"The Primary Sources Of Acidity In The Diet Are Sulfur-containing AAs, Salt, And Phosphoric Acid"

[yerrag]

Potassium bicarbonate taken with liquids (contrary to heavy meals) is a little riskier because the delivery can be abrupt and the heart will adsorb the punch.

I've taken potassium bicarbonate away from meals also. Are you talking about the risks of potassium supplementation as far as people with kidney problems goes, or for people on certain medication that makes it difficult to excrete excess potassium?

There's no extra chloride being added to the body, it just recirculates

Oh okay. You're right!

As the two pimps mentioned above pointed out, bicarbonates react with stomach acid immediately when they're allowed to, and this contrasts with the carbonate and hydroxide forms. I think a portion of them escapes unreacted and have a laxative action, otherwise if you matched for magnesium content, they shouldn't differ in relation to the chloride form in terms of absorption. I don't know if they can be absorbed intact, probably not.

I suppose I should consider trying calcium bicarbonate for supplementation as an option as well. This time it converts to calcium chloride, but still no calcium added, so it should still be good.

But of course, isolated mineral supplementation isn't a first option. Having eggshell powder would still be better for calcium over calcium bicarbonate, unless I could make my eggshell powder so fine it would be the calcium carbonate used to make calcium bicarbonate.

 

[Amazoniac]

I've taken potassium bicarbonate away from meals also. Are you talking about the risks of potassium supplementation as far as people with kidney problems goes, or for people on certain medication that makes it difficult to excrete excess potassium?

"The Primary Sources Of Acidity In The Diet Are Sulfur-containing AAs, Salt, And Phosphoric Acid"

--
Emmanuelle, examples:

[..]simply replacing HCO3- (or equivalent buffer) without attempting to arrest the underlying disturbance is unacceptable. All efforts must be directed to reversing the condition that led to the overproduction of acid.

Simply treating the acidosis with base is not only of little benefit, as ongoing production of the organic anion is overwhelming, but also potentially deleterious [extreme cases].

[..]These considerations highlight the limitations of sodium bicarbonate therapy, especially for an organic metabolic acidosis, as it is a manifestation of an underlying pathologic process and not a disease in itself. The focus of therapy should therefore be on reversing the pathophysiologic process, not on alkali therapy. Successful treatment leads to diminished production of organic acids and enhanced clearance by liver and kidneys, with hepatic and renal regeneration of bicarbonate within hours. Replenishment of extracellular buffer alone is unlikely to provide benefit.

 

[yerrag]

"The Primary Sources Of Acidity In The Diet Are Sulfur-containing AAs, Salt, And Phosphoric Acid"

--
Emmanuelle, examples:

It's understood that the use of bicarbonate supplements are to alleviate an existing acid-base imbalance that causes the ecf to be acidic. It doesn't fix the underlying cause, but is helpful. This is not to be considered the end-all and be-all, as this becomes a case of treating the symptom.

But in cases where due to diminished bodily functions, as is the case with elderly people, where the cause cannot be fixed, it is helpful in an adaptohenic way.

 

[Amazoniac]

It's understood that the use of bicarbonate supplements are to alleviate an existing acid-base imbalance that causes the ecf to be acidic. It doesn't fix the underlying cause, but is helpful. This is not to be considered the end-all and be-all, as this becomes a case of treating the symptom.

But in cases where due to diminished bodily functions, as is the case with elderly people, where the cause cannot be fixed, it is helpful in an adaptohenic way.

I agree. There are some miraculous stories of people curing cancer this way with simple additions, so they do work but are often insufficient for most people.

Having a notion on what makes a diet balanced is valuable regardless if it's for prevention or cure.

--
- Nutrition and magnesium absorption: a review

 

[Jennifer]

@Jennifer - Hi! Does this interest you?

Hi Gustavo! :) Yes, anything you write interests me. I may not always contribute to the conversation, but I am taking it all in behind the scenes and seeing how it applies to what I'm doing or not doing. Right now I'm just trying to accept the fact that I react so poorly to something as simple as a veggie but not meat. For a minute, my old fear came back about the lack of substantial calcium in my diet when Ray referred to the phosphate in meat as very harmful but after a decade on this not so merry-go-round, I know forcing my body into submission by getting it to perform the way the science says it should doesn't work so I'm just trying my best to respect that this time around.

 

[charlie]

I've taken potassium bicarbonate away from meals also. Are you talking about the risks of potassium supplementation as far as people with kidney problems goes, or for people on certain medication that makes it difficult to excrete excess potassium?

Oh okay. You're right!

