Bicarbonate Vs. PaCO2 Blood Tests

[Makrosky]

WOW! Amazing thread. Amazing discussion. I never saw this thread by 2015, I just saw it today and had to read it all at once from beginning to end. Still too many things floating on my mind. Gotta think about it all.

@gbolduev , are you still on the forum ?

 

[lollipop]

WOW! Amazing thread. Amazing discussion. I never saw this thread by 2015, I just saw it today and had to read it all at once from beginning to end. Still too many things floating on my mind. Gotta think about it all.

@gbolduev , are you still on the forum ?

 

[HealthisWealth]

Haidut

Low energy will be in hypo or hypermetabolism since in both you will have sugar problems . In one insulin resistance and in second hypoglycemia.

Can you provide studies where aspirin increases ceruloplasmin or thyroid increases ceruloplasmin please

Also I read in this article that without thyroid you dont retain copper.that is why he gives high copper diet, oranges, liver

It said nothing about ceruloplasmin. Actually ceruloplasm is controled by adrenal glands, and rises with estrogen . You have low estrogen low ceruloplasmin which again contradicts Peat.


Also it is funny how you say thyroid is the issue)))) Thyroid can have 10-15 types of imbalances.

Try to give thyroid to some one with weak adrenals)))) YOUR ferritin will skyrocket. WHY? your body will try to take all iron out of blood to stop thyroid


Pregnenolone and DHEA are ok for a man . It is beleived they chelate copper by actually binding it with ceruloplasmin. And actually when you have low adrenals because of high cortisol they can help .

But the thing is , why do you have high cortisol . Is it cushings or is it pancreas. That is the thing. it is definetely not stress or because you dont eat protein. EVERYONE eat too much protein usually


Does cortisol substitute for low thyroid? but then your TSH would be up not down, but in chronic fatique it can be low and high . LOw is when you are protein deficient , high is when you have thyroid problem which can be solved with zinc or selenium may be.

Hi i read about post subclinical hypothyrodism

Combinaton of zinc and selenium?

Im on levothyroxine 25mcg.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I don't know. I saw. Lot of invalidated opinion. Many of us have to watch our tendency to respect people we don't understand. Perhaps they are just cranks.

 

[BeBetter]

This is a very interesting thread. I can see it's going to take me a long time to really understand it all, but I see that it connects a lot of dots that I have read about over the years.

I didn't know about the connection between zinc and bicarbonate. Very interesting. Very helpful.

Causes of Pancreatic (Digestive) Dysfunction

1) Too many refined foods, too many combinations at a meal, eating between meals, can all overwork the pancreas and eventually exhaust it.

2) Over production of HCl and pepsin (see stomach chapter) will make the pancreas overwork and eventually exhaust it.

3) Nerve pressure in mid thoracic spine or cranial dysfunction irritating the vagus nerve can cause dysfunction (see Appendix A).

4) A vitamin B deficiency from bad diet or from eating refined products such as white sugar, and white flour (they use up vitamin B in their digestion), vitamin B is necessary for pancreatic enzyme production. These foods also are very acidic and thus overstimulate the pancreas.

5) Hypochlorhydria will lead to a less acidic chyme. This will cause decreased secretin output and thus decreased pancreatic output and perhaps incomplete digestion as a result. The primary cause, the hypochlorhydria in this case, needs correction for the pancreas to be corrected.

6) Deficiency in the diet or malassimilation of zinc (it is needed to form bicarbonate) can lead to not enough bicarbonate formation.

7) Taking sodium bicarbonate or other antacids can neutralize stomach contents and as in #5 lead to decreased pancreatic output as a secondary condition.

So the way to increase bicarbonate is through pancreatic output, not taking sodium bicarbonate.

 

[BeBetter]

Adequate zinc along with a good zinc:copper ratio in the diet would seem to help raise bicarbonate output by the pancreas.

Also important would be adequate secretion of secretin. The acidity of the chyme is important. Does anyone have other advice regarding secretin?

What else could be wrong with the pancreas that would cause it to not secrete bicarbonate?

