Realising Counselling And Exercise Is Not Helping CFS

[energyandstruct]

Maffetone training seems to be a solution then, ie monitoring your heart rate during exertion and making sure it stays below around 180 - age, and not increasing the intensity of your workouts over time more than that your heart rate stays in this range. I'm guessing that the reason graded exercise therapy has not been very effective for CFS in general is because it does not consistently emphasize heart rate monitoring to make sure people stay in their true aerobic zone.

Is there any data about the background of people who develop CFS, if they are athletic or sedentary to a greater or lesser extent than the general population?

idk about data but anecdotally, I was a pretty solid distance runner in high school and ran probably more than is healthy, from the time I was in middle school more sporadically, to intense running schedules when i was in high school. did this on and off more sporadically in college but wasn't sedentary, although there were many stressors in college that could've weakened me. Lyme was initial trigger of CFS. I know there's a lot of iffy stuff with various lyme tests and some quacks in the field, but this was really just an open-and-shut lyme case, with fever, bullseye, positive tests.

decent percentage of ppl on CFS forums seem to have been bodybuilders or active in some way.

 

[Collden]

I think some people with CFS do do this, but many don't ever get to someone who's specialized in this and tbh I think just for the most part intuitively knowing ur limits works similarly, I'm good at estimating my heart rate

Yes I've noticed that staying in the "Maffetone" heart rate range puts me at an exercise intensity that I could comfortably maintain almost indefinitely, whereas going above it quickly causes mild stress symptoms like hypoglycaemia, weakness and fatigue, so if you learn to notice what a healthy intensity should feel like you could do it. But I think most people just power through these kind of stress symptoms and or even assume that exercising should involve feeling like that to be effective.

Many endurance trainers who follow this kind of heart rate zone philosophy have observed that people tend to automatically push themselves quite a bit above the truly aerobic range if they dont monitor their intensity, so its no surprise if for most people long distance running ends up wrecking their health.

 

[energyandstruct]

Yes I've noticed that staying in the "Maffetone" heart rate range puts me at an exercise intensity that I could comfortably maintain almost indefinitely, whereas going above it quickly causes mild stress symptoms like hypoglycaemia, weakness and fatigue. I think most people just power through these kind of feelings and or even assume that exercising should involve feeling like that to be effective.

Many endurance trainers who follow this kind of heart rate zone philosophy have observed that people tend to automatically push themselves quite a bit above the truly aerobic range if they dont monitor their intensity, so its no surprise if for most people long distance running ends up wrecking their health.

I think yeah heart rate monitoring could probably help people not exceed their limits. Being strict about pacing isn't fully curative but I'm sure that in my case it would be beneficial and allow for less pain and crashes.

 

[Herbie]

When I was younger and dumber I worked as personal trainer, almost a decade ago now, people who were obese or middle aged office people, just walking on the treadmill would get the heart rate up above 160 within a few minutes, this is the reality for most people, most people would get incredible delayed muscle pain for 7-10 days after doing 10 body weight squats that’s all, I assume from lactic acid. I am a gentle man and would encourage people to take it easy and ease into it but people want to be punished and demoralized, the psychology of the fitness industry is sickening.

 

[Blossom]

Just curious, what do you think caused CFS in your case, and how did you recover from it?

I had a body fluid exposure at work where a guy's life support breathing circuit and the week old condensation it contained was sprayed directly on my face. He was a burn victim and had klebsiella pneumonia. I ended up with a very high titer of Epstein Barr. Truthfully though I wasn't doing stellar before that happened and had untreated celiac and hypothyroidism so I think I was vulnerable due to poor health and stress.
I suffered with it for 13 years and I consider myself healed from it now for 5-6 years.

I feel my recovery can mostly be attributed to treating the celiac disease, working toward healing metabolism and thyroid and having a never give up attitude. Even though I'm better now I still stay mindful of pacing myself, eating well and getting adequate sleep. I cherish everyday and feel eternally grateful for my recovery. Sorry to get sentimental about it but I never thought I'd feel normal again. I don't think of those years often anymore but when I do it's hard to believe that was once my life.

 

[Wagner83]

I understand - I completely crashed my metabolism through gym. Body building is not healthy exercise.

Aside from the competing aspect of bodybuilding, which may be what you are referring to, I don't see why it would be negative. There's the increased need for proteins which may come with its drawbacks.

 

[sunraiser]

Aside from the competing aspect of bodybuilding, which may be what you are referring to, I don't see why it would be negative. There's the increased need for proteins which may come with its drawbacks.

Because it's arbitrary building of muscle based on either image, self discipline or both. It completely removes the intuition from exercise. I'm at a point where I understand the value of pushing myself in the right context but bodybuilding doesn't fall into that.

Weights or bodyweight, if it feels good in the process, I'm sure can enhance health. For example weighted dips and pulls/chins often used to feel really good, but squats almost never did (even bodyweight).

I think carrying lots of muscle also puts metabolic pressure on the body to sustain and while it creates more resilience in some ways, it seems to create less in others.

