermarket milk is still better then most anything you can buy in a supermarket.

 

[Cirion]

I heard Ray say in an interview the regular o' supermarket milk is better is still better then most anything you can buy in a supermarket.

I really respect Peat, he has done a lot for my health. But he's wrong here. I have never been able to make milk work for me no matter how much I try. At least not the stuff commercially available. The same is true of me and so many other people. In fact I only know of maybe two people on these forums that milk works for (waremu and tca3000, maybe one or two more at most). Even haidut has said he can only tolerate a small amount of milk, and he is arguably the healthiest person on these forums.

I acknowledge that at least a part of this is because of sub-optimal thyroid/digestion, but it's been my experience that you can't get better digestion by forcing milk down, I gave it a fair shot but it didn't work for me. So have so many others here.

 

[Elchapchapchapo]

I now believe the main (one of the main at least) problems with caffeine intake (at least in excess) is depletion of not only some vitamins but also minerals including copper, zinc, iron to name a few. It is often lauded in these forums to chelate and remove iron in particular where-ever possible and for some people, it certainly is beneficial. But I think for someone who already has nutrient deficiencies, caffeine *could* be problematic and yes may even cause iron deficiency, especially when everyone (almost) says iron is bad and therefore takes NO effort to ensure it doesn't go too low. And I no longer think it is the calories that matter so much, this is the popular theory but my experiences prove it to be false - I eat more calories than virtually everyone here (5000-6000 easily) and I still have problems with more than 1 cup of coffee a day and I firmly believe it is nutrient depletion / mineral depletion now and not calorie/sugar depletion.

That's my (personal) problem with stimulants. Anything that boosts your metabolism requires nutrients to back it. And that includes at least to some degree ALL the nutrients - fat solubles, water solubles, minerals/electrolytes. Coming from a nutritional debt to start from, I personally wouldn't recommend (at least my past self) to have more than 1 cup of coffee a day. Coffee and other stimulants are a double edged sword. Yes, they are highly effective at boosting metabolism. But said boosted metabolism needs more nutrients, of which people who are hypothyroid are already deficient in. This is why so many people see benefit to quit all stimulants, not add to them. And the reason why (most) people are hypothyroid is the very fact that they are nutrient deficient. Your body is not stupid. It turns down your metabolism precisely BECAUSE nutrients are scarce. So when you boost it artificially, the nutrients which were scarce become even scarcer -> fatigue, brain fog, "caffeine withdrawal". It's like charging on a credit card and failing to pay back at the end of the month and accruing interest.

So to me, caffeine is one of those things where its benefits are not really seen until one is healthy, at which point you don't even need it anymore anyway. So, *at least for me*, I think caffeine is not something that has a place in my diet anymore, except for perhaps a cup a day. Hopefully one day I will get my nutrient levels to a place where I CAN tolerate more than 1 cup of coffee a day, but I really can't say it's a goal of mine, since caffeine just seems to be more trouble than its worth to me.

My two cents.

See this to me sounds more like something on the hormonal or something within the body - maybe liver not being able to handle the load, and the reason why is because if the body is good 1 cup of coffee really shouldnt be much for a system, it should be able to maintain it with adequate fuel, it has to be something further and I am suspecting cortisol being high and then that getting raised and then the rising of cortisol creates the crash down the road.

I am similair to you and I need to ramp up calories to a high amount to get into the 3-4k range and just see what happens on coffee then again but I have a feeling its going to be the same thing. I think that caffiene is super vital for liver issues and having the liver in a nice stimulated state basically.

The enemas work really nice on accelerating the liver and it feels great, its just figuring out the block that creates the crash and then building on that
I

 

[Elchapchapchapo]

Make sure to eat or drink some food with sugar and salt as if you were drinking the coffee normally, or if you switch back to that way. A few months ago, I had to have 2.5 tablespoons in a large cup to avoid that kind of reaction. Now I only need one.

thanks I actually never take coffee without a meal or milk / sugar thats why I think it is something deeper

 

[ecstatichamster]

Meat is very high in phosphorus and a bit high in methionine.

 

[ecstatichamster]

thanks I actually never take coffee without a meal or milk / sugar thats why I think it is something deeper

Try 45 minutes after eating.

 

[LuMonty]

The coffee would be absorbed much more quickly with the method you're using, causing a greater spike in metabolism. If what the others are saying doesn't help, that would be my best guess.

 

[Cirion]

See this to me sounds more like something on the hormonal or something within the body - maybe liver not being able to handle the load, and the reason why is because if the body is good 1 cup of coffee really shouldnt be much for a system, it should be able to maintain it with adequate fuel, it has to be something further and I am suspecting cortisol being high and then that getting raised and then the rising of cortisol creates the crash down the road.

I am similair to you and I need to ramp up calories to a high amount to get into the 3-4k range and just see what happens on coffee then again but I have a feeling its going to be the same thing. I think that caffiene is super vital for liver issues and having the liver in a nice stimulated state basically.

The enemas work really nice on accelerating the liver and it feels great, its just figuring out the block that creates the crash and then building on that
I

I have read much of the studies posted here touting the benefits of caffeine for liver health. Regardless, it never seemed like a net positive for me in any of the large (300-600+) mg dosages claimed and always resulted in worsening symptoms for me. That's just my experience though. Others may vary.

