Vitamin K2

Arrade

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Did you experience any changes to the face? I'm still intrigued by that user "gummybear" and his alleged widening face. My main interest in vitamin K is its potential in widening the dental arches naturally in conjunction with chewing fibrous leafy greens.

The stretch marks on my skin appeared after only two weeks, and it was only on my calves. I'm not sure that I could've grown enough to get stretch marks in such a short period. I would expect to see changes over the course of three months and on. I stopped taking MK7 for another reason, its only source is bacteria in the gut apparently (?) The bone popping you mention is kinda iffy. I'd seen nosebleeds mentioned twice as a side effect of MK7 too.
Mk7 increases blood flow/ fixes arterial calcification so I could see the nose bleed issue.
Now you know how you have that square middle part in your ear above the ear lobe? When I see my reflection I can see that my jaw covers that now. So I think my jaw did grow. I think my jaw hurts more with mk4 tho (growing pain)

I don’t think you were on it long enough to have stretch marks because of it.
Honestly, I’m not scared of Mk7. After a month of mk4 I think I’ll run my high dose Mk7 in hopes of reversing scalp calcification.
 

Arrade

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Also the Japanese are very healthy and consume an average if 230 mcg Mk7 daily through their diet.
 

crestind

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I'm going to try another brand of MK-7 eventually, with same dosage. Could be an issue with the brand I tried. Also I have no idea if it was cis or trans.
 

Arrade

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I'm going to try another brand of MK-7 eventually, with same dosage. Could be an issue with the brand I tried. Also I have no idea if it was cis or trans.
Try Jarrows Mk7, and take at least 3 a day
 

Arrade

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My bones and joints popped a crazy amount. They felt solid though, I really felt like it was a good thing
 

Arrade

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@crestind Actually if you want just the jaw widening, go with high dose mk4 with Vit d and Vit a.
Mk4 is the only one that changes gene expression of bone
 
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Lokzo

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Can someone please explain to me why any form of Vitamin K2 makes me feel extreme fatigue, low energy, low mood, low blood pressure?

I've tried both Mk4 and Mk7 time and time again, and it's very rare for me to react so strongly to something, but it feels like I am so "out of it" whenever I try and supplement Vitamin K2.
Does it slash cortisol?

Would love your thoughts/ideas?
 

Constatine

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Hi guru. How does it work?
Lol I don't know about guru. Vitamin k increases carboxylation of matrix-carboxyglutamic acid protein (MGP) which binds to and allows the elimination of calcium in the blood. As for how low blood calcium can cause a rapid heart rate I don't know the exact process but calcium homeostasis is incredibly important for the electrical signaling of the heart and very low calcium levels are known to cause ventricular arrhytmias or too rapid heart beats especially in the lower portion of the heart: Severe hypocalcemia and life-threatening ventricular arrhytmias: case report and proposal of a diagnostic and therapeutic algorithm. An article on calcium and the heart: Calcium Dynamics and Cardiac Arrhythmia. Its note worthy that low blood calcium can also cause a degree of metabolic acidosis of which rapid heart rate is one of the symptoms.
Another reason vitamin K might cause rapid heart rates for some has to do with a reply Travis made in the past: K2 Causing Heart Palpitations, where he talked about vitamin k2 being structurally similar to coQ10 (which is very cardioactive and is known to increase heart rate: The effects of [omega]3 fatty acids and coenzyme Q10 on blood pressure and heart rate in chronic kidney disease: a randomized controlled trial. - PubMed - NCBI). Apparently the mechanisms has to do with the electron transport chain. Though I am aware of your study stating menaquinone is not utilized in the electron transport chain of humans so idk about that theory.
 
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Amazoniac

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Lol I don't know about guru. Vitamin k increases carboxylation of matrix-carboxyglutamic acid protein (MGP) which binds to and allows the elimination of calcium in the blood. As for how low blood calcium can cause a rapid heart rate I don't know the exact process but calcium homeostasis is incredibly important for the electrical signaling of the heart and very low calcium levels are known to cause ventricular arrhytmias or too rapid heart beats especially in the lower portion of the heart: Severe hypocalcemia and life-threatening ventricular arrhytmias: case report and proposal of a diagnostic and therapeutic algorithm. An article on calcium and the heart: Calcium Dynamics and Cardiac Arrhythmia. Its note worthy that low blood calcium can also cause a degree of metabolic acidosis of which rapid heart rate is one of the symptoms.
Another reason vitamin K might cause rapid heart rates for some has to do with a reply Travis made in the past: K2 Causing Heart Palpitations, where he talked about vitamin k2 being structurally similar to coQ10 (which is very cardioactive and is known to increase heart rate: The effects of [omega]3 fatty acids and coenzyme Q10 on blood pressure and heart rate in chronic kidney disease: a randomized controlled trial. - PubMed - NCBI). Apparently the mechanisms has to do with the electron transport chain. Though I am aware of your study stating menaquinone is not utilized in the electron transport chain of humans so idk about that theory.
Thank you. It overrides regulatory processes if the dose is too high? Can't it be simply be cleared, perform other functions that won't compromise calcium levels or the protein decarboxylizated when not needed?
 
