The Age Pigment Lipofuscin And The Fountain Of Youth

[Richiebogie]

In a rare Ray Peat article which does not appear on his webpage we learn that the age pigment lipofuscin builds up in cells and correlates with age.

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While rodents live a year or two--and die in a much more hydrated state than people or animals that live approximately a century--at the end of a rodent's normal life span its cells (e.g., brain and heart) contain as much lipofuscin as the cells of century-old people do. Dogs accumulate lipofuscin about 5.5 times as fast as people do, and people live about 5.5 times as long as dogs. This is just what we might expect if lipofuscin is the "terminal toxin."

At the end of the article, Ray Peat recommends avoiding estrogen, excess iron and unsaturated fats.

He also recommends consuming fruit, low fat milk, coconut oil and vitamin e.

These are standard Peat recommendations, however he also suggests something I hadn't seen around:

In cultured brain cells, it was found that vitamin E and ethyl alcohol promote its disappearance. Since alcohol's toxic effects largely derive from its interactions with unsaturated oils and iron, a small amount of alcohol might be useful in clearing lipofuscin.

Anyone had any luck with a little e + alcohol therapy in order to dissolve age pigment from their cells and restore youth?

 

[michael94]

can't say I have but this is a very interesting topic, going to research into it a bit

 

[thebigpeatowski]

Anyone had any luck with a little e + alcohol therapy in order to dissolve age pigment from their cells and restore youth?

Anecdotal evidence, for whatever it's worth:

Three of my grandparents lived into their nineties in excellent health, able bodied and with beautiful skin. They all drank a bit of alcohol everyday (and ate real food). All three lived in very sunny climates (Palm Springs and Arizona) for many decades.

My one grandma that died early (in her late 60's) was a smoker, she had heart disease (died on the operating table) and had major wrinkles and dark spots on her skin from an early age. She was a heavier drinker and preferred whiskey.

My Palm springs grandparents drank vodka exclusively because it was less smelly, according to my grandma. It was my job to clear out her house after she died, she did have vitamin E capsules in her kitchen cupboard, I'm assuming she took them at least on occasion.

My own experience: I'm right-handed and whenever I use Progest-E topically on my face (daily) I always wipe the excess from my fingertips onto the backside of my left hand, been doing this in sort of an absent-minded fashion for two years now.

I noticed that my right hand, which does not get the Progest-E, looks older than my left hand. I don't drink alcohol everyday, but I've heard that it can help to sterilize the guts (lowering endotoxin), so maybe I'll give it a try and start rubbing either straight E or Progest-E on the back of my right hand in order to even things out. I should take pictures...

 

[Richiebogie]

Thanks for your response BigP. I also come from a family of 3 moderate drinking grandparents, and 1 weekly binger, though it was one of the moderates who died 20 years younger than the others.

I don't know which study looked at vitamin e + alcohol dissolving lipofuscin, but it could be that the quantities required are so low that our own systems convert enough OJ into alcohol to do the job!

Otherwise this time of year I will be getting the odd glass of champagne to dissolve away the liver spots as well as some of my liver too!

Do any pathology tests provide a lipofuscin equivalent age on your tissues? Eg. 100 could mean Game Over, at least for that particular tissue region..

(Could this be an area for Haidut to branch into?)

 

[Ewelina]

Since starting peating about 3 years ago I have developed many liver spots mainly on my arms and legs. This could be related to sun exposure, as I stopped avoiding sun, but living in London this doesn't seem to be the case. It's really puzzling because I took special care to limit drastically pufas and to eat loads of oranges and other friut. Also my meat consumption dropped, so I should have lower levels of iron then before. I don't understand why this is happening. Unfortunately topical (or internal) progesterone didn't help at all, which I've been using for over 2 years. I might try a bit of vodka internally, but alcohol is estrogenic and always gives me migraines.

PS. I've been using ethanol in water and aspirin on my face for a year and no visible improvement.

 

[Richiebogie]

Hi Ewelina,

That is not the result I would hope for after 3 years either!

Most of Peat's recommendations are based on stress reduction.

However stress from exercise can make us fitter and look younger.