 

[BeBetter]

A study on the involvement of Ca2+ influx related to histamine and nitric oxide.

Nitric oxide production in human endothelial cells stimulated by histamine requires Ca2+ influx.

"membrane depolarization, achieved by increasing the extracellular K+ concentration from 5 to 130 mM, reduced both the amplitude of histamine-induced sustained [Ca2+]i elevation and NO production."

And a study that shows endotoxin entry is Ca2+ dependent, too.

Calcium flux and endothelial dysfunction during acute lung injury: a STIMulating target for therapy

And from way back on page 3 or 4 of this thread, it's about respiratory acidosis. "Tested about 100 people the last month for arterial blood gases. 80% --high CO2 20% low CO2. Since in respiratory acidosis you cant take calcium it will go right into your cell and lower already low metabolic rate.


In respiratory acidosis which is 80% of population , your metabolic rate is lowered on purpose not to produce extra CO2 from metabolism. You calcium goes up in the cell, magnesium goes up in the cell, sodium and potassiuum kept low in the cell. This is done on purpose .

 

[Ron J]

Has anyone discussed the points made by gbolduev with Ray Peat?

 

[lollipop]

Has anyone discussed the points made by gbolduev with Ray Peat?

Good question. I wish someone would.

 

[tomisonbottom]

Another way to raise ceruloplasmin is to lower iron. Since iron and copper partly substitute for each other in cells, when you lower iron the body will compensate by increasing ceruloplasmin to get copper into the cells instead. But I would be careful when lowering iron since it seems to have a sweet spot. Iron saturation below 20% makes people very fatigued. IMO opinion Peat's recommendations on lowering iron should have a lower bound as well. He said below 25% saturation is good, but he did not say if below 20% is also good. In my experience and people I have seen, iron saturation below 20% results in poor blood oxygenation, fatigue and direct symptoms of iron deficiency. In addition, once iron saturation drops below 20%, in most people transferrin and TIBC will go above the upper limit of the normal range. If the normal range is to be taken seriously then this would indicate that the body interprets iron saturation below 20% to be a state of deficiency even though other hematological parameters like CBC come back normal.
Just my 2c.

I have below 20% iron saturation and definitely deal with fatigue. My last test said I was at 13%. Is red meat the best way to increase it? This is what my iron was on my last labs:

Iron 48 ug/dL (normal range; 39-167)
F Iron Binding Cap 370 ug/dL (normal range 225-405)
F IBC Saturation 13 % (normal range 15-50 %)

 

[tara]

Is red meat the best way to increase it?

I think you can get even higher concentrations from fresh liver, esp. if you drink fresh ripe OJ with it. But red meat is probably a good source too.

 

[haidut]

I have below 20% iron saturation and definitely deal with fatigue. My last test said I was at 13%. Is red meat the best way to increase it? This is what my iron was on my last labs:

Iron 48 ug/dL (normal range; 39-167)
F Iron Binding Cap 370 ug/dL (normal range 225-405)
F IBC Saturation 13 % (normal range 15-50 %)

Peat has been recommending over email liver to people with low ferritin or other proven iron deficiency. Combining with OJ will probably improve the iron absorption even more.

 

[Dan W]

I have below 20% iron saturation and definitely deal with fatigue. My last test said I was at 13%. Is red meat the best way to increase it?

Peat has been recommending over email liver to people with low ferritin or other proven iron deficiency.

A couple other things to add to the iron deficiency list (I have similar low-ish iron labs after years of low iron consumption, blood draws/donation, etc):

1. Watch the timing of calcium consumption (Giraffe's comparison is useful before taking the studies at face value)
2. *Possibly* temporarily restricting aspirin.

I'm personally considering eating more strawberries, seeds be damned. Mainly because I love them and they're convenient frozen, but also because they're both relatively high in iron and vitamin C (which I think might be the most helpful with non-heme iron sources?).

[mods, maybe the iron posts are worthy of splitting into a separate "fixing iron deficiency" type thread?]