I suppose I should consider trying calcium bicarbonate for supplementation as an option as well. This time it converts to calcium chloride, but still no calcium added, so it should still be good.

But of course, isolated mineral supplementation isn't a first option. Having eggshell powder would still be better for calcium over calcium bicarbonate, unless I could make my eggshell powder so fine it would be the calcium carbonate used to make calcium bicarbonate.

"The Primary Sources Of Acidity In The Diet Are Sulfur-containing AAs, Salt, And Phosphoric Acid"

--
Emmanuelle, examples:

Have ye not Read?

 

[Amazoniac]

Hi Gustavo! :) Yes, anything you write interests me. I may not always contribute to the conversation, but I am taking it all in behind the scenes and seeing how it applies to what I'm doing or not doing. Right now I'm just trying to accept the fact that I react so poorly to something as simple as a veggie but not meat. For a minute, my old fear came back about the lack of substantial calcium in my diet when Ray referred to the phosphate in meat as very harmful but after a decade on this not so merry-go-round, I know forcing my body into submission by getting it to perform the way the science says it should doesn't work so I'm just trying my best to respect that this time around.

If you're struggling to get enough calcium from diet to balance that phosphate and want to avoid supplements at all costs, I think it's worth having an idea of how much you must be getting, perhaps the amounts are not concerning when you consider the diet as a whole (PUFAs, 2015).

On the previous page they've mentioned that it's 1300 mg of phosphorus for every 100 g of proteid. You might be consuming less than this as meats, and when you search for the specific content, such as what's found in half of a kitchen breast, it provides only 200 mg of phosphorus. It's not far from what you can find in some dairies (J, 2016), and you can make up for it elsewhere (emu, 2018). I don't think this difference is worrying if the rest of the diet is eliquibradet and if you have enough vit D. Selfish should be balanced in this regard.

An alternative to supplements is trying to consume parts that are supposed to be discarded (such as skins/peels), long or pressure cooking might be enough to take care of the toxins. The options for this are plenty, however I don't know about the safety of each. An example is Raj's marmalade, I've just brewed its nutritional profile and every 100 g of raw orange peel provides 160 mg of calcium and little phosphorus, and this is without the juice.

- Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

"Cooked green leaves, or the water they were boiled in, is a very good source of magnesium, with other minerals in safe ratio."​

..I assume that calcium is also leached.

Have ye not Read?

I came across this book some time ago, but I'm reminded of Élie's observation that makes us reconsider all magnetisms.

 

[Jennifer]

Thank you, @Amazoniac! That's very helpful. I completely forgot about the herbal concentrates I make — I would think they, and the herbs I use in my cooking, provide some calcium, too?

 

[Amazoniac]

Thank you, @Amazoniac! That's very helpful. I completely forgot about the herbal concentrates I make — I would think they, and the herbs I use in my cooking, provide some calcium, too?

I suspect their calcium contribution is not great but every small addition counts at the end of the day. It shouldn't be difficult to balance as long as the person is not eating meats like a viking, and I doubt that if these amounts are left unbalanced they're too detrimental.

(120 g = 1 medium = 37 g of protein)

Alone or with those other ingredients:

That's a magic water, but you get the point.

In terms of phosphate, there's too much concern with meats and neglect with other sources:
- Chest Pain/Discomfort At Night

- Parathyroid hormone - Wikipedia

"PTH reduces the reabsorption of phosphate from the proximal tubule of the kidney,[24] which means more phosphate is excreted through the urine.

However, PTH enhances the uptake of phosphate from the intestine and bones into the blood. In the bone, slightly more calcium than phosphate is released from the breakdown of bone. In the intestines, absorption of both calcium and phosphate is mediated by an increase in activated vitamin D. The absorption of phosphate is not as dependent on vitamin D as is that of calcium. The end result of PTH release is a small net drop in the serum concentration of phosphate."​

 

[Jennifer]

@Amazoniac — Thank you! That's reassuring. Charlie gave me a recipe that uses collards so I'm going to give it a try. Now to find some giant swamp taro. That should be easy enough. Hehe!

 

[Amazoniac]

Gas production after reaction of sodium bicarbonate and hydrochloric acid

"The reaction of HCl and NaHCO3 to form carbonic acid and sodium chloride is instantaneous; hence, sodium bicarbonate is a rapidly acting antacid (1). The decomposition of carbonic acid to CO2 (and water) accounts for the second characteristic effect of sodium bicarbonate when taken for indigestion, i.e., the facilitation of a belch. However, little is known about the rate of release of CO2 gas when sodium bicarbonate is added to a solution containing hydrochloric acid, and belching does not always follow ingestion of sodium bicarbonate.
The usual recommended dose of baking soda is one-half teaspoon which, if accurately measured, contains ~1.6 g of sodium bicarbonate."