It could be that there are optimal amounts of various unpeat foods that we need.

I read that some veggies, bacteria and worms antagonise us but make us stronger, like exercise!

Since March I have given up sardines, salmon, peanuts, other legumes, tree nuts, seeds, biscuits, non-tropical vegetable oils, wheat, beer.

I have reduced chicken, lamb, beef, fish, broccoli, cauliflower, rice, avocado and wine.

Cheese, chocolate, tomato, banana and honey remain the same.

I have increased coffee, potato, mango, raspberries, cherries, orange juice, low fat milk, oysters, raw sugar, jam, coconut, chicken liver pate.

I was expecting to be able to leap tall buildings in a single bound by now, so I am still open to making a few tweaks...

We may need to interrogate a few healthy old strangers for some clues!

 

[mujuro]

I am told repeatedly by people I meet that I look much older than I am, but they assure me that it's a positive trait. I am in my 20s but they say I look a lot more mature than this, often estimating early 30s. Not sure if this is a pathological symptom, or if it's just a fluke. I believe it's my prominent jawline and high cheekbones which fools so many.

On the alcohol thing: I know we don't worship at the altar of Neo-Darwinism here, but maybe the alcohol reducing the age pigment is a fortunate accident of having access to optimal food sources i.e. like sugars in fruits. Some yeasts convert the sugars into EtOH, so it makes sense that if sugars are the optimal energy source, further benefits are reaped by a gut microbiome that takes these sugars and uses them to extend their host's lifespan. Mutual benefits, and healthy fruit prolonging lifespan. If I'm onto something, it's another Peat validation that fruits and sugars are the optimal source of CHO nutrition. Am I making sense?

 

[Ewelina]

Hi Richiebogie
I agree. In my case lipofuscin is definitely related to estrogen. My maternal grandmother (she is going to be 90 next year) had always awful skin. She has had liver problems and pains so maybe it is somehow related to her bad skin (liver spots being the least of her problems). She is also hypothyroid.

There are so many variables that have to be taken into account. I see many improvements since peating but this one seams worse. I am not going to give up! I'm all the time experimenting with different things and I'm absolutely certain that sooner or later I am going to find the answer. Then of course I will share it with other fellow peatarians

 

[sladerunner69]

Lysine works great in this context

 

[Miggie]

Lysine works great in this context

So lysine actually removes moles and age spots according to your experience?

 

[Peata]

I had good result with niacinamide a couple years back. It appeared to have helped removed some estrogen-induced spot. I just thought my skin looked nicer on it too. Maybe it had something to do with it being calming. I stopped taking it regularly because it would give me bad headaches. I'm planning to start back on it soon as my lower dose pills arrive. Then I will probably try 100 mg. 3 x day. I'm doing it for it's other benefits, but skin would be a bonus.

 

[Jared]

I've actually been doing this off and on for the past few years with no visible improvement. I've tried different alcohols and vitamin e combinations as well.

 

[YourUniverse]

Anyone had any luck with a little e + alcohol therapy in order to dissolve age pigment from their cells and restore youth?

Bump. Can anyone expand on this?

 

[Jared]

@jamies33
Like I said above, I've had no luck with alcohol and/or vitamin E. I've tried many different combinations off and on for 5+ years. I've purchased Haidut's SolBan and tried that off and on as well. I think the SolBan might be fading a few of them, but it's hard to tell. I've recently started making my own formulation of SolBan because it seems that the more I use the better the results. I've been using the larger quantities of SolBan for about a month so time will tell if this is actually what was fading some of the spots.

I'm sure someone's already posted this email of Ray's, but it shows that a lot of the things I've tried should be broadly effective for whatever the spots may be.

Ray Peat on lipofuscin (email):

Yes, the body can clear lipofuscin gradually when it stops reforming, and vitamin E helps.

Some skin pigmentation is neither melanin nor lipofuscin. Ordinary alcohol, such as vodka, can have an effect similar to vitamin E, if it's lipofuscin. Niacinamide is effective if it's melanin. Caffeine and aspirin help with other types of skin discoloration.