 

[tomisonbottom]

A couple other things to add to the iron deficiency list (I have similar low-ish iron labs after years of low iron consumption, blood draws/donation, etc):

1. Watch the timing of calcium consumption (Giraffe's comparison is useful before taking the studies at face value)
2. *Possibly* temporarily restricting aspirin.

I'm personally considering eating more strawberries, seeds be damned. Mainly because I love them and they're convenient frozen, but also because they're both relatively high in iron and vitamin C (which I think might be the most helpful with non-heme iron sources?).

[mods, maybe the iron posts are worthy of splitting into a separate "fixing iron deficiency" type thread?]

Thanks Dan. That's interesting. I do like strawberries, but never realized they were high in iron! I think I'm in a similar situation, years of avoiding iron, drinking milk, taking aspirin. I had some liver yesterday and did feel a bit better waking up today, so I think I'm gonna try the frozen liver thing. I feel like I'm low in A, anyway.

 

[yerrag]

At some point in this thread there was talk of Kelly, and there was talk of metabolic typing and about Ray Peat's ideas applying only to a metabolic type called "fast oxidizers." I was once on a metabolic typing diet for fast oxidizers as I was typed as one. It worked for me and I would feel good about deal more protein with my meals, and would not feel well not eating enough protein. I always had trouble with taking anything that is sugary without any protein to go with it. It would resort shortly with sugar lows and I would either feel sleepy or feel hungry, or get cantankerous, or sneeze and easily become susceptible to another bout of allergic rhinitis. When I had to drive for 7 hours from Cincinnati to Rochester, NY, I would start shaking after 3 hours, and I later on fixed it by making sure I had brought along with me beef jerky to chew on, and I would make the trip easily, stopping only for a bathroom break.

I thought I had my condition all figured out and proclaimed that metabolic typing is the be all and end all. Until I read up on Peat, and slowly understood why my body acted that way. But before I read Peat, I had already started to reject the use of fish oils and PUFAs, and if I recall correctly, I had been only using coconut oil for cooking and using VCO for supplementation. When I started to read Ray Peat, I learned that he also was saying the same thing about PUFAs, which got me more into reading his articles and into this forum.

But I was somewhat repelled by his talk about how good sugar is, after my bad episodes with sugar. But my conversion came about as a result of doing a test that I wouldn't have done before. It was to see how one tablespoon of real honey would do to me. Since honey has plenty of fructose, I wanted to test Ray's statement that fructose will be readily metabolized. If true, the fructose would be absorbed and go into my blood stream, and it will used by my body. And if the fructose is used, the sugar won't accumulate in my blood, and my blood sugar won't spike and cause an insulin reaction, which would cause my blood sugar to drop, and cause me to be hypoglycemic.

Sure enough, I felt more energetic instead of experiencing a sugar low. I confirmed what Ray was saying with this test. Also, I began to question whether it was right for me to continue putting myself under a metabolic type as a "fast oxidizer." I started to ask myself why I act like a fast oxidizer. As a fast oxidizer, I burn carbs very quickly and I need to take more protein and fats so that it will slow down the rate at which I burn carbs. But I also understand that metabolic typing does not pigeonhole me into a type forever, as it also states that over time, as I adjust my lifestyle with taking food and supplementation that is specifically for my metabolic type, I will eventually become a "balanced" type. Knowing that being a fast oxidizer is simply a sub-optimal type that can be corrected, I began to think that being a type other than balanced is something that can be fixed by a lifestyle change. And Ray Peat's ideas began to sonehow intersect with this idea.

I started to see metabolic typing and Ray Peat's ideas as just different ways of achieving a state of homeostatis. Whereas Kelly's solution was to guide each metabolic type into a set of type-appropriate food and supplementation for short-term well-being while slowly making changes to the body into a common state of homeostatis as an end, with the focus not so much on the why's and much more on the end result; Ray Peat was focused more on the why's a condition exists and on what mechanism can be used to correct a condition, taken as a systemic whole and seeing the forest as well as the trees, the better it is to put all these in a clear light and in a coherent manner so that achieving homeostatis becomes reality by understanding it as a whole.