Everyone finds their own path though, and if a person can truthfully and reflectively saying it's a wholesome and soundly rooted practice for them then they should probably keep doing it :)

 

[Runenight201]

So I watched this and I thought for a second...hmmm maybe RP is wrong about the PUFAs

I took 4 caps of fish oil (whatever her recommendation was) -- my skin got super oily, started shedding hair, just looked disgusting.

She can probably get away with it because women have some protective hormones that prevent hair loss to that extent.

Fish Oil has to be the biggest scam.

Because it's arbitrary building of muscle based on either image, self discipline or both. It completely removes the intuition from exercise. I'm at a point where I understand the value of pushing myself in the right context but bodybuilding doesn't fall into that.

Weights or bodyweight, if it feels good in the process, I'm sure can enhance health. For example weighted dips and pulls/chins often used to feel really good, but squats almost never did (even bodyweight).

I think carrying lots of muscle also puts metabolic pressure on the body to sustain and while it creates more resilience in some ways, it seems to create less in others.

Everyone finds their own path though, and if a person can truthfully and reflectively saying it's a wholesome and soundly rooted practice for them then they should probably keep doing it :)

For the most part though very little people who do it are able to stay wholesome about bodybuilding. Most men and even women who engage in it are very vain, constantly comparing themselves to others. Even the top youtube powerlifters, which is a sport where body imagine is not even thought about and raw strength is, start dieting and changing their lifting practices to fit in with what is the 'ideal' look.

Bodybuilding promotes body dysmorphia and poor health. Natties will never be good enough unless they use steroids, and the constant dieting is very questionable. On top of that, in general, the advice for most people getting into resistance training is to hit the big 3 5x5 program without taking into account that unless someone had a very athletic background, they probably move terribly and that system will set them up for muscular imbalances, compensations, and eventual injury. The lack of emphasis on cardiorespiratory fitness for pure muscle size is also concerning. Just watch on youtube of all the big bodybuilders...literally all of them are out breath walking around having an interview. It's very shocking to see.

Want to see exercise in its purest form? A kid playing in a playground, tag with their friends, swinging on the swings, wrestling in the yard, etc....This is how the body is meant to be built up, it engages all the muscles, trains new neuromuscular patterns, engages and strengthens the core, builds the cardiorespiratory system, etc... and its incredibly fun. When their tired, playtime is over and they go eat and take a satisfying nap. You even see animals in the wild engage in the same type of play, slowly training their bodies to move properly and quickly.

I think if we emphasized moving properly (but not that bastardized functional movement crap), focusing on crawling, climbing, wrestling, and yes even the dreaded running and swimming, people would feel a lot better and also not push themselves past what their body can actually handle. The musculature would develop concurrently with the cardiorespiratory fitness, so that people could actually jog around the block and not feel like crap while doing it. Most people (except disabled children), all knew how to crawl/squat/run and move properly at one point, but we all forgot how to do it because we sit around 24/7 training developing our intellectual mind but let our physical body become inept and crumble.

I'm starting to sound like David Belle

 

[lollipop]

people want to be punished and demoralized, the psychology of the fitness industry is sickening.

No kidding. In US these extreme punishing types of workouts that promote low carb are the rage:

CrossFit
Orange Therapy
Extreme Pilates machine (forgot the name)

I see a lot of men and women in their 40’s going after these because they are having a hard time keeping fit as their body ages. I can see it tearing them down systemically, but they are happy because they look fit, cut etc.

 

[Blossom]

I see a lot of men and women in their 40’s going after these because they are having a hard time keeping fit as their body ages. I can see it tearing them down systemically, but they are happy because they look fit, cut etc.

I know, I just want to warn them of their impending crash but I stopped doing that because no one wants to hear it. It's one of those things you have to experience for yourself I suppose...

 

[lollipop]

I know, I just want to warn them of their impending crash but I stopped doing that because no one wants to hear it. It's one of those things you have to experience for yourself I suppose...

Right?!?! Grrrgh...hard to stay silent but I manage - lol. Also I have no credibility with them because I am not cut and fit in that way. I am, however, healthy and I look 10 yrs younger than them though I am like 5yrs older.
Go figure ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Blossom]

Right?!?! Grrrgh...hard to stay silent but I manage - lol. Also I have no credibility with them because I am not cut and fit in that way. I am, however, healthy and I look 10 yrs younger than them though I am like 5yrs older.
Go figure ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yay! That's wonderful Lisa.
My SIL didn't like it when someone thought we were the same age because I'm 10 years her senior. She is very attractive but I think pounding the treadmill and avoiding carbs is stressing her out. I certainly looked and felt older eating low carb and doing punishing exercise.

 

[somuch4food]

Have you tried the acetate forms? Not that chloride isn't helping you, but the correction should be from the repletion of catias. And if this applies, perhaps it's worth having part as acetate and the other part as chlorid.

Can you explain the part about repletion of catias? I can't find anything when googling.

 

[lollipop]

Yay! That's wonderful Lisa.
My SIL didn't like it when someone thought we were the same age because I'm 10 years her senior. She is very attractive but I think pounding the treadmill and avoiding carbs is stressing her out. I certainly looked and felt older eating low carb and doing punishing exercise.