Therefore, if you want to maximize the effect of sodium bicarbonate, it's more reliable to add it to a drink that doesn't fizz at all. It's a worth experimenting taking it just with a small amount of water (the bolded reaction will occur) and drinking the juice after the wards since they must no longer react.

I don't know why they claim that half of a teaspoon provides 1.6 g of sodium bicarbonate if an entire one carries 4.8 g or so (it varies, but not this much); it's more guaranteed then to weight your powder.

 

[Amazoniac]

For those of you who are shoving down bicarbonate, acetate, citrate, malate, caliwomate, constatinate, diokinate, jenniferate, yerragiate, while restricting chloride and finishing with brutal amounts of calcium and venom D, consider the following. I don't know how these occur in humanoids, but it can't be good.

- Effects of chronic metabolic alkalosis on Ca2+, PTH and 1,25(OH)2D3 in the rat

Spoiler: Procedures

"After a 2-day recovery period (day 2 of the experiment), animals were randomized and fed 15 g/day of either a normal or low-chloride diet (all diets Teklad, Madison, WI)."

"The normal chloride diet (NCl) contained 0.43% chloride, and the low-chloride diet (LCl) contained 0.01% chloride. Chloride was eliminated from LCl by the substitution of citrate for chloride. The combination of progressive chloride deficiency and the addition of the HCO; precursor citrate was expected to induce metabolic alkalosis in the growing rat (24)."

"By a second random allocation at the same time, some rats eating LCl received 75 mM NaHCO3 in their drinking water. The addition of NaHCO3 to a low-chloride diet should produce more severe alkalemia (24). Food and fluid intake were monitored daily, and any rat that ate <13 g of food or drank <15 ml of fluid was eliminated from the study."

From a gross calculation, I guess that's about 1.5% of sodium bicarbonate in the diet, something equivalent to 10 g sading boka for a 60 kg pimp. A teaspoon ist almost 5 g.

"The choice of dietary chloride restriction to induce chronic metabolic alkalosis in rats is based on previous experiments by Maddox and Gennari (24). With growth of the rat, incorporation of chloride into tissue decreases the chloride available for reabsorption by the renal tubule. As chloride is the only abundant readily reabsorbable anion, continued sodium reabsorption would require increased proton (and/or potassium) secretion to maintain luminal electroneutrality. Proton secretion into the tubule necessitates bicarbonate generation with subsequent release into the systemic circulation. Thus, in the growing rodent, alkalemia is generated and maintained by the progressive chloride deficiency. The substitution of all dietary chloride by the bicarbonate precursor, citrate, would be expected to increase the degree of alkalemia. When oral bicarbonate is added, the blood pH and bicarbonate rise further."

Here's what happened depending on diet:

Spoiler: Effects on serum and urine measurements

Read the publication for details, it's worth it.

- Urine test strip - Wikipedia

 

[Sheila]

Dear Amazoniac,
You become a stronger promoter of Goldilocks' Theorem every day - thank you.
Ever,
Sulphurous Sheila x

 

[Amazoniac]

Sometimes the person needs more sodium chloride but might be limited by the available bicarbonate: it's decreased as sodium chloride increases and might induce a mild acidosis if the person can't cope.

- Excess Magnesium Chloride Intake Causes Frank Acidosis​

This could be counteracted by supplemental bicarbonate, but since it tends to upset digestion, it's preferable to balance sodium chloride with the alkalinizing organic salts that only act once metabolized. Getting them all within the same meal is valuable because it helps to avoid imbalances (believe it or not, it does make a difference and it's often overlooked). Otherwise you'll throw the balance off with just one component, and by the time you provide the other, you're just amplifying what is already being corrected, having now an imbalance but on the opposite direction.

But returning to the idea of organic acids, acetate is a neat option because many people benefit from it (sometimes for not having enough). As you all know, it's possible to get it as sodium acetate and balance it with any chloride salt, but the problem is that acetate will be dependent on sodium, which in turn will have to be balanced by chloride; if sea salt has to be eaten according to cravings, you won't be able to control the desired amount of acetate because it's not isolated.

A better way to do it is getting it as magnesium acetate (depending on needs, calcium also works; extra sodium leads to calcium excretion) and leaving sodium chloride for sea salt (decreasing supplement use, having less risk of getting of more of one or the other without realizing and possibly obtaining some wicked minerals that might be desirable).