 

[YourUniverse]

@jamies33
Like I said above, I've had no luck with alcohol and/or vitamin E. I've tried many different combinations off and on for 5+ years. I've purchased Haidut's SolBan and tried that off and on as well. I think the SolBan might be fading a few of them, but it's hard to tell. I've recently started making my own formulation of SolBan because it seems that the more I use the better the results. I've been using the larger quantities of SolBan for about a month so time will tell if this is actually what was fading some of the spots.

I'm sure someone's already posted this email of Ray's, but it shows that a lot of the things I've tried should be broadly effective for whatever the spots may be.

Ray Peat on lipofuscin (email):

Yes, the body can clear lipofuscin gradually when it stops reforming, and vitamin E helps.

Some skin pigmentation is neither melanin nor lipofuscin. Ordinary alcohol, such as vodka, can have an effect similar to vitamin E, if it's lipofuscin. Niacinamide is effective if it's melanin. Caffeine and aspirin help with other types of skin discoloration.

Hmm. Im less concerned with skin discoloration than I am with the pigment affecting other cells, namely the organs and especially the brain.

Do you think niacinamide/caffeine/aspirin could be helpful when ingested [for the purposes of lipfuscin removal]? Could the benefits spread to these other areas? I havent tried that combo topically yet. For example, is he saying that alcohol (vodka) applied topically could help? Or ingested alcohol? Thanks for the informative reply!

 

[Jared]

I've mainly been paying attention to the studies and information that report affects for lipofuscin on the skin, but it seems that whatever works for the skin/eyes/etc. seems to work for the brain/internally/etc.

I do believe I've seen a study saying that alcohol could be effective internally as well as externally, but I can't remember where. I think there's a few threads talking about this on the forum. Here's a post from Haidut that refers to it.

I did, and I will change the title to "benign for the liver" as that is what the study focused on. The current title implies alcohol is systemically benign, which I did not mean to imply. Interestingly, in lower doses of 1-2 drinks a day it has been shown to dissolve lipofuscin, and is one of the few known chemicals to do that in humans. I think the "safe" amounts will be different for everybody but in people with ALDH deficiency or any other condition leading to buildup of acetaldehyde it will probably be a mostly harmful effect. Long term alcohol consumption has serotonergic effects through 5-HT3 and that is certainly not good, but at the 1-2 drinks daily dose I think most people metabolize it too quickly to cause damage.
Anyways, title changed so it should be clearer now.

I do believe that niacin amide/caffeine/aspirin would be helpful internally, but I would have to search through my notes to say for sure. If you were only concerned with internal lipofuscin I don't think I would waste time or money applying it to the skin.

I believe there's a link to a study on the forum that talks about vitamin b2 being effective at preventing liposfuscin formation and possibly helping to dissolve/degrade it.

 

[foodandtheworld]

@Jared , have you tried methylene blue with vitamin C? Or vitamin b2?

Methylene blue:
I saw haidut and someone else mention using topical methylene blue for lipofuscin:
Methylene Blue (MB) Is A Potent Aromatase Inhibitor

But I read that applied by itself, it can stain the skin temporarily (not good if it's your face). But apparently if it is mixed with vitamin C, it would lose its color/not stain?

I haven't tried it myself but came across it while researching ideas on how to remove LP. My father has some that he'd like to get rid of.

Nitric Oxide, KMUD 2014
But, in recent years, the old dye, it was used as a treatment for malaria 100 years ago, called methylene blue, it's a common lab chemical used for showing the presence of a reducing compound, for example, Vitamin C, turns it white.
​

I saw someone mentioning it here but I don't think they followed up: Ideas For Taking Methylene Blue Without Staining My Dental Fillings?

Vitamin B2:
I also read about B2 being used to treat lipofuscin:
Vitamin B2 (riboflavin) Reduces Lipofuscin, May Extend Lifespan
Haidut writes his "guess is the scaling factor would be about 1/10, so a dose of 20mg - 25mg daily in humans should replicate the design of the study."

Vitamin B2 (riboflavin) Reduces Lipofuscin, May Extend Lifespan​

But also cautions taking B2 in isolation "seems to cause issues for some people and when taken in combination with the other B vitamins the issues often disappear."