Love it! @Blossom Also there is this woman in one of the Ray Peat groups on FB named Cathy. She inspires me sooooo much. She was obese, in her 50’s or 60’s and had every imaginable illness. People ridiculed her for following Peat’s ideas. She even gained more weight in the beginning. Just imagine how much she was ridiculed. But she knew inside Peat was accurate. She kept at it. It took her 7 years to start having dramatic results. Now she has lost a bunch, healed her illnesses, bought a motorcycle-lol. She said she is watching all those that laughed at her falling apart. She said she thinks her starting point was so bad, it took her a long time to heal. When the body felt healed, nourished and ready, it reversed everything fairly fast. Telling really. I think many people don’t give Peat’s ideas enough time and get nervous if at first they get a bit worse or gain weight etc., and stop too soon.

 

[Blossom]

Love it! @Blossom Also there is this woman in one of the Ray Peat groups on FB named Cathy. She inspires me sooooo much. She was obese, in her 50’s or 60’s and had every imaginable illness. People ridiculed her for following Peat’s ideas. She even gained more weight in the beginning. Just imagine how much she was ridiculed. But she knew inside Peat was accurate. She kept at it. It took her 7 years to start having dramatic results. Now she has lost a bunch, healed her illnesses, bought a motorcycle-lol. She said she is watching all those that laughed at her falling apart. She said she thinks her starting point was so bad, it took her a long time to heal. When the body felt healed, nourished and ready, it reversed everything fairly fast. Telling really. I think many people don’t give Peat’s ideas enough time and get nervous if at first they get a bit worse or gain weight etc., and stop too soon.

What a beautiful story! Tell Cathy congratulations for me. Next month will be 5 years for me and I'm still improving although things started rapidly changing in years 3-4 so I completely relate and agree that sometimes patience and perseverance is needed.

 

[lollipop]

What a beautiful story! Tell Cathy congratulations for me. Next month will be 5 years for me and I'm still improving although things started rapidly changing in years 3-4 so I completely relate and agree that sometimes patience and perseverance is needed.

 

[somuch4food]

I think CFS is something you have to live through yourself before you really get it. I'm sure there are compassionate people out there but I mostly experienced an attitude from others that I was just depressed or lazy!

Sometimes the attitude doesn't even come from others. I have struggled with my levels of energy since puberty. It never was to the point that I was bedridden, but whenever I start something that would fulfill me there comes a time when I crash and lose all motivation.

I always thought that I was a lazy person and that I needed to be more organized or that I should work harder. Ray Peat opened my eyes that things could be better.

 

[Blossom]

Sometimes the attitude doesn't even come from others. I have struggled with my levels of energy since puberty. It never was to the point that I was bedridden, but whenever I start something that would fulfill me there comes a time when I crash and lose all motivation.

I always thought that I was a lazy person and that I needed to be more organized or that I should work harder. Ray Peat opened my eyes that things could be better.

I'm glad you have realized that things can be better.
Do you think the attitude of the people around you had any influence on how you perceived yourself as lazy though?
I know my husband comes from a family of workaholics and he always asks me when I'm off work what I'm going to do for the day?!? There's an unspoken expectation that you must be doing something productive. I have to encourage him to take a day of rest. I think that made my feeling of being lazy when I had CFS worse than it might have been otherwise. On the other hand I might not have fought so hard and persistently to get better if I hadn't felt the pressure to function at a higher level.

 

[somuch4food]

Do you think the attitude of the people around you had any influence on how you perceived yourself as lazy though?

Thankfully, my parents are not the pushy type. I was never forced to do what I did not want to do. They were just asking that I get a good education (they are farmers). Getting good grades was easy for me. I did get told that I should aim higher/study more to get a better paying job by some relatives, but my parents were ok with my laidback behavior to just do enough to get things done.

My perceived lazyness comes from a head full of dreams without the energy to act on them.

 

[SQu]

She was obese, in her 50’s or 60’s and had every imaginable illness. People ridiculed her for following Peat’s ideas. She even gained more weight in the beginning. Just imagine how much she was ridiculed. But she knew inside Peat was accurate. She kept at it. It took her 7 years to start having dramatic results. Now she has lost a bunch, healed her illnesses, bought a motorcycle-lol. She said she is watching all those that laughed at her falling apart. She said she thinks her starting point was so bad, it took her a long time to heal. When the body felt healed, nourished and ready, it reversed everything fairly fast. Telling really. I think many people don’t give Peat’s ideas enough time and get nervous if at first they get a bit worse or gain weight etc., and stop too soon.

You just wrote my story except for the motorcycle!!! And I was 10 years younger. It has been very, very tough to be patient. What kept me going was lack of a convincing alternative. Certainly not going to drop this one for something less scientific, less rational and more patronising. (Just the last one would have kept me here!)

My perceived lazyness comes from a head full of dreams without the energy to act on them.

Absolutely true. Reassess our personality even, in light of what we are finding is just an energy problem!