Meat is very high in phosphorus and a bit high in methionine.

True but I am no longer concerned about it to be honest. I am eating ample gelatin these days, and supplement bcaa when I can also. I didn't completely remove milk, but I don't ascribe to the silly gallon intakes anymore. I still get close to a 1:1 calcium:phosphorus ratio and RP himself, didn't he say that a 1:2 ratio is probably fine anyway? Milk is also tryptophan heavy which RP doesn't seem concerned about for some reason. For some like me, it all goes straight to serotonin (at least, without gelatin). Every food has some give and take, and the give and take is relative to your genetics and current health status. For my current health status, large amounts of milk has too much take and not enough give. Same with caffeine. There is no point to "Force" something to work. It either makes me better or worse, that's the only lens I am going to view things through from this point forward.

 

[RisingSun]

See this to me sounds more like something on the hormonal or something within the body - maybe liver not being able to handle the load, and the reason why is because if the body is good 1 cup of coffee really shouldnt be much for a system, it should be able to maintain it with adequate fuel, it has to be something further and I am suspecting cortisol being high and then that getting raised and then the rising of cortisol creates the crash down the road.

I am similair to you and I need to ramp up calories to a high amount to get into the 3-4k range and just see what happens on coffee then again but I have a feeling its going to be the same thing. I think that caffiene is super vital for liver issues and having the liver in a nice stimulated state basically.

The enemas work really nice on accelerating the liver and it feels great, its just figuring out the block that creates the crash and then building on that
I

Probably not hormonal but bacterial. If you don't have all the bacteria strains humans are supposed to have in their gut, you will have food intolerances

 

[methylenewhite]

I have read much of the studies posted here touting the benefits of caffeine for liver health. Regardless, it never seemed like a net positive for me in any of the large (300-600+) mg dosages claimed and always resulted in worsening symptoms for me. That's just my experience though. Others may vary.

Is it 300-600 mg of caffeine in a pure caffeine form or in a form of coffee?

 

[Lokzo]

Look what I found:
In addition, 24 hour withdrawal from caffeine increases corticosterone, a stress-related hormone released during HPA activation (O’Neill, et. al., 2016).

 

[Bogdar]

I now believe the main (one of the main at least) problems with caffeine intake (at least in excess) is depletion of not only some vitamins but also minerals including copper, zinc, iron to name a few. It is often lauded in these forums to chelate and remove iron in particular where-ever possible and for some people, it certainly is beneficial. But I think for someone who already has nutrient deficiencies, caffeine *could* be problematic and yes may even cause iron deficiency, especially when everyone (almost) says iron is bad and therefore takes NO effort to ensure it doesn't go too low. And I no longer think it is the calories that matter so much, this is the popular theory but my experiences prove it to be false - I eat more calories than virtually everyone here (5000-6000 easily) and I still have problems with more than 1 cup of coffee a day and I firmly believe it is nutrient depletion / mineral depletion now and not calorie/sugar depletion.

That's my (personal) problem with stimulants. Anything that boosts your metabolism requires nutrients to back it. And that includes at least to some degree ALL the nutrients - fat solubles, water solubles, minerals/electrolytes. Coming from a nutritional debt to start from, I personally wouldn't recommend (at least my past self) to have more than 1 cup of coffee a day. Coffee and other stimulants are a double edged sword. Yes, they are highly effective at boosting metabolism. But said boosted metabolism needs more nutrients, of which people who are hypothyroid are already deficient in. This is why so many people see benefit to quit all stimulants, not add to them. And the reason why (most) people are hypothyroid is the very fact that they are nutrient deficient. Your body is not stupid. It turns down your metabolism precisely BECAUSE nutrients are scarce. So when you boost it artificially, the nutrients which were scarce become even scarcer -> fatigue, brain fog, "caffeine withdrawal". It's like charging on a credit card and failing to pay back at the end of the month and accruing interest.

So to me, caffeine is one of those things where its benefits are not really seen until one is healthy, at which point you don't even need it anymore anyway. So, *at least for me*, I think caffeine is not something that has a place in my diet anymore, except for perhaps a cup a day. Hopefully one day I will get my nutrient levels to a place where I CAN tolerate more than 1 cup of coffee a day, but I really can't say it's a goal of mine, since caffeine just seems to be more trouble than its worth to me.

My two cents.

My experience with coffee totally agree with you. I took coffee for some time, 1 to 3 cup a day. Lot of times it would give me exhaustion and nervousness afterward. Adding sugar or any form of calories would not change anything even in big quantities, it was actually kinda worse since I was now nervous and exhausted with something being digested. Also, taking it gave me mineral depletion symptoms, like fatigue, light headedness, muscular cramps and twitching. At one point I observed my teeth demineralized. It was a bad loop, since I was tired, I drank coffee, and coffee made me tired and depleted afterward.

Anyway, I stopped it thanks to holidays in high altitude. When I came back, digestion was upgraded, energy, mineral depletion symptoms lessened a lot over time, and I randomly observed my teeth getting whiter 2 weeks after I stopped. No more coffee for me, for now.

Indeed, IMO, as every excitant coffee should not be taken when too sick or "in mineral debt". In the short run ok, but in the long run can be dangerous.