Vitamin B2 (riboflavin) Reduces Lipofuscin, May Extend Lifespan​

One forum member "HLP" seemed to have good results with it:
"Also, I have used P5P Riboflavin for age spots quite successfully."

Age Pigment: Cause And Effect Of Aging And Stress​

"Riboflavin P5P has caused some of my "age spots" to dry up and fall off."

Ageless Peater
​

"36.5 mg daily P5P Riboflavin (Thorne)"

Ageless Peater​

I am curious to see if anyone has had success with either MB or B2.

 

[foodandtheworld]

Interesting study on methylene blue and lipofuscin:
Morphological studies of the pigment present in the seminal vesicles of orchidectomized hamsters, and the preventive action of vitamin E and methyl... - PubMed - NCBI

Authors studies the histological and electromicroscopical picture of the seminal vesicles of hamsters after orchidectomy, after orchidectomy and Vitamin E feeding and after orchidectomy and Methylene Blue treatment. They states that 120 days after orchidectomy large amounts of lipofuscin and lamellar structures, myelin-like forms developed in the cytoplasm of the epithelial cells and macrophages of the seminal vesicles. Vitamin E feeding inhibited the appearance of lipofuscin, while Methylene Blue significantly reduced the amount of lipofuscin.
​

Another study where methylene blue is mentioned in the treatment of lipofuscin:
Vitamin E and methylene blue in the prevention of abnormal pigmentation in the seminal vesicles of the castrated golden hamster. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Jared]

@Jared , have you tried methylene blue with vitamin C? Or vitamin b2?

Methylene blue:
I saw haidut and someone else mention using topical methylene blue for lipofuscin:
Methylene Blue (MB) Is A Potent Aromatase Inhibitor

But I read that applied by itself, it can stain the skin temporarily (not good if it's your face). But apparently if it is mixed with vitamin C, it would lose its color/not stain?

I haven't tried it myself but came across it while researching ideas on how to remove LP. My father has some that he'd like to get rid of.

Nitric Oxide, KMUD 2014
But, in recent years, the old dye, it was used as a treatment for malaria 100 years ago, called methylene blue, it's a common lab chemical used for showing the presence of a reducing compound, for example, Vitamin C, turns it white.
​

I saw someone mentioning it here but I don't think they followed up: Ideas For Taking Methylene Blue Without Staining My Dental Fillings?

Vitamin B2:
I also read about B2 being used to treat lipofuscin:
Vitamin B2 (riboflavin) Reduces Lipofuscin, May Extend Lifespan
Haidut writes his "guess is the scaling factor would be about 1/10, so a dose of 20mg - 25mg daily in humans should replicate the design of the study."

Vitamin B2 (riboflavin) Reduces Lipofuscin, May Extend Lifespan​

But also cautions taking B2 in isolation "seems to cause issues for some people and when taken in combination with the other B vitamins the issues often disappear."

Vitamin B2 (riboflavin) Reduces Lipofuscin, May Extend Lifespan​

One forum member "HLP" seemed to have good results with it:
"Also, I have used P5P Riboflavin for age spots quite successfully."

Age Pigment: Cause And Effect Of Aging And Stress​

"Riboflavin P5P has caused some of my "age spots" to dry up and fall off."

Ageless Peater
​

"36.5 mg daily P5P Riboflavin (Thorne)"

Ageless Peater​

I am curious to see if anyone has had success with either MB or B2.

I actually should be receiving some Methylene Blue in the mail tomorrow. I haven't tried any before. I was thinking I was first going to try taking it internally and then maybe try some topically later on.

I've tried using some of IdeaLabs Energin on the spots with no effect, but I didn't do it for very long so it's not a real accurate representation of it's potential.

I appreciate your post! It's nice to have all of that information condensed and in one place.

 

[foodandtheworld]

Good luck with the MB -- please share your experience here if you notice anything from it skin wise.

This article seems pretty optimistic about its potential in aiding skin health: Anti-Aging Potentials of Methylene Blue for Human Skin Longevity