Other than having it separate and being able to adjust based on needs, these two minerals have the advantage of complexing with two acetate molecules (instead of one as in sodium acetate), so you won't need much of them, we're after acetate after all, but those are a bonus. This can serve as encouragement to get them in moderation because both have limitations in absorption, the efficiency decreases as the dose increases. Their excess that escapes digestion might complex with unwanted stuff and help in excretion, but it might also feed microbes. If you don't have digestive issues, the extra shouldn't be a concern, but it doesn't change the idea that it's more sustainable to have acetate separate.

It has antimicrobial effects and sodium chloride will potentialize this. They will also protect magnesium or calcium from microbial use (including forming those films). These are more reasons to have everything together.

- Sodium Acetate Induces a Metabolic Alkalosis but Not the Increase in Fatty Acid Oxidation Observed Following Bicarbonate Ingestion in Humans

It's worth reading, but hefty doses were used: about 10 g of sodium bicarbonate and sodium acetate (as trihydrate, with this weight being disconsidered for not having an impact).​

 

[Cirion]

So I confess I read only a small amount of this thread.

What is the general consensus? Get sodium, but not chloride? Is it just that salt is bad (chloride) but not sodium by itself or bonded to someone else, like say baking soda?

This could explain some of my problems if so. Maybe I have a functional sodium deficiency, but yet a chloride overload?

 

[InChristAlone]

This is too black and white. Some people need more salt than others and some will never have any side effects from salt.

 

[Amazoniac]

- Vomiting: a physiological response to acidosis?

"Hydrogen ion homeostasis is regulated primarily by the lungs and the kidneys. However, other organs also participate. The stomach may play an important role in acid-base balance [1], although this aspect is usually given little attention."

"Secretion of hydrochloric acid is a main function of the stomach, and the underlying cellular mechanisms have been elucidated in great detail [2]. Briefly, hydrogen ions are generated within the parietal cell from dissociation of water: H2O → H+ + OH−. The hydroxyl ions combine rapidly with carbon dioxide to generate bicarbonate ions, a reaction catalyzed by the enzyme carbonic anhydrase: OH− + CO2 → HCO3−. Bicarbonate ions are thereafter transported out of the parietal cell into the body at the basolateral membrane in exchange for chloride ions. Chloride and potassium ions are then co-transported into the gastric lumen at the apical membrane via conductance channels. Finally, hydrogen ions are transported into the gastric lumen in exchange for potassium ions through a ‘proton pump’ (H+/K+-ATPase). In summary, thus, the parietal cells secrete hydrogen ions into the ‘milieu extérieur’ and release bicarbonate ions into the ‘milieu intérieur’."

"The effects of parietal cell secretory activity can be measured as a decrease in the pH of gastric juice and an increase in the pH of blood, the latter being recognized as a physiological postprandial phenomenon denoted as the ‘alkaline tide’ [3]. In health, hydrogen and chloride ions secreted by parietal cells in the stomach will be reabsorbed by enterocytes in the small intestine. Hence, the ‘alkaline tide’ is a transient phenomenon and production of gastric juice has no overall influence on acid-base status. However, if small intestinal reabsorption of hydrogen and chloride ions is prevented, alkalosis will develop."

"Vomiting causes loss of hydrogen and chloride ions, and thereby allows the stomach to add new bicarbonate to the body (Figure 1). As a primary abnormality, this may be detrimental, causing ‘gastric alkalosis’ [4]. In acidosis, however, vomiting may be a favorable process, a compensatory mechanism reinforcing the renal response. Emesis occurs frequently in acidosis, and it is tempting to suggest that recruitment of the vomiting stomach, as a ‘base factory’, is indeed a physiological response."

Spoiler

"Although this idea is quite old [5], and removal of gastric juice has already been recommended as a treatment for acidosis [6], empirical evidence is sparse. Thus, future clinical investigations (e.g., to assess the prevalence of emesis in various acidotic and alkalotic conditions) and experimental studies (e.g., to determine the degree of acidosis necessary to trigger vomiting) should be encouraged."​

Just to clarify, I'm not encouraging anyone to do this. Well, at least not without preparing a vomelet (not a typo, but a link would guarantee me reports) from it and serving someone else.

 

[Owen B]

Thanks to Amazoniac for all these posts! There's an enormous amount of food for thought here. It's going to take me a while to try and sort things out.

 

[Amazoniac]

- Creatine: Far More Than a Performance Enhancer | Mitosterjohn (22:28 - Creatine acts as a pH buffer)

 

[Deleted member 5487]

Jeez. So I picked up up

High protein+ high alkaline fruits/veggies???

That’s a lot of dense info