Metabolic Stability Vs Metabolic Rate

[Ahanu]

Maybe the metabolic rate is not so important after all. Mathematician/biologist Lloyd Demetrius suggested that the most important factor involved in duration of life is not metabolic rate or oxidative stress, but metabolic stability.
"Evolutionary biologist Lloyd Demetrius believes that life-span potential is related to an organism’s ability to maintain stable levels of critical cellular metabolites, not to its metabolic rate. The traditional theory that longevity and rate of aging are determined by metabolic rate and the rate of production of free radicals has had broad appeal as an explanationfor why some animals live longer than others. But numerous exceptions to this rule (including the FIRKO mouse) have undermined the idea over time."
The Aging Enigma

Has anyono looked into the work Lloyd Demetrius ?

 

[paymanz]

Fat-specific insulin receptor knockout mice, that means they can't absorb glucose in their fat cells?

Interesting,how that can connect to longevity?

 

[Tarmander]

I am actually coming to find this true. I will write about it at some point, but using supplements to push on your metabolism when you can't take them for the long term can be detrimental.

 

[chispas]

Doesn't the body automatically do this? Homeostasis?

 

[Queequeg]

Interesting paper. I looked further into this theory and found a couple other papers just on metabolic stability.

A New Theory on Longevity
What Determines Longevity: Metabolic Rate or Stability? - S. Jay Olshansky - Discovery Medicine

My understanding is that rodents being more opportunistic and having less control of their environment have a much less stable metabolism. Humans on the other hand have a higher metabolic stability so this theory doesn't do much for us since we cant really raise our stability much more. I think he is trying to explain some of the anomalies in rate of living tests across species.

"The bad news (or perhaps good news, depending on your fondness for food) is that our already high metabolic stability means caloric restriction will not lead to dramatic life extension, as it does for mice." "A New Theory on Longevity

 

[Ahanu]

"The bad news (or perhaps good news, depending on your fondness for food) is that our already high metabolic stability means caloric restriction will not lead to dramatic life extension, as it does for mice."

I like that

 

[Waynish]

This is why I think caffeine causes problems for many people. Anything we have to cycle off of could be "increasing metabolic rate" - but not necessarily sustainably.
Now that I think about it - there should be some way to indicate with these Peatarian advice that "x substance increases metabolic rate [in this time frame]." Increasing metabolic rate isn't itself a goal, is it? For example, don't adrenaline, cocaine, and Adderall "increase metabolic rate"?

 

[Queequeg]

This is why I think caffeine causes problems for many people. Anything we have to cycle off of could be "increasing metabolic rate" - but not necessarily sustainably.
Now that I think about it - there should be some way to indicate with these Peatarian advice that "x substance increases metabolic rate [in this time frame]." Increasing metabolic rate isn't itself a goal, is it? For example, don't adrenaline, cocaine, and Adderall "increase metabolic rate"?

I agree. I think raising metabolic rate or temps is a big mistake. The vast majority of research on humans says that higher metabolisms lead to shorter longevity.

I go into it in more on this thread. "Higher Metabolism, Temperature And Pulse And Lower TSH Associated With Higher Mortality".

 

[Waynish]

Anyone have a conversation with Ray about this? I'd be curious about his rebuttal to this reading of his paradigm.

 

[Ahanu]

My understanding is that rodents being more opportunistic and having less control of their environment have a much less stable metabolism. Humans on the other hand have a higher metabolic stability so this theory doesn't do much for us since we cant really raise our stability much more. I think he is trying to explain some of the anomalies in rate of living tests across species.

well the conclusion of the scientists is that "If the metabolic stability hypothesis is correct, efforts to intervene in the aging process should be directed at finding ways to increase the stability of the steady state values of ROS, increase the robustness of metabolic networks, or improve the stability of antioxidant enzymes"

so i think this could get quite interesting for us peaters..

 

[Queequeg]

well the conclusion of the scientists is that "If the metabolic stability hypothesis is correct, efforts to intervene in the aging process should be directed at finding ways to increase the stability of the steady state values of ROS, increase the robustness of metabolic networks, or improve the stability of antioxidant enzymes"

so i think this could get quite interesting for us peaters..

I think the key word is "if." I didn't really see any evidence that the metabolic stability theory is correct. I think it is just one more hypothesis to explain why rodents have the opposite response to high metabolism that we do. There are other theories that explain this as well, such as mitochondrial uncoupling.

I still think most researchers believe that human life-span is increased by lowered metabolisms. Ray has said that we should aim to have the high metabolism of children because they are so healthy. True, but children also age much more quickly and dramatically then we do. Why would we want that once we are fully grown.

Also science has confirmed that meditation and yoga are both health promoting and increases longevity. Both have been shown to dramatically lower basal metabolic rates.
Yoga's Age-Defying Effects Confirmed by Science
Slow Down and Live Longer

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[Giraffe]

Also science has confirmed that meditation and yoga are both health promoting and increases longevity. Both have been shown to dramatically lower basal metabolic rates.
Yoga's Age-Defying Effects Confirmed by Science

Additionally, the senior age group had highest levels of cortisol and adrenocorticotrophic hormone (ACTH), both of which decreased following yogic practice.

 

[Queequeg]

"Additionally, the senior age group had highest levels of cortisol and adrenocorticotrophic hormone (ACTH), both of which decreased following yogic practice."

Lets not forget the rest of the observed changes:

"The observed significant differences between the younger and older participants in the study, specifically: "Significantly higher values of heart rate (HR), blood pressure (BP), load in heart (DoP), myocardial oxygen consumption (RPP), and total cholesterol (TC) were noted in senior age group." The yogic practice resulted in significant reductions in all of these parameters (HR, BP, DoP, RPP and TC)."

Yoga is well known to reduce metabolism as well as stress levels. Here are a few more studies.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3144606/\
The main result of this study is that the yoga group had significantly lower metabolic rates at two different times of the day, i.e., 6 a.m. and 9 p.m. when compared to the non-yoga group. The yoga training had a beneficial effect on metabolism in general as seen in the lowered metabolic rate of the yoga group at 9 p.m. and reduced EE/kg body weight suggesting greater metabolic efficiency.

The effect of long term combined yoga practice on the basal metabolic rate of healthy adults
This study shows that there is a significantly reduced BMR, probably linked to reduced arousal, with the long term practice of yoga using a combination of stimulatory and inhibitory yogic practices.

And as I said before the majority of research shows that lower metabolisms in humans are associated with increases in longevity.

 

[Xisca]

Doesn't the body automatically do this? Homeostasis?

Yes that's right... up to the point it Works well in the autonomic system. That is why I have often spoken of the Somatic Experiening method, because it helps homeostasis.
If some of your energy is kept running on old activations, that you could call memories, then you have less energy available to deal with your personal body homeostasis. Any event is considered finished and over for the body only when the related sympathic activation has gone down.
So we have a lot of unavailable energy in our bodies, and yoga or meditation helps by dealing with this.

 

[Waynish]

I see an unwillingness to get specific on this topic. Isn't the next step to classify tissues and pathways that get sped up at various rates with various forms of deterioration. For example, increasing the metabolism in the liver is not the same as increasing it in other tissues. And what is the difference in Peat's philosophy between "getting enough Co2 when it is deficient" and "increasing the metabolism using Co2." A distinction could be made, but I don't see it done consistently. And therefore, this extends into indecisive definitions of "deficiency." Is a deficiency is anything that can be supplemented to increase activity in a "normal" metabolic pathway? Indeed this is what calling a caffeine a "thyroid surrogate" would imply one means...