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Constatine

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Thank you. It overrides regulatory processes if the dose is too high? Can't it be simply be cleared, perform other functions that won't compromise calcium levels or the protein decarboxylizated when not needed?
The evidence I've seen suggests that vitamin k decreases calcium build up quite linearly: Menaquinone-4 modulates the expression levels of calcification-associated factors to inhibit calcification of rat aortic vascular smooth muscle cells in a dose-dependent manner (figure 1). But I don't know if under the condition that calcium levels are reduced to boarderline hypocalcemia would this linear relationship still exist. Also most studies look at calcium deposits not just serum calcium levels. As for vitamin K's effect on the carboxylation of MGP it does seem somewhat linear: https://sci-hub.tw/https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22169620 (figure 3) at least in the given doses. I can't give a definite answer but the potential is there.
 

BigChad

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Thank you. It overrides regulatory processes if the dose is too high? Can't it be simply be cleared, perform other functions that won't compromise calcium levels or the protein decarboxylizated when not needed?

do you know about K1 and Mk7 inhibiting 5ar activity? what do you think about codelabs ADK product on amazon. 1000mcg k1, 1500mcg mk4, 300mcg mk7. they do not mention the type of mk7 on the bottle or listing. they said all the vitamin k is sourced from bacterial synthesis and fermentation from algae. seems safer than the soy natto based vitamin k products on the market?
 

Amazoniac

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do you know about K1 and Mk7 inhibiting 5ar activity? what do you think about codelabs ADK product on amazon. 1000mcg k1, 1500mcg mk4, 300mcg mk7. they do not mention the type of mk7 on the bottle or listing. they said all the vitamin k is sourced from bacterial synthesis and fermentation from algae. seems safer than the soy natto based vitamin k products on the market?
- 5a-Reductase Inhibitory Components as Antiandrogens From Herbal Medicine

upload_2019-6-29_5-57-7.png

↳ [12] Testosterone 5a-Reductase Inhibitors, Menaquinone-7 Produced by a Bacillus and Phenazine Methosulfate

upload_2019-6-29_5-57-27.png


The conversion from M to uM requires you to multiply the number by 10^6. Menadione's power of 10 does the opposite and so it can be used as reference.

Menadione: 3.1 uM
Menaquinone: 4.0 * 10^(-5) M → 40 uM
Phylloquinone: 6.6 * 10^(-4) M → 660 uM
Phenazine methosulfate: 4.9 * 10^(-8) M → 0.049 uM

What's up with riboflavin?

- Anti‐Androgenic Activity of Fatty Acids

Liver tissue:
upload_2019-6-29_5-57-43.png
 
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BigChad

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- 5a-Reductase Inhibitory Components as Antiandrogens From Herbal Medicine


↳ [12] Testosterone 5a-Reductase Inhibitors, Menaquinone-7 Produced by a Bacillus and Phenazine Methosulfate

View attachment 13804

The conversion from M to uM requires you to multiply the number by 10^6. Menadione's power of 10 does the opposite and so it can be used as reference.

Menadione: 3.1 uM
Menaquinone: 4.0 * 10^(-5) M → 40 uM
Phylloquinone: 6.6 * 10^(-4) M → 660 uM
Phenazine methosulfate: 4.9 * 10^(-8) M → 0.049 uM

What's up with riboflavin?

- Anti‐Androgenic Activity of Fatty Acids

Liver tissue:
View attachment 13806

Would you say k1 and mk7 need to be avoided entirely, even if taking vitamin e? I was going to take thornes ultimate e once a week, nutrigold vitamin e gold 3x a week, and ADK 4x a week. The thorne e is a big dose
 

Amazoniac

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Would you say k1 and mk7 need to be avoided entirely, even if taking vitamin e? I was going to take thornes ultimate e once a week, nutrigold vitamin e gold 3x a week, and ADK 4x a week. The thorne e is a big dose
I don't know what is best to do, probably starting simpler.

But some days ago there was a discussion on amino acids and how their molecule differs, giving false impressions of amounts; same here.

The comparisons above are in terms of molecules, so it can be misleading. Lauric acid has lower molecular weight than linoleic, for one gram you'll have more lauric acid molecules than the other. Contrary to this, the fatty acid composition of oils is usually given as percentage of weight, so you could have much more or less than initially assumed.

Another negleced factor is their occurence. It will depend on your diet, but you can be ingesting grams and grams of an inhibiting fatty acid and at the same time concerned about a few mg of antidote K.