The people in this forum, I think, prefer to understand their way to health, rather than follow rules set out by a guru on their way to their health nirvana. I have difficulty using homeopathy not understanding why a particular remedy works here and not there, and why stronger dilutions make something more powerful, for example. I also don't like going to a TCM doctor, and be told to brew a bag of unknown mixture of herbs. I prefer to not blindly follow and not ask questions.

I enjoyed this discussion until page 7, and had to post my thoughts. Now I'll go back to reading the rest of the thread.

 

[yerrag]

Can anyone tell me how arterial CO2 and venous CO2 compares at any given time for a person, in terms of pCO2?

I see a reading of 33 mm pCO2 on venous blood. I was told there is no basis for seeing that as alkalosis, because only pCO2 for arterial blood is used as basis for that determination. But if arterial blood CO2 is always lower than venous blood CO2, then the arterial blood pCO2 would be lower than 33mm, right? Any thoughts?

 

[yerrag]

Here's an answer from Quora: https://www.quora.com/Why-is-carbon-dioxide-more-in-venous-blood-than-arterial-blood

A response from a member, Pat Harkin says "pCO2 is higher in systemic venous blood than in systemic arterial blood - but it is lower in pulmonary venous blood than pulmonary arterial blood."

So, to the condition of venous pCO2 at 33mm, the arterial pCO2 has to be < 33mm, right? Would this mean a condition then of respiratory alkalosis?

 

[peep]

Hey man, one thing did not make sense to me. If you take progesterone , you say it inhibits pituitary release of ACTH. YES. but to me that happens since you just gave cortisols raw food and cortisol went up.
I dont get how progesterone inhibits cortisol , I get how it inhibits ACTH. DHEA will also increase cortisol if you take more than you need. people here are taking pregnenolone and DHEA like 150 Mg and DHEA like 25 . LMAO You are missing very little amounts of this stuff. Any amount that is over what you are missing will increase cortisol and estrogen. That is exactly why you get acne and hairloss on pregnenolone and DHEA. There is no feed back cycle on these, Most of it will be converted into something))) and it will drain cofactors like crazy.


If you are low on pregnenolone , that is probably a problem of converting B5 into its active form which is easily solved with pantethine. Some people are low on vitamin C , in this case all pregnenolone will be directed into making aldo . But it will be stuck at the stage of progesterone and unused causing very bad reactions.Since high progesterone is NOT GOOD.




To me cortisol is needed and many people stuck with high cortisol need it even higher . Why do you think they are stuck with it. Body is trying so hard to solve a problem with inflammation or with chelation . Cortisol is a chelator , it is one of its functions. Cortisol is anti inflammatory it it is raised to get rid of inflammation.


Lets say you have cortisol at 500 but your body wants it higher , you just dont have enough progesterone.
your body needs cortisol at 1500 to completely get rid of inflammation or get its jobs done with chelating of metals. Then you give your body progesterone , it raises cortisol like crazy gets it done and lowers cortisol afterwards to norm. But how progesterone antagonizes cortisol BEATS me.)))




May be you can shed some light on this info Haidut . May be I am missing something here.

@gbolduev

But how do you think it works with Inflammatory Bowel Diseases where Inflammation is most likely always high?

Is it better to increase Cortisol even more / is the body missing progesterone?

 

[yerrag]

I think this might explain everyone's confusion? in human phys we learned to calculate H+ and PaCO2 using this :

PCO2 = [HCO3 - ] x [H+] / 24

Type it into your calculator like this: pCO2 = HCO3 X (10 to the exponent (9 - pH)) / 24

Here are a couple of examples:

HCO3 = 29 mEq/L
pH = 7.45
then calculated pCO2 = 42.87

HCO3 = 24 mEq/L
pH = 7.35
then calculated pCO2 = 44.67

So in other words, you can have a high bicarbonate and a low CO2, if you have a higher blood pH (first example).his

You can also have a low bicarbonate and a high CO2, if you have a lower blood pH (second example).

Is this formula robust? The reason I ask is that it doesn't seem to take into account the effect of lactic acid in the blood pH.

 

[Motif]

Anybody followed recommendations of gbolduev ?