Some fats are also easier to digest (to release the fatty acids), concentrate in certain organs, are metabolized differently, animal differences, and so on, all affecting the inhibition.
 
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Amazoniac

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Vitamin K compounds are reasonably stable towards heat, oxygen, and mild acidic conditions, but are degraded by UV light, alkalis, and strong acids.
Menaquinone - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics
"In the last decade, a large set of clinical studies highlighted the beneficial effects of menaquinone supplementation in the prevention of osteoporosis [16,17,18]. These studies employed natural MK7 produced by fermentation, the characteristics of which have been recently summarized in a US Pharmacopeia (USP) monograph, consisting of no less then (NLT) 96% and no more than (NMT) 101% of active all-trans MK7, along with NMT 2% of MK6, a characteristic marker of natural fermentation from B. subtilis natto that might be present in small amounts in natural products. Moreover, it is known that biologically inactive cis isomers can be formed as by-products in the chemical synthesis, as well as following geometrical isomerization, due to physical and chemical stress during technological processing or storage. In this respect, cis isomer content defined by the USP monograph in K2 should be NMT 2%."

"In general, USP monographs for finished dosage forms do not refer to “purity” as a test in a monograph, but rather refer to an “Assay” or “Content” test procedure that is not suitable to measure the overall purity as referred to in FDA’s cGMPs when applied to an ingredient. The USP monograph for Menaquinone 7 sets maximum levels for Menaquinone 6 (assay) and for cis-Menaquinone 7 (isomeric purity) but does not require assessing of the overall purity nor sets a maximum level for unknown impurities."

"Two recent publications [19,20] highlighted that the indications of the USP monograph showed important limitations in terms of purity profiling and are subjected to risk of overestimation since several cis-trans isomers cannot be distinguished from the all-trans active form with conventional chromatographic techniques. Using a combination of high-resolution mass spectrometry and quadrupole-time of flight (HRMS-Q-TOF) for the identification and charged aerosol/diode array detectors (CAD/DAD) for the quantification, Szterk et al. [19] observed that out of seven supplement formulations from the European and U.S. market, most had a lower content in active MK7 all-trans in association with relevant, in some cases major, content of inactive cis-trans isomers and other not identified impurities. Similarly, Jedynak et al. [20] have shown that the use of specific chromatographic columns and phases is able to detect potential contaminants in the raw materials, while insufficient separation is the main reason of overestimation of the results obtained by using the USP methodology when products are not highly purified. Notably, the same authors reported that MK7 was unstable in forced degradation experiments, in particular in alkaline conditions, suggesting that instability during storage or in formulation might be the cause of large variations in the content of MK7 in the studied dietary supplements, and they observed discrepancies between nominal and actual content. In particular, its use in formulation raised the question of potential instabilities of complex formulas, such as in combination with minerals or oxidising agents that could alter the stability of the formulation."

"In general, menaquinones, while showing a very high thermal stability, may be degraded following exposure to UV radiation and alkaline compounds [23]. It is very likely that magnesium oxide-associated instability is associated with alkalinisation, which appears to be remarkably effective in accelerated stress conditions in the presence of higher relative humidity (75%)."

"Following the observed differences in stability behaviour in products with identical specifications, the purity profile of the vitamins was further analyzed using the methodology developed by Jedynak et al. [20], in order to detect any characteristics that may explain the differences in stability.

The results of the HPLC analyses showed very different chromatographic profiles, as reported in Figure 3. Analysis summarized in Table 1 shows that, while all producers comply with the general USP definition, they showed a very heterogeneous composition in impurities ranging qualitatively in the naturally fermented products from absence of undefined peaks (0% unknown components) in PI to 19 undefined peaks (3.52% unknown components) in PIII."

"The MK7’s actual content and purity profile was estimated in seven different supplements, chosen among those available on the international market, mainly from suppliers declaring the source of menaquinone. Chromatograms are reported in Figure 4, and quantitative and purity data are summarized in Table 2. Analysis, conducted with the combined used of HPLC UV-visible for purity profile and fluorescent detection for sensitive menaquinone title definition, confirmed the presence of a variable number of undefined chromatographic peaks that ranged from 2 up to 19 compounds, in analogy to what was observed in the MK7 powder."

"The presence of impurities was associated in four of the samples, with a notably decreased menaquinone content ranging from 5% (S7) to 55% (S1) of the nominal value. Only three of the tested supplements showed menaquinone content in agreement with the declared content, while the percentage of active all-trans form was above 97%, in agreement with USP guidelines, in only one supplement (S2)."​
 

Amazoniac

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- Vitamin K2

Is it just prioritization of killcium where some tissues will get more when in excess or there's marked redistribution for not inactivating before starvation of other tissues occurs? Because adverse effects from mk-7 could be explained by the second option, it seems so and it would call for the standard Ca-Mg-D combination with it to prevent this.
 

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